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Are liberal democrats violating the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

aociswundumho

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From Article 26, Section 3:

UDHR said:
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.
Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.
 

ttwtt78640

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From Article 26, Section 3:



Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.
A big problem with the voucher system is the lack of "fairness" which would result. Public schools (generally) pretend that a child aging one year is reason (cause?) to place them into the next grade level - private schools (generally) do not.

Private schools tend to have admission, promotion and behavior standards which are far more strict (selective?) than public schools have. How, exactly, would your voucher system account for letting private educational facilities maintain their different (better?) standards for student admission, promotion and behavior?

The reality is that some students/parents would clearly benefit from having that choice while others would not unless the government demands that private schools take and keep all students - turning them into the very thing that makes (many) public schools suck.
 

aociswundumho

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Public schools (generally) pretend that a child aging one year is reason (cause?) to place them into the next grade level - private schools (generally) do not.
Which way do you think is better?

Private schools tend to have admission, promotion and behavior standards which are far more strict (selective?) than public schools have. How, exactly, would your voucher system account for letting private educational facilities maintain their different (better?) standards for student admission, promotion and behavior?

They could have any standards they want. You are forgetting that 90% of kids currently attend public schools. If those public schools were abolished, the private market for education would explode, and there would be schools for just about every kind of kids, just like there is food, clothing, housing, phones, etc. for just about every kind of person.

The reality is that some students/parents would clearly benefit from having that choice while others would not unless the government demands that private schools take and keep all students - turning them into the very thing that makes (many) public schools suck.
In no way should private schools be forced to take all students. They should each have their own standards like they do now.
 

vegas giants

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From Article 26, Section 3:



Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.
You can choose anything you want.
 

chuckiechan

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A big problem with the voucher system is the lack of "fairness" which would result. Public schools (generally) pretend that a child aging one year is reason (cause?) to place them into the next grade level - private schools (generally) do not.

Private schools tend to have admission, promotion and behavior standards which are far more strict (selective?) than public schools have. How, exactly, would your voucher system account for letting private educational facilities maintain their different (better?) standards for student admission, promotion and behavior?

The reality is that some students/parents would clearly benefit from having that choice while others would not unless the government demands that private schools take and keep all students - turning them into the very thing that makes (many) public schools suck.
Its not about the kids, it’s about the teacher’s unions and political power. Thats why there is such a fight about charter schools and school choice. You can’t have taxpayers getting all uppity.
 

ttwtt78640

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Which way do you think is better?




They could have any standards they want. You are forgetting that 90% of kids currently attend public schools. If those public schools were abolished, the private market for education would explode, and there would be schools for just about every kind of kids, just like there is food, clothing, housing, phones, etc. for just about every kind of person.



In no way should private schools be forced to take all students. They should each have their own standards like they do now.
OK, given that bolded above freedom of choice on the private school's part, then what good is a voucher for a parent of someone who is now performing below grade level or refuses to study/behave? As parents of the better students opt their (better behaved?) children out of public schools that leaves those remaining in the public school system even worse off than they are now.
 

aociswundumho

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OK, given that bolded above freedom of choice on the private school's part, then what good is a voucher for a parent of someone who is now performing below grade level
I don't understand the question. Say I want to learn how to weld. What difference does it make as to how much knowledge I have when looking for a welding school to attend?


or refuses to study/behave?
What world do you live in where a private business must tolerate kids or adults who refuse to behave?


As parents of the better students opt their (better behaved?) children out of public schools that leaves those remaining in the public school system even worse off than they are now.

The idea is to abolish public schools completely.
 

vegas giants

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I don't understand the question. Say I want to learn how to weld. What difference does it make as to how much knowledge I have when looking for a welding school to attend?




What world do you live in where a private business must tolerate kids or adults who refuse to behave?





The idea is to abolish public schools completely.
Send your kids anywhere you want. But I'm not paying for your private school
 

ttwtt78640

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Its not about the kids, it’s about the teacher’s unions and political power. Thats why there is such a fight about charter schools and school choice. You can’t have taxpayers getting all uppity.
Somewhat true, but you can't deny that vouchers would allow (only?) the better students to opt into private schools while increasing the percentage of worse students left in the public school system.
 

bluesmoke

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From Article 26, Section 3:



Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.


Are you saying there should be a federally funded voucher system of some dollar amount based on similar maximum income requirements as with Sec8? You do realize Sec8 housing isn't exactly the "private" quality you imply the schooling would be.
 

ttwtt78640

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1) I don't understand the question. Say I want to learn how to weld. What difference does it make as to how much knowledge I have when looking for a welding school to attend?




2) What world do you live in where a private business must tolerate kids or adults who refuse to behave?





3) The idea is to abolish public schools completely.
1) Teaching a kid to weld is wonderful but not at the exclusion of teaching English, math and other subjects.

2) Exactly, yet why should the public schools not be able to impose those same standards?

