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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies a legitimate issue?

Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?


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radcen

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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?

For his campaign and/or qualifications for public office.

I say no (though I did vote 'minor issue'). Certainly BK is not ideal, and it is generally avoided, but in today's world BK is as much a conscious business strategy as anything else. It's how you come out on the other end that matters, and Trump always seems to come out well at the other end. If anything, that might be indicative of his ability to "work the system" in order to succeed.

Doesn't mean I'm warming to trump, of course. I still believe he'd be a travesty overall. I just don't think this specific complaint is valid.
 
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justabubba

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absolutely an issue
bankruptcy represents fiscal failure
it is a response to making unwise financial decisions

sometimes, it can be justified as the only alternative one has when faced with a medical/wage calamity that was beyond the bankrupt debtor's control

but that is not the scenario for tRump's many trips to bankruptcy court
the donald exploits bankruptcy provisions to then exploit his creditors. he has recently commented how he looks for ways to pay his financial obligations at discounted pennies on the dollar. taking that debt into bankruptcy court is a mechanism to achieve that end. while it IS legal, i would find his use of it is not ethical. however, there are few things about tRump that one would find 'ethical'
 

reinoe

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There's a lot of invalid made up bull**** flung his way.
 

reinoe

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absolutely an issue
bankruptcy represents fiscal failure
it is a response to making unwise financial decisions

sometimes, it can be justified as the only alternative one has when faced with a medical/wage calamity that was beyond the bankrupt debtor's control

but that is not the scenario for tRump's many trips to bankruptcy court
the donald exploits bankruptcy provisions to then exploit his creditors. he has recently commented how he looks for ways to pay his financial obligations at discounted pennies on the dollar. taking that debt into bankruptcy court is a mechanism to achieve that end. while it IS legal, i would find his use of it is not ethical. however, there are few things about tRump that one would find 'ethical'

If you don't like "the system" then change the system. Trump didn't write the laws he's abiding by re:bankruptcy. Blame the politicians who wrote such laws. And the fact that Trump usually comes out of these bankruptcies smelling like a rose means that he's worked the system properly.
 

justabubba

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If you don't like "the system" then change the system. Trump didn't write the laws he's abiding by re:bankruptcy. Blame the politicians who wrote such laws. And the fact that Trump usually comes out of these bankruptcies smelling like a rose means that he's worked the system properly.

that is why i used the expression 'exploit'

the bankruptcy court is a very essential mechanism for debtors whose circumstance was created thru no fault of their own. that should not be discarded because those such as tRump instead use it to exploit their legitimate creditors

there are people who exploit easy access to food stamps/SNAP program. their exploitation of that program should not cause that beneficial program to be dismantled

however, we should recognize that tRump is in the same 'scoundrel' category as someone who exploits the food stamp program put in place to help the poor
 

joG

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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?

For his campaign and/or qualifications for public office.

I say no. Certainly BK is not ideal, and it is generally avoided, but in today's world BK is as much a conscious business strategy as anything else. It's how you come out on the other end that matters, and Trump always seems to come out well at the other end. If anything, that might be indicative of his ability to "work the system" in order to succeed.

Doesn't mean I'm warming to trump, of course. I still believe he'd be a travesty overall. I just don't think this specific complaint is valid.

It is an open question, how you would want to interpret his not honoring his debt. I really do not know enough about the exact details. But it certainly is something that might shine a light on the man's character much like other seemingly private things like a burned draft card, divorces, an abortion, sex with dependents or barroom brawls. So it may influence a voter's decision legitimately.
 

radcen

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absolutely an issue
bankruptcy represents fiscal failure
it is a response to making unwise financial decisions


sometimes, it can be justified as the only alternative one has when faced with a medical/wage calamity that was beyond the bankrupt debtor's control

but that is not the scenario for tRump's many trips to bankruptcy court
the donald exploits bankruptcy provisions to then exploit his creditors. he has recently commented how he looks for ways to pay his financial obligations at discounted pennies on the dollar. taking that debt into bankruptcy court is a mechanism to achieve that end. while it IS legal, i would find his use of it is not ethical. however, there are few things about tRump that one would find 'ethical'
This, to me, is now-invalid old-school thinking, at least as a blanket statement. There are plenty of people and businesses who did not make unwise financial decisions yet still face the reality of BK. It is not uncommon at all.

