• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Are firearms the problem? [W:874]

Re: Are firearms the problem?

Ok, but what I am wondering is how you believe that you can determine one from the other with an MRI?
From what I have seen so far the MRI does not indicate a distinction, do you have evidence to the contrary?

There is research done for implicit murderers and psychopaths. Those would serve as grounds for fMRI checks. So yes there is research to suggest what I say.

I don't believe in ANY case that we should be removing people's rights based on what they may or may not do.

Now don't be a fool to care about psychopaths for they are incapable of returning this basic human response of caring back.

I think it is more obvious that you are simply scapegoating low hanging fruit

Please, I am from Europe. Make it at least a little bit more easier with these slangs on me bro! :shock:
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

The amendment process has been abandoned with the emergence of contemporary jurisprudence just as the budget has been abandoned with the idea of raising the debt limit. These liberal ideals will be the cornerstone of our collapse.


We agreed right up to the comment swayed off to "liberal ideals". I wouldn't limit this problem to liberals, I think both parties have abused the process to their benefit.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Let's be honest about what a firearm is.

I would define a firearm, in the context that it is most often used, as the most efficient way for an individual to project force. We hear firearms compared to cars, hammers and knives, but at the end of the day, all of those devices have legitimate other primary uses and when it comes to projecting force are much less efficient. Cars, while powerful and capable of causing tremendous damage are pretty hard to use to attack or defend ("Quick honey, someone is trying to break in and climb through the window,get the car!"). Hammers and knives, while fantastic weapons in their own right, usually require that the user place themselves in the vicinity of their victim, thereby being open to retaliation with the same or different weapon.

When you think about society we are surrounded by other people, some of which share our interests, other who do not.

When trying to convince people to do what you want, you have two ways to do it, through influence or force.

Removal of the firearm from society, (if it were possible), removes only the efficiency with which a person can project force, not the desire to do so. Since (I assert) it is impossible to remove firearms in our culture, even to a significant degree, their removal only denies those that would abide by a law to surrender their firearms their most efficient means of defending yourself from another who is using force in an attempt to persuade you.

The conversation, imo, shouldn't be about the right to own a firearm, but the conditions under which we should do so. We should keep in mind that laws are often a first step in shaping culture which, in most cases has a much larger effect on society.

I think responsible owners should step up and persuade their fellow firearm owners to be accountable for their weapons. I think that owners should be responsible for any and ALL weapons in their custody (within reasonable limitations of course). Any weapon that falls into the hands of a child or burglar, where little effort was required to take possession of it, the owner of that weapon should be severely reprimanded.

Now I'm sure this last paragraph will get many a firearms owner up in arms, but before you you go on the offensive, I didn't lay out everything I think, nor do I have all the solutions. At the end of the day I'm saying we should be open to a conversation about the best way to balance out rights to own a firearm against the right to be reasonably sure that your firearms won't end up in the hands of criminals or family members who intend to use them to cause harm to the innocent.

I have a home defense shotgun, mounted on the wall in a locked restraining device. It requires a 4 digit button combination to remove. It takes about 3-5 sec for me to get to it if my wife or I need it. I also have a pistol safe that requires about 4-6 sec to open and allows my choice of 5 fully loaded and ready to rock pistols.

To that anti-firearm crowd....

The failure of many a lawful gun owner to engage in a meaningful conversation about creating laws that prevent the purchasing of firearms without background checks and close loopholes or penalize those that fail to maintain custody of their weapons is a legitimate fear that any concession, no matter how much sense it makes may result in other concessions that make less sense.

Both sides should be working toward concessions that make living with firearms, something that is deeply ingrained in our culture and unlikely to go away, as safe as possible.

I've chosen a fairly centrist position and as such I expect to be attacked from the extreme on both sides.....The irony is, it is the extreme on both sides, in my opinion, that prevent us from making practical laws and changes in culture that would prevent many of the tragedies that we see today.

Thoughts?

No, firearms are not the problem.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Because of...?

That was just an opinion. I'll answer with a question. Is there evidence that fMRI can be used to predictably identify psychopaths? And more importantly, what is the rate of false positives?

