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Are mass shootings and higher gun deaths an acceptable part of a free society?

Are mass shooting inevitable in a free society?


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  • Poll closed .

Howler63

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We live in a country in which we are guaranteed the right to bear arms in order to defend ourselves and our property. In order to maintain that right we sometimes must deal with mass shootings. Are these shootings a necessary part, or an inevitable side effect of that right?
 

Casper

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We live in a world in which we are guaranteed the right to bear arms in order to defend ourselves and our property. In order to maintain that right we sometimes must deal with mass shootings. Are these shootings a necessary part, or an inevitable side effect of that right?

They are so long as we ignore the mental heath issue so in need of being addressed. To suggest that the 2nd A should be thrown out or neutered without dealing with the actual cause of the problem is not honest or worth consideration.
 

mak2

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There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.
 

Josie

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Anyone who thinks gun control laws will stop mass killings is delusional.
 

Howler63

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They are so long as we ignore the mental heath issue so in need of being addressed. To suggest that the 2nd A should be thrown out or neutered without dealing with the actual cause of the problem is not honest or worth consideration.

Interesting point as well is the prevalence of SRI's need FAR MORE research and study.
 

Howler63

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There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.

Do you suppose a mental health program have stopped the Orlando nut?
 

mak2

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I don't know. IT sounds like he was exhibiting s/s even back in middle school. Threatening to bring a gun to school, wasn't it?
Do you suppose a mental health program have stopped the Orlando nut?
 

MaggieD

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We live in a country in which we are guaranteed the right to bear arms in order to defend ourselves and our property. In order to maintain that right we sometimes must deal with mass shootings. Are these shootings a necessary part, or an inevitable side effect of that right?

Freedom is not free, as they say. I'd say it's not an INEVITABLE side effect, but certainly a side effect. Nuts come in lots of shapes and sizes. Perhaps we can do a better job of sorting them out.
 

EvaPeron

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I think the question is so simplistic that to answer it as posed has no real meaning. It would be like saying - because we live in a global world is ISIS terrorism a necessary part or an inevitable side effect? It is neither necessary nor inevitable.

Look at the weekly death toll in Chicago. Why is no one really focusing on that? They have tight gun laws but criminals don't care about that. They don't say "oh my, I've got to turn my gun in because it isn't legal." And they never will. The actions of these people both in Mass shootings or in any shooting is so much more complex. Government wants to put a band-aide on the problem by saying it is all about gun rights. Remember, Gun rights have been in existence since our country was founded. We have enacted more and more laws to protect against purchases of guns by people who would be mentally ill etc. Criminals can't buy guns legally. We have mandatory waiting periods. We limit automatic weapons like machine guns etc. And all of this has just led to more mass shootings than ever before. Chicago is not unlike NY in years past. It takes a strong criminal system - a commitment to stop the criminals and clean up the system - a mentality to blame the individual(s) not the weapon, not the circumstance, not the timeframe.
 

Van Basten

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Yes, but there is a line.

Where that line is would be the debate that needs to be had.
 

Howler63

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I think the question is so simplistic that to answer it as posed has no real meaning. It would be like saying - because we live in a global world is ISIS terrorism a necessary part or an inevitable side effect? It is neither necessary nor inevitable.

Look at the weekly death toll in Chicago. Why is no one really focusing on that? They have tight gun laws but criminals don't care about that. They don't say "oh my, I've got to turn my gun in because it isn't legal." And they never will. The actions of these people both in Mass shootings or in any shooting is so much more complex. Government wants to put a band-aide on the problem by saying it is all about gun rights. Remember, Gun rights have been in existence since our country was founded. We have enacted more and more laws to protect against purchases of guns by people who would be mentally ill etc. Criminals can't buy guns legally. We have mandatory waiting periods. We limit automatic weapons like machine guns etc. And all of this has just led to more mass shootings than ever before. Chicago is not unlike NY in years past. It takes a strong criminal system - a commitment to stop the criminals and clean up the system - a mentality to blame the individual(s) not the weapon, not the circumstance, not the timeframe.

