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Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawal?

Are the dems in the senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a withdrawal date?

  • Yes, the terrorists know all they have to do it wait us out then.

    Votes: 34 61.8%
  • no, cut and run like we did in Nam is the best thing to do.

    Votes: 21 38.2%

  • Total voters
    55
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Navy Pride

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Are the democrats in the Senate giving aid and comfort to the enemy for asking for a deadline fro withdrawal from Iraq?
 

The Mark

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Hmm. A few more poll options would be nice.

And this poll is a little biased, cause you worded it in such a way that one would be inclined towards the first one to avoid saying that we should do what we did in vietnam.
 

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Re: Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawa

Were Republicans giving aid to the enemy in 1999?


"[The] President…is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W. Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years"
-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."
-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

"Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly."
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
 

Navy Pride

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The Mark said:
Hmm. A few more poll options would be nice.

And this poll is a little biased, cause you worded it in such a way that one would be inclined towards the first one to avoid saying that we should do what we did in vietnam.

Hey I just calls em as I sees em.........If we set a date to withdraw we are cutting and running and aiding the enemy just like we did nin Nam..........
 

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Navy Pride said:
Hey I just calls em as I sees em.........If we set a date to withdraw we are cutting and running and aiding the enemy just like we did nin Nam..........
I'd like to think that by doing so he is telling the current Iraqi government that they had better get off their butts and start fighting for themselves, because we are only going to help them so much more, and that is it.
I was in Vietnam, 68-69, and it was very disheartening to see all the young south Vietnamese men in town on their nifty thrifty honda fifty motorcycles instead of out in the field fighting. I spent my first 4 days and my last 4 days in Saigon, and most of the rest of it upriver just below the "parrots beak" or off of Hon Tre Island on an LST supporting PBR's and Huey gun ships.
There were too few locals out there, considering that it was their country.
The Shia need to step up and fight, or they will end up under the Suni thumb again.
 

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The flip has been flopped:

MODERATOR: New question. How would you go about as president deciding when it was in the national interest to use U.S. force, generally?

BUSH: Well, if it's in our vital national interest, and that means whether our territory is threatened or people could be harmed, whether or not the alliances are -- our defense alliances are threatened, whether or not our friends in the Middle East are threatened. That would be a time to seriously consider the use of force. Secondly, whether or not the mission was clear. Whether or not it was a clear understanding as to what the mission would be. Thirdly, whether or not we were prepared and trained to win. Whether or not our forces were of high morale and high standing and well-equipped. And finally, whether or not there was an exit strategy. I would take the use of force very seriously. I would be guarded in my approach. I don't think we can be all things to all people in the world. I think we've got to be very careful when we commit our troops. The vice president and I have a disagreement about the use of troops. He believes in nation building. I would be very careful about using our troops as nation builders. I believe the role of the military is to fight and win war and therefore prevent war from happening in the first place. So I would take my responsibility seriously. And it starts with making sure we rebuild our military power. Morale in today's military is too low. We're having trouble meeting recruiting goals. We met the goals this year, but in the previous years we have not met recruiting goals. Some of our troops are not well-equipped. I believe we're overextended in too many places. And therefore I want to rebuild the military power. It starts with a billion dollar pay raise for the men and women who wear the uniform. A billion dollars more than the president recently signed into law. It's to make sure our troops are well-housed and well-equipped. Bonus plans to keep some of our high-skilled folks in the services and a commander in chief that sets the mission to fight and win war and prevent war from happening in the first place.

BUSH: I agree our military is the strongest in the world today, that's not the question. The question is will it be the strongest in the years to come? Everywhere I go on the campaign trail I see moms and dads whose son or daughter may wear the uniform and they tell me about how discouraged their son or daughter may be. A recent poll was taken among 1,000 enlisted personnel, as well as officers, over half of whom will leave the service when their time of enlistment is up. The captains are leaving the service. There is a problem. And it's going to require a new commander in chief to rebuild the military power. I was honored to be flanked by Colin Powell and General Norman Schwartzkopf recently stood by me side and agreed with me. If we don't have a clear vision of the military, if we don't stop extending our troops all around the world and nation building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road, and I'm going to prevent that. I'm going to rebuild our military power. It's one of the major priorities of my administration.
 

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Now Bush's Senate allies demand an exit strategy

REPUBLICAN leaders in the Senate called on President Bush yesterday to set out a strategy allowing for a withdrawal of 160,000 American troops from Iraq.

The Senate’s Republican leadership, usually loyal to the White House, demanded that 2006 be a “significant transition” year in which Iraqi forces took the lead in securing their country, so that US troops could begin a phased withdrawal. The proposal by Bill Frist, the Republican Senate Leader, and John Warner, the veteran Virginian Republican and chairman of the powerful Armed Services Committee, was passed by 79 votes to 19.