Now, if there is, fantastic...Send me links to info if you have it, I'd be very interested to read it. I've read a lot about fMRI and how it relates to spiritual and religious feelings.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

fMRI is a very interesting idea, but one that is still years away from practical use.

At this point, I think it is as practical as basing a decision on the advice of a group of psychics suspended in some sort of sensory deprivation pool.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

At this point, I think it is as practical as basing a decision on the advice of a group of psychics suspended in some sort of sensory deprivation pool.

While the jury is still out for me as to the practical implications of using fMRI to uncover people's mental states of mind, a lot of work has been done in this field and there is a lot of peer reviewed data to support it's use.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

That was just an opinion. I'll answer with a question.

Socratic?

Is there evidence that fMRI can be used to predictably identify psychopaths? And more importantly, what is the rate of false positives?

First of all there is no need to predict at all (what do you mean?). The fMRI shows brain activity, and basically theirs is different. I do not think you know as much about fMRI's then for it for a change leaves less at guessing, predicting, and risking false positives, true negatives, etc.

Now, if there is, fantastic...Send me links to info if you have it, I'd be very interested to read it. I've read a lot about fMRI and how it relates to spiritual and religious feelings.

Yes there is and it is fantastic. I was going to send you links too, but then you hit me with your fMRI-spirituality and religious feelings thingy, that left me confused and uncertain whether you are serious enough. What is that all about? An fMRI sees people's souls does it?
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

While the jury is still out for me as to the practical implications of using fMRI to uncover people's mental states of mind, a lot of work has been done in this field and there is a lot of peer reviewed data to support it's use.

That is true!
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Yes there is and it is fantastic. I was going to send you links too, but then you hit me with your fMRI-spirituality and religious feelings thingy, that left me confused and uncertain whether you are serious enough. What is that all about? An fMRI sees people's souls does it?

I'm surprised you're not familiar I was being totally serious.

Using fMRI at the university of Chicago saw that the same areas of the brain were used to reason about one’s own beliefs and God’s beliefs, but different regions of the brain were used when reasoning about another person’s beliefs. In particular, reasoning about God’s beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person’s beliefs.

In other words, if you believe in God, you’re probably subconsciously endowing God with your beliefs (at least on controversial issues), and not the other way around.

Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

At this point, I think it is as practical as basing a decision on the advice of a group of psychics suspended in some sort of sensory deprivation pool.

Or as accurate as throwing darts at different medical conditions taped to the wall.....
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

As in all methods there are issue and fMRI is hardly a definitive way to base removal of rights on. A positive test in no way predicts what someone might do.

Furthermore just a quick wiki check brings up all sorts of issues:

Clinical use of fMRI still lags behind research use. Patients with brain pathologies are more difficult to scan with fMRI than are young healthy volunteers, the typical research-subject population. Tumors and lesions can change the blood flow in ways not related to neural activity, masking the neural HDR. Drugs such as antihistamines and even caffeine can affect HDR. Some patients may be suffering from disorders such as compulsive lying, which makes certain studies impossible. It is harder for those with clinical problems to stay still for long. Using head restraints or bite bars may injure epileptics who have a seizure inside the scanner.

Just saying
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Given the fact that governments are the number one cause of death (Hundreds of millions last century alone) tyranny and oppression it is not extreme to insist that the people be equally armed to protect their freedom. Freedom is more important than the small numbers of loss of life that we incur for it's assurance. Equally it is not extreme to insist that people have the right to defend themselves from those that simply will not follow any law that you wish to impose no matter how "Practical" you believe they are.

Actually I think (if you believe) god is the number one cause of death....

If you don't, then I'm going to go with lower respiratory illness that accounts for about 1.05M deaths per year according to the WHO, where war claimed on average about 378k lives per year from 1985-1994.

Ok, I'm being a wise ass...
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

I'm surprised you're not familiar I was being totally serious.

Using fMRI at the university of Chicago saw that the same areas of the brain were used to reason about one’s own beliefs and God’s beliefs, but different regions of the brain were used when reasoning about another person’s beliefs. In particular, reasoning about God’s beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person’s beliefs.

In other words, if you believe in God, you’re probably subconsciously endowing God with your beliefs (at least on controversial issues), and not the other way around.

Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs

Aha, sorry, it sounded like fMRI's see ghosts and spirituality with that tone earlier. This is more about perception, one's beliefs, and how egocentric God believers are when viewing others beliefs.

In any case here is the study about detecting predatory/psychopaths and affective/impulsive murderers:

Reduced prefrontal and increased subcortical brain functioning assessed using positron emission tomography in predatory and affective murderers - Raine - 1998 - Behavioral Sciences & the Law - Wiley Online Library
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Actually I think (if you believe) god is the number one cause of death....

If you don't, then I'm going to go with lower respiratory illness that accounts for about 1.05M deaths per year according to the WHO, where war claimed on average about 378k lives per year from 1985-1994.

Ok, I'm being a wise ass...

Actually your not far off, after governments, religions would be the next major cause of man inflicted death.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Or as accurate as throwing darts at different medical conditions taped to the wall.....

I guess nobody saw the "Minority Report" dig... Ah well, I only have to amuse myself.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Let's be honest about what a firearm is.

I would define a firearm, in the context that it is most often used, as the most efficient way for an individual to project force. We hear firearms compared to cars, hammers and knives, but at the end of the day, all of those devices have legitimate other primary uses and when it comes to projecting force are much less efficient. Cars, while powerful and capable of causing tremendous damage are pretty hard to use to attack or defend ("Quick honey, someone is trying to break in and climb through the window,get the car!"). Hammers and knives, while fantastic weapons in their own right, usually require that the user place themselves in the vicinity of their victim, thereby being open to retaliation with the same or different weapon.

When you think about society we are surrounded by other people, some of which share our interests, other who do not.

When trying to convince people to do what you want, you have two ways to do it, through influence or force.

Removal of the firearm from society, (if it were possible), removes only the efficiency with which a person can project force, not the desire to do so. Since (I assert) it is impossible to remove firearms in our culture, even to a significant degree, their removal only denies those that would abide by a law to surrender their firearms their most efficient means of defending yourself from another who is using force in an attempt to persuade you.

The conversation, imo, shouldn't be about the right to own a firearm, but the conditions under which we should do so. We should keep in mind that laws are often a first step in shaping culture which, in most cases has a much larger effect on society.

I think responsible owners should step up and persuade their fellow firearm owners to be accountable for their weapons. I think that owners should be responsible for any and ALL weapons in their custody (within reasonable limitations of course). Any weapon that falls into the hands of a child or burglar, where little effort was required to take possession of it, the owner of that weapon should be severely reprimanded.

Now I'm sure this last paragraph will get many a firearms owner up in arms, but before you you go on the offensive, I didn't lay out everything I think, nor do I have all the solutions. At the end of the day I'm saying we should be open to a conversation about the best way to balance out rights to own a firearm against the right to be reasonably sure that your firearms won't end up in the hands of criminals or family members who intend to use them to cause harm to the innocent.

I have a home defense shotgun, mounted on the wall in a locked restraining device. It requires a 4 digit button combination to remove. It takes about 3-5 sec for me to get to it if my wife or I need it. I also have a pistol safe that requires about 4-6 sec to open and allows my choice of 5 fully loaded and ready to rock pistols.

To that anti-firearm crowd....

The failure of many a lawful gun owner to engage in a meaningful conversation about creating laws that prevent the purchasing of firearms without background checks and close loopholes or penalize those that fail to maintain custody of their weapons is a legitimate fear that any concession, no matter how much sense it makes may result in other concessions that make less sense.

Both sides should be working toward concessions that make living with firearms, something that is deeply ingrained in our culture and unlikely to go away, as safe as possible.

I've chosen a fairly centrist position and as such I expect to be attacked from the extreme on both sides.....The irony is, it is the extreme on both sides, in my opinion, that prevent us from making practical laws and changes in culture that would prevent many of the tragedies that we see today.

Thoughts?
How about a bow and arrow?
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

Actually your not far off, after governments, religions would be the next major cause of man inflicted death.

they tend to be the same thing-children looking for authority and becoming enraged with others who reject their surrogate parent
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

How about a bow and arrow?

most bows sold in the USA are for hunting

but many are not-just as many firearms are intended for athletic competition

POLAND_DA1_5582.jpg



2013_690.jpg
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

You don't know that.... Just because nothing ever happens with the firearms of 99% of firearm owners doesn't mean they are all responsible. Many could be irresponsible and you just don't know it.