On the other hand, and to another of your points, there are also people who do indeed exploit the 'opportunity'. Trump probably balls into this category, I'll grant. I suppose one could ask, did he truly *need* to file BK, or was he just using/abusing the intent of the system?

Then that begs the question: If he was merely gaming the system, and not the financial failure so many claim, is that good or bad? Is it unethical to use the legal tools available to further oneself and/or one's business?
 

justabubba

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This, to me, is now-invalid old-school thinking, at least as a blanket statement. There are plenty of people and businesses who did not make unwise financial decisions yet still face the reality of BK. It is not uncommon at all.

On the other hand, and to another of your points, there are also people who do indeed exploit the 'opportunity'. Trump probably balls into this category, I'll grant. I suppose one could ask, did he truly *need* to file BK, or was he just using/abusing the intent of the system?

Then that begs the question: If he was merely gaming the system, and not the financial failure so many claim, is that good or bad? Is it unethical to use the legal tools available to further oneself and/or one's business?

if i would not consider loaning him money, near certain i would not receive all of it back
why in hell would i then give him my vote?!!
 

reinoe

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that is why i used the expression 'exploit'

the bankruptcy court is a very essential mechanism for debtors whose circumstance was created thru no fault of their own. that should not be discarded because those such as tRump instead use it to exploit their legitimate creditors

there are people who exploit easy access to food stamps/SNAP program. their exploitation of that program should not cause that beneficial program to be dismantled

however, we should recognize that tRump is in the same 'scoundrel' category as someone who exploits the food stamp program put in place to help the poor

Many people who abuse SNAP are engaging in criminal acts and the government doesn't have the resources to prosecute. Did Trump abuse bankruptcy in any criminal way?
 

radcen

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Many people who abuse SNAP are engaging in criminal acts and the government doesn't have the resources to prosecute. Did Trump abuse bankruptcy in any criminal way?
Probably not, but legal does not necessarily equate to ethical.
 

MrT

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I would argue that it is a serious issue and the Donald's comments this past weekend, recommending that the United States could borrow against its debt and negotiate its creditors into accepting a pay cut, illustrate why.

Mr. Trump has spent nearly all of his business time as a real estate developer. Real estate developers routinely borrow against their debt in order to fund additional ventures. If those ventures work out, you make a lot of money. If those ventures fail, then you have bankruptcy as a fall back position. And that system works, in the private sector. It does not work for sovereign nations.

The fact that Trump still seems to view everything governmental through the prism of the private business that is the sole basis of his "experience" necessitates that we analyze all of his business decisions. Especially given the fact that, apparently, he still thinks that all of those bankruptcies are a potential solution for America's problems at large.
 

cpwill

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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?

For his campaign and/or qualifications for public office.

I say no (though I did vote 'minor issue'). Certainly BK is not ideal, and it is generally avoided, but in today's world BK is as much a conscious business strategy as anything else. It's how you come out on the other end that matters, and Trump always seems to come out well at the other end. If anything, that might be indicative of his ability to "work the system" in order to succeed.

Doesn't mean I'm warming to trump, of course. I still believe he'd be a travesty overall. I just don't think this specific complaint is valid.

It was a minor issue until last week, when he confirmed that he viewed those experiences as something positive on which he would formulate policy. The idea that we can deliberately destabilize the dollar, "renegotiate" with bondholders, print our way out of trouble, and then buy back our own debt at discounted prices is....

Well, it's unprecedented. Because it's so amazingly stupid, that even socialists wouldn't try it. You'd have to be Bat-Guano to think that was a good idea. But Trump thinks he's the King Of Debt, so...
 

radcen

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I would argue that it is a serious issue and the Donald's comments this past weekend, recommending that the United States could borrow against its debt and negotiate its creditors into accepting a pay cut, illustrate why.

