Arab song for kids: Allah loves martyrs

[Apocalypse]

Are you sure you know what an Arab is?

Yes I am sure.
Now I'll direct that question towards you, are you sure you know what an Arab is?

What's really wishful thinking is to characterize anyone who believes something different from you as being in denial or somehow duped. There are a lot of people who support Palestine's right to independence and self determination, a two state solution, or what have you, that do not support Hamas. I'd say most pro-Palestine people in America don't support Hamas.

Not to get involved in your 'argument' with digsbe, but supporting the Palestinians' right to self-determination and indepedence, and supporting the two-states solution, does not make one a pro-Palestinian.
I support their right to an independent country in the land and I'm as pro-Israeli as they come.

 

[Pal]

Yes I am sure.
Now I'll direct that question towards you, are you sure you know what an Arab is?

Not to get involved in your 'argument' with digsbe, but supporting the Palestinians' right to self-determination and indepedence, and supporting the two-states solution, does not make one a pro-Palestinian.
I support their right to an independent country in the land and I'm as pro-Israeli as they come.

Well, that's good. I didn't mean to suggest that being pro-Palestine makes you anti-Israel or vice versa. Sorry if it came off that way. I'm just trying to use the terms the way they tend to be used in the context of this issue.

Uh?
1) I didn't choose the title.
2) It's not a Hamas song, it's an Arabic song in an Arab channel for kids by Arab broadcasters. The title is completely fine and not misleading at all.

What characterizes it as an Arab song? That's like calling the national anthem a white song.

 

[Gardener]

What characterizes it as an Arab song? .

It originates from Arabs, it is sung in Arabic, it is intended for an Arabic audience, and reflects a social pathology that appeals to Arabs.

It is like calling the National Anthum an AMERICAN song.

 

[Pal]

It originates from Arabs, it is sung in Arabic, it is intended for an Arabic audience, and reflects a social pathology that appeals to Arabs.

It is like calling the National Anthum an AMERICAN song.

Not really. American is a nationality. Arab is an ethnicity or race depending on the definition you're using. This song is only about Palestine, it isn't relevant to all Arabs, and there are millions of Arabs that are not Palestinian. Saying that it reflects a social pathology that appeals to Arabs is also wrong as there are plenty of Arabs that aren't even Muslim.

 

[L0neW0lf]

'Take revenge for us'

I thought you knew Arabic.

what it actually says is
Allah is sufficient, and He is the best Protector; In Allah we trust, and he is the best to rely on...

 

[Apocalypse]

What characterizes it as an Arab song? That's like calling the national anthem a white song.

It's in Arabic.
It's also sang by folks from an Arab country and is broadcasted in an Arab country.

I really don't see what your point here is.

 

[Apocalypse]

Not really. American is a nationality. Arab is an ethnicity or race depending on the definition you're using. This song is only about Palestine, it isn't relevant to all Arabs, and there are millions of Arabs that are not Palestinian. Saying that it reflects a social pathology that appeals to Arabs is also wrong as there are plenty of Arabs that aren't even Muslim.

Arab is an ethnicity and a nationality.
The Arab people are a people, just like the American people are a people and just like the Jewish people are a people.
Only difference being that the Arab nationality is an ethnic nationality while the American nationality is a political nationality.

Also; this song is not Palestinian.
The creator of the channel is a Jordanian Palestinian (They're the majority in Jordan), but the song is sung by non-Palestinians and is being broadcast in Bahrain, an Arab non-Palestinian country.

 

[alexa]

Arab is an ethnicity and a nationality.
The Arab people are a people, just like the American people are a people and just like the Jewish people are a people.
Only difference being that the Arab nationality is an ethnic nationality while the American nationality is a political nationality.

Also; this song is not Palestinian.
The creator of the channel is a Jordanian Palestinian (They're the majority in Jordan), but the song is sung by non-Palestinians and is being broadcast in Bahrain, an Arab non-Palestinian country.

The Arab people are an ethnic people like the Caucasian people. They come from many different nations.

As regards the song I only listened to the first three bars. I remember feeling really upset when I learnt that Palestinians were educating children to be suicide bombers. No it isn't right. I don't know who this film is by and whether it is released or whether it is propaganda. I had heard that suicide bombings were not looked on well in Gaza.

I do though also agree with German Guy that lots of indoctrination goes on with kids. My brother was always play killing Germans when we were young and seemed to believe they had no humanity.