If, however, we go the way of say...Australia, a gun free nation (more or less) we wouldn't have these mass shootings anywhere near the level of today. But is that a price we're willing to pay?
 

matchlight

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Gun rights have been in existence since our country was founded.

Even before that, in fact. The Supreme Court has made clear that the individual right to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment predates the Constitution and does not depend on it for its existence. That right was well-established in England by the end of the 1600's, and the British subjects who came to America had also recognized it here.
 

jonny5

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We live in a country in which we are guaranteed the right to bear arms in order to defend ourselves and our property. In order to maintain that right we sometimes must deal with mass shootings. Are these shootings a necessary part, or an inevitable side effect of that right?

There is no such thing as complete security, so yes, violence is inevitable.
 

VanceMack

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Tis a silly question. As was seen in Paris, motivated individuals have no problem securing the means to commit mass murder.
 

VanceMack

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There are ways to make them occur less often, but I don't think we will ever stomp them out completely. A good mental health system would be a start.
Everyone keeps saying that, but there is no indication that mental health care would have stopped the Orlando attack. San Bernardino was committed by terrorists with guns secured by a friend. James Holmes and Adam Lanza were already receiving psychiatric care. There is no problem with available psychiatric care, psychiatric care does not disqualify one from constitutional rights, and where a clinical provider has a reasonable and actionable belief that people are at risk there is already a requirement for reporting.

What would you like to see changed within the mental health care system?
 

mak2

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Uh, lets see...we have no chronic care mental health system.
Everyone keeps saying that, but there is no indication that mental health care would have stopped the Orlando attack. San Bernardino was committed by terrorists with guns secured by a friend. James Holmes and Adam Lanza were already receiving psychiatric care. There is no problem with available psychiatric care, psychiatric care does not disqualify one from constitutional rights, and where a clinical provider has a reasonable and actionable belief that people are at risk there is already a requirement for reporting.

What would you like to see changed within the mental health care system?
 

PoS

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Mass shootings remain as statistical anomalies. The actual violent crime rate in the country has gone down and we have been the safest society in 40 years. The problem is the over sensationalism by the media that portrays things as actually worse than it is.
 

VanceMack

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True, but not even close to the numbers we see in America. Right? Not such a silly question after all, is it?
There are on average 1-2 'mass shootings' a year in a country with approx 120 million gun owners. France on the other hand experienced 2 mass shootings in that same year (along with 8 other terrorist attacks). In those 2 attacks alone there were 150 dead and 374 wounded. This in a country of 66 million (1/6th the population of the US) and with total bans on the guns.

Fair comparison?
 

VanceMack

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Uh, lets see...we have no chronic care mental health system.
Holy **** dood...give me something more than a catch phrase you heard from somebody somewhere and give me some sort of feel as to what you would like to see and how they would even apply. Stop talking in platitudes. If you are talking systems care, how would that have stopped the Orlando terrorist attack? How would it have stopped the San Bernardino terrorist attack? What level of intervention would you like to see in a chronic care model? Do you want the courts involved (you DO realize that a judge is required to remove someones constitutional rights...correct?). With that model engaged what do you do with all the children seized from homes where someone is determined to be 'at risk'? What level of care and intervention? 72 hour inpatient holds? 2 week? 6 month? Local behavioral health services? State run commitment facilities? And how does that prevent ANYONE that already is in possession of weapons from going to the zoo? For that matter, how does it prevent the nearly half of the documented incidents of 'mass shootings' in the US that involve stolen or illegally obtained weapons?
 

Howler63

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There are on average 1-2 'mass shootings' a year in a country with approx 120 million gun owners. France on the other hand experienced 2 mass shootings in that same year (along with 8 other terrorist attacks). In those 2 attacks alone there were 150 dead and 374 wounded. This in a country of 66 million (1/6th the population of the US) and with total bans on the guns.