By your logic a firearm owner is responsible, unless something happens that causes them to be irresponsible, then their label changes. I'm saying that there are a lot more irresponsible owners out there who are just fortunate that the world isn't aware of yet.

THe number of gun owners and firearms is in the millions while the number of criminal activities combined with fatal accidents is in the thousands.So logic would dictate that 99% if firearm owners are responsible. Because if they were not responsible then accidents and criminal actives would be in the hundreds of thousands.

You can question my motives all you like, I support the second amendment and the right to own firearms. I have several. You want to see um just ask.

I see your kind on the internet all the time.People like you claim to support the 2nd amendment while supporting universal background checks which would pave the way for registration, claim to support the 2nd amendment while supporting magazine limits and bans on so called assault weapons, and claim to support the 2nd amendment while suggesting that people who paid their debt to society should be denied their constitutional right to keep and bear arms even though the Constitution says you can not infringe on his or her right to keep and bear arms.



That's the beautiful thing about the Constitution, it was created, not as a set of unchanging laws that can never be violated, but as a document that can be changed. Now I'm aware that many have attempted to work around it, to achieve their political goals. I don't support that either, even if the changes are something I support. I support respect of the constitutional process. I think of more people were willing to adhere to the process, there would be fewer cynical people like you.

Most anti-2nd amendment loons claim to support the 2nd amendment while making the claim that the constitution is a living document(liberal code for we do not need to go through the amendment process) or that they support the 2nd amendment and that it only gives you the right to arms that were around when the 2ndm amendment was written(while ignorant of the fact that repeating and multifiring arms, grenade launchers and other such weapons were around at the time).



How about agreeing never to tax or in any way impede ownership, through the taxation or banning of anything required to make legal firearms operate (the back door approach to banning firearms). Primers, brass, casings, reloading equipment....?
But we already have the right to not have a tax to impede ownership and to not have arms,ammo and their accessories banned That's what that whole shall not infringe means.The anti-2nd amendment side wouldn't be giving up anything.A promise to not further infringe on the 2nd amendment is not giving up anything.Its like saying give me your cake and I promise to not take anymore or your cake.
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

THe number of gun owners and firearms is in the millions while the number of criminal activities combined with fatal accidents is in the thousands.So logic would dictate that 99% if firearm owners are responsible. Because if they were not responsible then accidents and criminal actives would be in the hundreds of thousands.



I see your kind on the internet all the time.People like you claim to support the 2nd amendment while supporting universal background checks which would pave the way for registration, claim to support the 2nd amendment while supporting magazine limits and bans on so called assault weapons, and claim to support the 2nd amendment while suggesting that people who paid their debt to society should be denied their constitutional right to keep and bear arms even though the Constitution says you can not infringe on his or her right to keep and bear arms.





Most anti-2nd amendment loons claim to support the 2nd amendment while making the claim that the constitution is a living document(liberal code for we do not need to go through the amendment process) or that they support the 2nd amendment and that it only gives you the right to arms that were around when the 2ndm amendment was written(while ignorant of the fact that repeating and multifiring arms, grenade launchers and other such weapons were around at the time).




But we already have the right to not have a tax to impede ownership and to not have arms,ammo and their accessories banned That's what that whole shall not infringe means.The anti-2nd amendment side wouldn't be giving up anything.A promise to not further infringe on the 2nd amendment is not giving up anything.Its like saying give me your cake and I promise to not take anymore or your cake.

James,

You can be obtuse and continue to try to imagine me however you wish, that is your right.

-Cheers
 
Re: Are firearms the problem?

James,

You can be obtuse and continue to try to imagine me however you wish, that is your right.

-Cheers

His point is sound-we have lots of people who pretend to support the right but quickly want to bargain it away. If you support limitations that have no rational reason you don't support the right. IF you say 30 rounds is too much you have set the stage for 7 round limits.
 
Back
Top Bottom