It is though just sad hearing children happy to sing about deliberately dying young.

 

[German guy]

And much of the world is blind to it. Through wishful thinking and denial, Hamas is a group of "freedom fighters" and the Palestinians are a group of innocent people who are being oppressed and murdered by the Zionist regime.

This is a perfect example of what's so bad about things like indoctrinating children (yes, this reaction of your's is essentially the same logic): You apply broad generalizations about a perceived evil "other side". Black/white thinking and taking anything bad the "bad side" does as a reason to claim "all of them" do. Throw in a nice portion of "who is not with us is against us", and you got a nice hateful hawk cocktail.

First, you implicitly stereotype all Arabs/Muslims suggesting they all support Hamas, and next, you blame all of them collectively for these children videos, for the sole purpose of hating them better and rally up support for your calls of war against them. Ironically, Hamas does the same by blaming all Jews collectively for civilians killed by the Israeli army, and by ripping these deaths out of context, for the sole purpose of hating Jews better. Hell, even horrible crimes in the past would not have been possible without such a kind of hateful stereotyping.

When will people ever learn that stereotyping for the purpose of hatred and war will not give us a way out of this conflict?

Both sides have legitimate concerns: Israel wants a sustainable peace and security, and Palestinians want a state and freedom from occupation. Now you can argue that the Palestinian side is doing much less than the Israeli side for compromise or for finding a solution, and that may very well be right. You can also blame Hamas for this despicable indoctrination of children. But don't fool yourself, in any conflict, both sides engage in stereotyping, black/white thinking (have you ever met a party in a conflict where people believed they are not the good guys?) and I pretty sure quite a few Israeli parents will teach their kids similar things about the Palestinians, even if there is no TV program of that kind.

Playing the eternal blame game will never solve this conflict. Hell, it doesn't matter at all who "started it" in the past, if you want to find a solution for the future. Perpetuating this stereotyping villification of the "other side" and hatred only puts more fuel into the flames. We shouldn't contribute to that, should we?

 

[Apocalypse]

This is a perfect example of what's so bad about things like indoctrinating children (yes, this reaction of your's is essentially the same logic): You apply broad generalizations about a perceived evil "other side". Black/white thinking and taking anything bad the "bad side" does as a reason to claim "all of them" do. Throw in a nice portion of "who is not with us is against us", and you got a nice hateful hawk cocktail.

First, you implicitly stereotype all Arabs/Muslims suggesting they all support Hamas, and next, you blame all of them collectively for these children videos, for the sole purpose of hating them better and rally up support for your calls of war against them. Ironically, Hamas does the same by blaming all Jews collectively for civilians killed by the Israeli army, and by ripping these deaths out of context, for the sole purpose of hating Jews better. Hell, even horrible crimes in the past would not have been possible without such a kind of hateful stereotyping.

When will people ever learn that stereotyping for the purpose of hatred and war will not give us a way out of this conflict?

Both sides have legitimate concerns: Israel wants a sustainable peace and security, and Palestinians want a state and freedom from occupation. Now you can argue that the Palestinian side is doing much less than the Israeli side for compromise or for finding a solution, and that may very well be right. You can also blame Hamas for this despicable indoctrination of children. But don't fool yourself, in any conflict, both sides engage in stereotyping, black/white thinking (have you ever met a party in a conflict where people believed they are not the good guys?) and I pretty sure quite a few Israeli parents will teach their kids similar things about the Palestinians, even if there is no TV program of that kind.

Playing the eternal blame game will never solve this conflict. Hell, it doesn't matter at all who "started it" in the past, if you want to find a solution for the future. Perpetuating this stereotyping villification of the "other side" and hatred only puts more fuel into the flames. We shouldn't contribute to that, should we?

Your post is fine and dandy and all but I think you've misunderstood digsbe and are creating a misleading post yourself.
You see, when digsbe said "And much of the world is blind to it", he wasn't making a generalization.
A generalization, by both definition and name, is the reference of an attitude to an entire group of people, most of the times based purely on stereotypes.
If digsbe is saying "much of the world" he is actually contradicting the claim that he is making a generalization, since he is referring to a portion of the people in the world.

There is indeed a problem where many people around the world believe Hamas is a legitimate organization that resists the evil Zionist entity, which only seeks to annex land and has no interest in living in peace.
That is a legitimate concern digsbe is presenting.