3) Which is precisely why your brand of "school choice" is opposed. You want public funding of private entities (aka crony capitalism). That mission could also be accomplished by simply removing all school taxes, but you seem to want to keep the income redistribution alive and (essentially) privatize the public schools.
 

aociswundumho

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1) Teaching a kid to weld is wonderful but not at the exclusion of teaching English, math and other subjects.

2) Exactly, yet why should the public schools not be able to impose those same standards?

3) Which is precisely why your brand of "school choice" is opposed. You want public funding of private entities (aka crony capitalism). That mission could also be accomplished by simply removing all school taxes, but you seem to want to keep the income redistribution alive and (essentially) privatize the public schools.
1) I still don't understand the question you were asking. Could you rephrase it?

2) They should.

3) A voucher system is not crony capitalism. Do you consider food stamps to be crony capitalism?
 

ttwtt78640

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1) I still don't understand the question you were asking. Could you rephrase it?

2) They should.

3) A voucher system is not crony capitalism. Do you consider food stamps to be crony capitalism?
1) There was no question asked. The point was that removing any need to provide a complete basic HS education because Johnny just wants to learn how to weld (or preach the gospel) is insane.

2) Agreed.

3) Yes, since it allows morons to spend public funds foolishly.
 

AmNat

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From Article 26, Section 3:



Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.
For a voucher system to be successfully universalized, the law would need to regulate the prices private schools could charge. Also, given the Obama DoE's policy of accusing districts with semi-functional school discipline of "discrimination", and the fact that those laws are theoretically applicable to private schools, the discrimination laws would need to be repealed.
 

chuckiechan

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Somewhat true, but you can't deny that vouchers would allow (only?) the better students to opt into private schools while increasing the percentage of worse students left in the public school system.
So why force the good students to stay in crappy schools. When they leave, the teachers will have more time to spend on bad students, uh... teaching.
 

Acadia

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Somewhat true, but you can't deny that vouchers would allow (only?) the better students to opt into private schools while increasing the percentage of worse students left in the public school system.
I think that beats better students being stuck in a crappy school. It's a trade off.
 

ttwtt78640

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So why force the good students to stay in crappy schools. When they leave, the teachers will have more time to spend on bad students, uh... teaching.
They are incapable of teaching bad students, but are paid for pretending to do so since they can't get rid of them.
 

ttwtt78640

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I think that beats better students being stuck in a crappy school. It's a trade off.
Why spend anything on a crappy school? Folks have to wake up and admit that you can't force feed an education into someone's head. Move the just pretend students and the just pretend teachers into a just pretend school and then just pretend to fund it. ;)
 

Carjosse

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From Article 26, Section 3:



Seems to me a voucher system for education is the only way parents would have this "right to choose".


Compare a public housing project to the section 8 voucher system. A public housing project is owned by the government, just like a public school is owned by the government. The Section 8 system gets poor people out of terrible public housing projects and lets them find a place in private housing. A voucher for education would let parents pull their kids out of failing public schools and let them pay for a private school.
Did not read the details of it did you? All it means is that parents have the right to enroll their children in a private school, no where does it say a nation must provide funding or subsidies for it.

Maybe instead you should just invest in making public schools better. The government has no business giving a single cent to private schools.
 

TheEconomist

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The government has no business giving a single cent to private schools.
There is quite an extraordinary amount of businesses supplying goods and services to the government. Somehow, it makes sense to buy computers, whiteboards, markers, furniture, and books from private businesses and to contract the construction of school buildings to private businesses, but we draw the line at managing the school. That must be done by bureaucrats. It's completely ridiculous.

You shouldn't be worrying about whether or not someone profits from supplying goods and services to the government. You should be worried about how to get the biggest bang for your buck every time you use public funds. It's the only part that really matters, assuming you do want to go ahead and spend public funds in the first place. I think you would agree it would be idiotic to opt for publicly supplying a service if you can contract it out for cents on the buck in the name that we need to make sure some Jack can't buy a yacht or a mansion. I am not saying it would be necessarily the case with schooling, though having seen how bad a job government agencies do everywhere at almost everything, it wouldn't exactly shock me. To be fair, some of those problems are related to the needless obstacles we throw in the way of people who manage public services more than to the public aspect of the organization. One such obstacle is the insane difficulty of firing morons who underperform and kill morale. If a manager doesn't have much flexibility, whether or not he is motivated by profits doesn't matter: he can't do what he should be doing.


As for the issue of performance, it seems that self-selection plays a big role in forming successful students. If a school has a reputation of being highly demanding and tests students for admission, it will screen out every student who is not willing to put in the effort, who has behavior problems or whose parents are not interested in going through any kind of tedious process. It's not so much that you always get geniuses as the fact it's damn easy to disturb teaching. Just one idiot can waste it for 25 or 30 others in a classroom. It might explain why some private schools do so well: they have zero tolerance for misbehavior and people who don't want to put in an extra effort simply do not enroll.

As someone else put it, you can't cram education in the head of people who don't want to learn. Meanwhile, if you put them in the middle of others who do want to learn, you're screwing the others out of a decent education.
 
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