It was almost identical to a Democrat proposal, but the Republicans rejected a Democrat amendment calling for “estimated dates” for withdrawal.
So, the same goal, one is just ambiguous about the estimated when. Now how is one that different enough to call it giving comfort to the enemy.
 

cnredd

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shuamort said:
The flip has been flopped:
The report is from 2000...

I wonder if anything has changed since then...

I can just imagine somebody in 1980 saying, "I can't just take a phone out of my pocket and call my wife."

I guess you'd bring up that quote today and call him a liar?...:roll:
 

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Re: Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawa

Just a question Navy Pride: Why did you bother to make this a poll? The entire point of a poll is to see where people stand on the issues; if you're going to make such obviously biased choices, you clearly aren't interested in that.

The correct answer, of course, is somewhere in between your two options. We can create a timetable for withdrawing American troops, while still keeping it open-ended enough to not give the insurgents a tactical advantage.
 

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cnredd said:
The report is from 2000...
What report? That was Bush's quote from 2000 in the presidential debates. He said those words without coercion. He said those words to show how different he was from the Clinton Administration.

cnredd said:
I wonder if anything has changed since then...
Could it be....a flip-flop? A change of heart? New information? Well, same grill was held to Kerry's face and now Bush skates without impunity? Me think not.

cnredd said:
I can just imagine somebody in 1980 saying, "I can't just take a phone out of my pocket and call my wife."

I guess you'd bring up that quote today and call him a liar?...:roll:
No, because at the time he couldn't. Of course, if that person stated in your strawman that "I will never just take a phone out of my pocket and call my wife." And then he did, well, THEN, he would be a liar. That's how the apples stack up.
 

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shuamort said:
No, because at the time he couldn't. Of course, if that person stated in your strawman that "I will never just take a phone out of my pocket and call my wife." And then he did, well, THEN, he would be a liar. That's how the apples stack up.
I can answer your whole comment in relation to this one phrase...

If someone stated "I will never..." that is because that person would be under the impression that certain factors would not appear to make him/her believe otherwise...If that person ended up using a "phone from his pocket" X years later, saying "I was wrong" would be a correct statement....

"I was lying when I said that" would not be correct...

Here's another..."I am not going to Harrisburg, PA Friday"...True statement...I've never been there before, and I have no intentions whatsoever of going there in the future...

Now what happens if, tomorrow, I get a phone call from the state saying that they found lost documentation from a grandparent that died in the sixties stating that his inheritance will go to last person that can keep the family's bloodline intact...which is me...$5 million dollars...They want me there Friday to sign documents and receive the check...

Did I say "a lie" in my original comment of "not going to Harrisburg, PA" if Friday morning I'm in a limo heading for the state's capital?

Of course not..
 

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Navy Pride said:
Are the democrats in the Senate giving aid and comfort to the enemy for asking for a deadline fro withdrawal from Iraq?
I personally don't think we should set a date of withdrawal because it essientially advocates a cut and run strategy before the Iraqi government can stand on it's own two feet. Leaving the new Iraqi government out to hang and dry like that will only bring more problems, more serious problems than what we already have, to our doorstep. We should only withdraw our troops until Iraq can successfully take care of it's own foreign and domestic security. I say this also making note of how I opposed the invasion of Iraq, but now that we have invaded, leaving too soon will only make our own situation much worse. If we leave too soon, we might have to go back to Iraq again.
 

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cnredd said:
I can answer your whole comment in relation to this one phrase...

If someone stated "I will never..." that is because that person would be under the impression that certain factors would not appear to make him/her believe otherwise...If that person ended up using a "phone from his pocket" X years later, saying "I was wrong" would be a correct statement....
Great. Now you can show me where Bush conceded his campaign idea.
cnredd said:
"I was lying when I said that" would not be correct...

Here's another..."I am not going to Harrisburg, PA Friday"...True statement...I've never been there before, and I have no intentions whatsoever of going there in the future...

Now what happens if, tomorrow, I get a phone call from the state saying that they found lost documentation from a grandparent that died in the sixties stating that his inheritance will go to last person that can keep the family's bloodline intact...which is me...$5 million dollars...They want me there Friday to sign documents and receive the check...

Did I say "a lie" in my original comment of "not going to Harrisburg, PA" if Friday morning I'm in a limo heading for the state's capital?

Of course not..
All of this aside, you don't see what Bush has done as a flip-flop or is all of this handwaving going somewhere?
 

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Re: Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawa

Kandahar said:
Just a question Navy Pride: Why did you bother to make this a poll? The entire point of a poll is to see where people stand on the issues; if you're going to make such obviously biased choices, you clearly aren't interested in that.