Mr. Trump has spent nearly all of his business time as a real estate developer. Real estate developers routinely borrow against their debt in order to fund additional ventures. If those ventures work out, you make a lot of money. If those ventures fail, then you have bankruptcy as a fall back position. And that system works, in the private sector. It does not work for sovereign nations.

The fact that Trump still seems to view everything governmental through the prism of the private business that is the sole basis of his "experience" necessitates that we analyze all of his business decisions. Especially given the fact that, apparently, he still thinks that all of those bankruptcies are a potential solution for America's problems at large.
It was a minor issue until last week, when he confirmed that he viewed those experiences as something positive on which he would formulate policy. The idea that we can deliberately destabilize the dollar, "renegotiate" with bondholders, print our way out of trouble, and then buy back our own debt at discounted prices is....

Well, it's unprecedented. Because it's so amazingly stupid, that even socialists wouldn't try it. You'd have to be Bat-Guano to think that was a good idea. But Trump thinks he's the King Of Debt, so...
Two good answers that have me rethinking my position. :thumbs:

ETA: It seems to be indicative of his mindset, and as you both say, how he would do business as President. Which is, I agree serious. My position up to this point had been that it wasn't that big a deal in and of itself.
 
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Casper

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One cannot toot ones horn when it comes to ones supposed business success and history as a qualification to hold office and then want ignore the parts of that history that do not reflect as well on their abilities. So Yes, the bankruptcies are important just as is their past statements and support on issues, even if they reveal that the person does not actually share the ideology of the group they want to represent. When one runs for public office they open ALL doors to their past history and it is up to those involved in the process to look behind all the doors to the candidates past before making a choice, as we can see some people are too lazy to open those doors.
 

justabubba

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Many people who abuse SNAP are engaging in criminal acts and the government doesn't have the resources to prosecute. Did Trump abuse bankruptcy in any criminal way?

and those who are found to be criminal are prosecuted, as are those who can be proven to exploit bankruptcy law
but there also those who exploit both systems but are either not identified, or the prosecutors are unable to meet the evidentiary test to secure a criminal prosecution. while they are not guilty, neither are they recognized to be 'innocent'

i believe 'scoundrel' is a term frequently used to describe such persons. and you have every right to vote for a scoundrel
 

cpwill

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This, to me, is now-invalid old-school thinking, at least as a blanket statement. There are plenty of people and businesses who did not make unwise financial decisions yet still face the reality of BK. It is not uncommon at all.

I've done some research into this, actually, and discovered that 100% of the businesses who went into bankruptcy were those who went into debt.

Debt is dangerous, and usually it's dumb. It puts you at risk, makes you a slave to the lender, and steals the ownership and joy from your dreams. :(

On the other hand, and to another of your points, there are also people who do indeed exploit the 'opportunity'. Trump probably balls into this category, I'll grant. I suppose one could ask, did he truly *need* to file BK, or was he just using/abusing the intent of the system?

Then that begs the question: If he was merely gaming the system, and not the financial failure so many claim, is that good or bad? Is it unethical to use the legal tools available to further oneself and/or one's business?

Trump's M.O. was to pay himself a massive salary, and then let the business fail for lack of cash. Generally I'd call that unethical, as I would call unethical his habit of refusing to pay contractors the agreed-upon price, banking on the fact that they would realize that it would be more expensive to drag him through years of litigation than to simply accept the losses.
 

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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?

For his campaign and/or qualifications for public office.

I say no (though I did vote 'minor issue'). Certainly BK is not ideal, and it is generally avoided, but in today's world BK is as much a conscious business strategy as anything else. It's how you come out on the other end that matters, and Trump always seems to come out well at the other end. If anything, that might be indicative of his ability to "work the system" in order to succeed.

Doesn't mean I'm warming to trump, of course. I still believe he'd be a travesty overall. I just don't think this specific complaint is valid.

Not only are they an issue, but so are the two times that Trump was bailed out by a Saudi prince.
 

Fiddytree

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Given that the fools backing Trump promote his business savvy and utter non-exposure to politics and policy: yes, yes, and yes.
 