Fair comparison?

Very. But let's fold in Australia, and Canada. Now the picture becomes clear. These shooting, hell, ALL shooting happen more frequently in America. And bear in mind, I see it as being the price of freedom. Just as car accidents are a part of driving.
 

VanceMack

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Very. But let's fold in Australia, and Canada. Now the picture becomes clear. These shooting, hell, ALL shooting happen more frequently in America. And bear in mind, I see it as being the price of freedom. Just as car accidents are a part of driving.
If you are folding in ALL shootings then you have to go to the unavoidable. The VAST majority of shootings in this country involve inner city gangs. That isnt a comparable environment for comparison to Canada or Australia. Australia is an Island nation of 23 million without a large illegal immigration problem and without anything even closely resembling our gang problem. Even with an easily enforceable border, Australia DOES still have illegal guns being smuggled in and being used (bike gangs seem to be growing as do aboriginal gangs). Lets be really clear...I'm not saying they are ANYTHING comparable to our statistics...but then...they never were. Thats why the comparison fails.

You COULD point to a reduction in firearms related suicide deaths in Australia since the ban, but then that comparison fails because the suicide rate there is HIGHER than in the US and they have found just as efficient and just as lethal means. All that proves is that suicidal people kill themselves.
 

mak2

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It is not a catch phrase. We have not had a chronic healthcare system since the early 90's I think it was. We are talking about decreasing the incidence of mass shootings in the future. One means that might have some effect on that is to have a long term mental healthcare system that gets and helps keep people on their meds. Less crazy people out there that would shoot up a movie theater, the less likely is it to happen.
Holy **** dood...give me something more than a catch phrase you heard from somebody somewhere and give me some sort of feel as to what you would like to see and how they would even apply. Stop talking in platitudes. If you are talking systems care, how would that have stopped the Orlando terrorist attack? How would it have stopped the San Bernardino terrorist attack? What level of intervention would you like to see in a chronic care model? Do you want the courts involved (you DO realize that a judge is required to remove someones constitutional rights...correct?). With that model engaged what do you do with all the children seized from homes where someone is determined to be 'at risk'? What level of care and intervention? 72 hour inpatient holds? 2 week? 6 month? Local behavioral health services? State run commitment facilities? And how does that prevent ANYONE that already is in possession of weapons from going to the zoo? For that matter, how does it prevent the nearly half of the documented incidents of 'mass shootings' in the US that involve stolen or illegally obtained weapons?
 

Howler63

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If you are folding in ALL shootings then you have to go to the unavoidable. The VAST majority of shootings in this country involve inner city gangs. That isnt a comparable environment for comparison to Canada or Australia. Australia is an Island nation of 23 million without a large illegal immigration problem and without anything even closely resembling our gang problem. Even with an easily enforceable border, Australia DOES still have illegal guns being smuggled in and being used (bike gangs seem to be growing as do aboriginal gangs). Lets be really clear...I'm not saying they are ANYTHING comparable to our statistics...but then...they never were. Thats why the comparison fails.

You COULD point to a reduction in firearms related suicide deaths in Australia since the ban, but then that comparison fails because the suicide rate there is HIGHER than in the US and they have found just as efficient and just as lethal means. All that proves is that suicidal people kill themselves.

I did not know that last part. Is that true? It's even higher now than before the ban?
 

Grand Mal

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There are on average 1-2 'mass shootings' a year in a country with approx 120 million gun owners. France on the other hand experienced 2 mass shootings in that same year (along with 8 other terrorist attacks). In those 2 attacks alone there were 150 dead and 374 wounded. This in a country of 66 million (1/6th the population of the US) and with total bans on the guns.

Fair comparison?

By most definitions, a mass shooting involves four or more victims. Is that fair?

Mass shootings in America: The big picture in charts and graphs - CNN.com

Don't get me wrong- I'm not arguing for trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I'm just trying for accuracy here.
 
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