The correct answer, of course, is somewhere in between your two options. We can create a timetable for withdrawing American troops, while still keeping it open-ended enough to not give the insurgents a tactical advantage.
I am sorry but I think the choices are pretty clear.....If you don't leave or set a time table you are telling the terrorists that we will stay until the job is completed........If you set a time table you are saying the opposite and giving aid to the enemy.......

If you create a time table and it is not firm then it is not worth the paper its written on........
 

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shuamort said:
All of this aside, you don't see what Bush has done as a flip-flop or is all of this handwaving going somewhere?
It seemed to me that the stuff that you just set aside proved that it was completely normal for someone to change their mind if new opportunities and things showed up. If that is flip-flopping, then it is completely normal for such a thing to occur.

For example, if we accused the current president of flip-flopping by changing his priorities from what they were before 9/11 to what they were after.........well, IMO, it seems completely normal for someone to have done such a thing.

choke*.....can't hold it in........:rofl :lol: :mrgreen:..........:smile:
 

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The Mark said:
It seemed to me that the stuff that you just set aside proved that it was completely normal for someone to change their mind if new opportunities and things showed up. If that is flip-flopping, then it is completely normal for such a thing to occur.

For example, if we accused the current president of flip-flopping by changing his priorities from what they were before 9/11 to what they were after.........well, IMO, it seems completely normal for someone to have done such a thing.

choke*.....can't hold it in........:rofl :lol: :mrgreen:..........:smile:
Just cuttin' to the quick.
 

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Re: Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawa

shuamort never said that Bush lied.


shuamort said:
The flip has been flopped:
I think this was the point

shuamort said:
Could it be....a flip-flop? A change of heart? New information? Well, same grill was held to Kerry's face and now Bush skates without impunity? Me think not.

Now about the amendment the Republicans are claiming.

The Democrats (you know, those Democrats with no plans or ideas) came up with this proposal and the Republicans just edited it.

Reid Outlines Way Forward in Iraq, Previews Democrats Iraq Amendment


Mr. Warner (Senator John W. Warner, Republican of Virginia, chairman of the Armed Services Committee) said he decided to take the Democratic proposal and edit it to his satisfaction in an effort to find common ground between the parties on the issue.

It was almost identical to a Democrat proposal, but the Republicans rejected a Democrat amendment calling for “estimated dates” for withdrawal.

Senate Republicans Pushing for a Plan on Ending the War in Iraq
 

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shuamort said:
Great. Now you can show me where Bush conceded his campaign idea.
I don't know if I could pinpoint a moment in time when this "conceding" took place, but it obviously has considering that we are, indeed, nation-building...It would be a lie if he came out and said we weren't...

shuamort said:
All of this aside, you don't see what Bush has done as a flip-flop or is all of this handwaving going somewhere?
Not even close...

A "flip-flop" is when you've change you're stance EVEN THOUGH the circumstances have not changed...

If you said "I believe in the death penalty" 10 years ago, but you don't feel the same way today...That's not a flip-flop...Feeling different one way awhile ago and feeling 180 degrees the other way is hardly a flip-flop...Refer to Churchill's repeated ad nauseum quote about being a Liberal and being a Conservative...People can change...It's legal; I swear!...

Even if you didn't change, the situations around you can....Walk around your whole life saying the Death Penalty is wrong...If someone shot your parents and you started yelling that you want the culprit's head on a platter and DEMAND the Death Penalty, would it be fair to have the shuamorts of the world call you a liar?...:roll:

It WOULD be a flip-flop if you told one group of people that you don't believe in the death penalty on Tuesday, then told another group that you DO believe in it on Wednesday...Unless you can come up with some pretty heavy evidence to show how you're mind has changed in that small time frame, that pandering is a total "flip-flop"...

That's why I originally asked when I jumped into the debate if anything changed between the time of Bush's comments on nation-building(2000) and the time when "nation-building" started happening (2003)...

Uhhhhh...I'm going to with "Yes"...:2wave:
 
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Re: Are dems in the Senate giving aid to the enemy by asking for a date for withdrawa

scottyz said:
Were Republicans giving aid to the enemy in 1999?


"[The] President…is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation's armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy."
-Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA)

"American foreign policy is now one huge big mystery. Simply put, the administration is trying to lead the world with a feel-good foreign policy."
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy."
-Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of George W. Bush

"I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning...I didn't think we had done enough in the diplomatic area."
-Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)

"Well, I just think it's a bad idea. What's going to happen is they're going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years"
-Joe Scarborough (R-FL)

"I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our overextended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today"
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)

"Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?"
-Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99

"Victory means exit strategy, and it's important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is."
-Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)

"This is President Clinton's war, and when he falls flat on his face, that's his problem."
-Senator Richard Lugar (R-IN)

"Bombing a sovereign nation for ill-defined reasons with vague objectives undermines the American stature in the world. The international respect and trust for America has diminished every time we casually let the bombs fly."
-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
Do you have sources for those quotes?
 