CanadaJohn

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I should never be mistaken for someone who supports Donald Trump's run for the Presidency, but I think it's unfair to have an OP title and content that implies that Donald Trump has had personal bankruptcies. I don't believe that he has had even one personal bankruptcy although several of his business interests have failed at one time or another. Businesses fail in America hundreds of times a day and considering the vast number of business interests Trump has his finger in, it's not surprising that he would be connected with a business failure on occasion. It is important to note, however, that he doesn't put his personal wealth or assets on the line in such ventures and so is not in any danger of failing personally.

America was built and became great on the backs of people like Trump who dared to fail. To me, that's one of his better attributes, of which there are few.
 

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Are Donald Trump's multiple bankruptcies (BK) a legitimate issue?

For his campaign and/or qualifications for public office.

I say no (though I did vote 'minor issue'). Certainly BK is not ideal, and it is generally avoided, but in today's world BK is as much a conscious business strategy as anything else. It's how you come out on the other end that matters, and Trump always seems to come out well at the other end. If anything, that might be indicative of his ability to "work the system" in order to succeed.

Doesn't mean I'm warming to trump, of course. I still believe he'd be a travesty overall. I just don't think this specific complaint is valid.

Yes, it speaks to his character. He abused the law to get out of paying back debts which the business could afford to pay. Though how much of that was his direct actions, who knows?
 

jonny5

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I should never be mistaken for someone who supports Donald Trump's run for the Presidency, but I think it's unfair to have an OP title and content that implies that Donald Trump has had personal bankruptcies. I don't believe that he has had even one personal bankruptcy although several of his business interests have failed at one time or another. Businesses fail in America hundreds of times a day and considering the vast number of business interests Trump has his finger in, it's not surprising that he would be connected with a business failure on occasion. It is important to note, however, that he doesn't put his personal wealth or assets on the line in such ventures and so is not in any danger of failing personally.

America was built and became great on the backs of people like Trump who dared to fail. To me, that's one of his better attributes, of which there are few.

The problem is when they use bankruptcy to get out of paying for a failure. Like look at Solyndra. Borrow a bunch of money, fail, and creditors didnt get paid back. Same with GM. We loaned them 40 billion. They never paid it back.
 

radcen

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I've done some research into this, actually, and discovered that 100% of the businesses who went into bankruptcy were those who went into debt.

Debt is dangerous, and usually it's dumb. It puts you at risk, makes you a slave to the lender, and steals the ownership and joy from your dreams. :(



Trump's M.O. was to pay himself a massive salary, and then let the business fail for lack of cash. Generally I'd call that unethical, as I would call unethical his habit of refusing to pay contractors the agreed-upon price, banking on the fact that they would realize that it would be more expensive to drag him through years of litigation than to simply accept the losses.
Debt, in and of itself, is not necessarily unwise. So that doesn't really mean anything here.

Your other points regarding how HE managed his debt are valid, however.
 

radcen

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I should never be mistaken for someone who supports Donald Trump's run for the Presidency, but I think it's unfair to have an OP title and content that implies that Donald Trump has had personal bankruptcies. I don't believe that he has had even one personal bankruptcy although several of his business interests have failed at one time or another. Businesses fail in America hundreds of times a day and considering the vast number of business interests Trump has his finger in, it's not surprising that he would be connected with a business failure on occasion. It is important to note, however, that he doesn't put his personal wealth or assets on the line in such ventures and so is not in any danger of failing personally.

America was built and became great on the backs of people like Trump who dared to fail. To me, that's one of his better attributes, of which there are few.
Fair point. It was not intended to imply as much. My apologies.
 

DaveFagan

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Trump has shown good judgement at dediding when to bail out of various businesses. He has cleverly used the Bankruptcy law to put the burden upon the larger lenders, perhaps also known as, the Big Banks. Some say, "The bigger the Bank, the bigger the crook." Shades of grey, don't ya' know? Surely Trump's knowledge of debt and bankruptcy has to be useful in a Nation saddled with huge debt. If our Nation does not get some productive growth industries organized in the near term, I don't think the tax base will be able to continue to support the debt. You can't pay debt with debt forever.
 

TheDemSocialist

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If Donald Trump continues to bring up his "business record" and his "ability to make deals", then yes, yes it is a legitimate issue. Cant see why not.
 
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