H

hipsterdufus

Yes, the terrorists know all they have to do it wait us out then.
no, cut and run like we did in Nam is the best thing to do.
Now there is a biased poll. With grammar errors too :smile:

I'll put this one up next. Do you still beat your wife/husband/puppy ?
1. yes
2. no

:roll:
 
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shuamort said:
What report? That was Bush's quote from 2000 in the presidential debates. He said those words without coercion. He said those words to show how different he was from the Clinton Administration.


Could it be....a flip-flop? A change of heart? New information? Well, same grill was held to Kerry's face and now Bush skates without impunity? Me think not.

Kerry had a voting record Bush did not, actions speak louder than words, and the world changed after 9-11.
No, because at the time he couldn't. Of course, if that person stated in your strawman that "I will never just take a phone out of my pocket and call my wife." And then he did, well, THEN, he would be a liar. That's how the apples stack up.
. . . .. . . . . . . . .
 

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cnredd said:
I don't know if I could pinpoint a moment in time when this "conceding" took place, but it obviously has considering that we are, indeed, nation-building...It would be a lie if he came out and said we weren't...

Not even close...

A "flip-flop" is when you've change you're stance EVEN THOUGH the circumstances have not changed...

If you said "I believe in the death penalty" 10 years ago, but you don't feel the same way today...That's not a flip-flop...Feeling different one way awhile ago and feeling 180 degrees the other way is hardly a flip-flop...Refer to Churchill's repeated ad nauseum quote about being a Liberal and being a Conservative...People can change...It's legal; I swear!...

Even if you didn't change, the situations around you can....Walk around your whole life saying the Death Penalty is wrong...If someone shot your parents and you started yelling that you want the culprit's head on a platter and DEMAND the Death Penalty, would it be fair to have the shuamorts of the world call you a liar?...:roll:

It WOULD be a flip-flop if you told one group of people that you don't believe in the death penalty on Tuesday, then told another group that you DO believe in it on Wednesday...Unless you can come up with some pretty heavy evidence to show how you're mind has changed in that small time frame, that pandering is a total "flip-flop"...

That's why I originally asked when I jumped into the debate if anything changed between the time of Bush's comments on nation-building(2000) and the time when "nation-building" started happening (2003)...

Uhhhhh...I'm going to with "Yes"...:2wave:
I'm just going to rebuff you simply. Because some bowling pins are just a granny roll away.

Here's the definition of flip-flop, I've bolded the relevent definition. (but included the rest lest I be accused of cherry picking).
Main Entry: flip-flop
Pronunciation: 'flip-"fläp
Function: noun
1 : the sound or motion of something flapping loosely
2 a : a backward handspring b : a sudden reversal (as of direction or point of view)3 : a usually electronic device or a circuit (as in a computer) capable of assuming either of two stable states
4 : a rubber sandal loosely fastened to the foot by a thong
- flip-flop intransitive verb
So, your definition suddenly includes a note that would mean that circumstances have changed. Unfortunate for you, the definition does not demand, specify, or require that part thus making the rest of your argument null and void.


As for Trajan Octavian Titus, I'll thank you to code your retorts properly so I'm not attributed to any of your ideas or your post hoc rationales.
 

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hipsterdufus said:
Now there is a biased poll. With grammar errors too :smile:

I'll put this one up next. Do you still beat your wife/husband/puppy ?
1. yes
2. no

:roll:
Did you see the debate on CSPAN today? I don't think you would call it bias if you did..........
 

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shuamort said:
I'm just going to rebuff you simply. Because some bowling pins are just a granny roll away.

Here's the definition of flip-flop, I've bolded the relevent definition. (but included the rest lest I be accused of cherry picking).
Main Entry: flip-flop

So, your definition suddenly includes a note that would mean that circumstances have changed. Unfortunate for you, the definition does not demand, specify, or require that part thus making the rest of your argument null and void.


As for Trajan Octavian Titus, I'll thank you to code your retorts properly so I'm not attributed to any of your ideas or your post hoc rationales.
Far from null & void...

A) So the sudden reversal in my "Harrisburg" analogy is a "flip-flop"?...:confused:

B) Why do you consider the three-year span a "sudden reversal"?
 
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shuamort said:
I'm just going to rebuff you simply. Because some bowling pins are just a granny roll away.

Here's the definition of flip-flop, I've bolded the relevent definition. (but included the rest lest I be accused of cherry picking).
Main Entry: flip-flop

So, your definition suddenly includes a note that would mean that circumstances have changed. Unfortunate for you, the definition does not demand, specify, or require that part thus making the rest of your argument null and void.


As for Trajan Octavian Titus, I'll thank you to code your retorts properly so I'm not attributed to any of your ideas or your post hoc rationales.
Post Hoc? So are you saying the post 9-11 environment was not a factor in Bush's changing stance on the roll of the military?
 
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