Now besides that you were saying that digsbe has generalized the entire Muslim/Arab world and said that they all support Hamas.
I've never seen him saying or even implying such a thing, so I think you're very misleading there.

Now with the rest of your comment I have absolutely no problem with, although I have never heard about Israeli parents who teach their kids to kill Palestinians, that claim doesn't make sense to me.

 

[German guy]

Your post is fine and dandy and all but I think you've misunderstood digsbe and are creating a misleading post yourself.
You see, when digsbe said "And much of the world is blind to it", he wasn't making a generalization.
A generalization, by both definition and name, is the reference of an attitude to an entire group of people, most of the times based purely on stereotypes.
If digsbe is saying "much of the world" he is actually contradicting the claim that he is making a generalization, since he is referring to a portion of the people in the world.

Fair enough. Maybe I put words into digsbe's mouth here. I apologize if this is the case. Considering the generelizing statements that had been made before directed at Europe, I was maybe reading into his words that he thinks anybody who is critical of some of Israel's government's actions by default is a pro-Palestinian hack who believes Hamas are freedom fighters.

Maybe it was wrong to suggest digsbe thinks that way, but I have heard this kind of accusation often before, also from Israelis and fervent pro-Israeli hawks in America. I think this attitude (this sulking self-pity that just drives Israel and its supporters deeper into isolation, because even close friends or allies of Israel can't follow anymore) is not healthy and the result of a dangerous "either you are with us, or against us" logic.

So again, my apologies if this is not what digsbe was trying to suggest.

There is indeed a problem where many people around the world believe Hamas is a legitimate organization that resists the evil Zionist entity, which only seeks to annex land and has no interest in living in peace.
That is a legitimate concern digsbe is presenting.

True. But I don't think the number of this "much of the world" should be over-estimated. It may apply to a considerable portion of the population in the Muslim world, but let's not forget that Israel receives an overwhelming diplomatic and material support from both America and Europe. Israel is not alone.

Now with the rest of your comment I have absolutely no problem with, although I have never heard about Israeli parents who teach their kids to kill Palestinians, that claim doesn't make sense to me.

Fair enough. And I doubt it happens as often in Israel as in the Arab world, for cultural and historic reasons mainly. But I think you will agree that hatred and generalizations towards Arabs and/or Muslims do exist among certain Israelis as well (and who could blame them, considering the situation you are in. It's just a sad side-effect of the logic of war that this will always be the case), and that some of it is also passed on from parents to children.

My point is not to blame Israelis, but that we need deescalation also on the field of psychology to make way for a peaceful solution. The Palestinians may have a bigger task when it comes to that than the Israelis, but that doesn't mean we, on this board, have no responsibility at all.

 

[Winston Smith]

Israeli and American children may not learn killing from their parents, but they sure seem to be learning it from somewhere. I don't see anything uniquely Arab or Muslim about this kind of propaganda. It's basically a call to violence in the name of self-defense. Our kids are exposed to the same kind of rhetoric when they go to a movie theater and see that US Army music video with the troops rocking out in between battles.

 

[Apocalypse]

Maybe it was wrong to suggest digsbe thinks that way, but I have heard this kind of accusation often before, also from Israelis and fervent pro-Israeli hawks in America. I think this attitude (this sulking self-pity that just drives Israel and its supporters deeper into isolation, because even close friends or allies of Israel can't follow anymore) is not healthy and the result of a dangerous "either you are with us, or against us" logic.

I don't think that anyone who criticizes Israel here and there is anti-Israeli. If a person shows a pattern in criticizing Israel at any given time then yes obviously he is anti-Israeli, but even then that doesn't mean he supports Hamas.
I'm afraid that there are more than enough people however who do express support for Hamas.

True. But I don't think the number of this "much of the world" should be over-estimated. It may apply to a considerable portion of the population in the Muslim world, but let's not forget that Israel receives an overwhelming diplomatic and material support from both America and Europe. Israel is not alone.

Europe naturally has a bigger portion of pro-Palestinians in it than the rest of the Western world, due to its bigger Muslim communities.
Most of the anti-Semite attacks accross Europe are also being carried out by European Muslims.
Only five days ago a Jewish dance group was attacked with stones by about 30 Muslim children and teenagers during a performance at a street festival in the German city of Hannover, making anti-Semite chants such as "Jews go home" with a megaphone.
They've had to cancel the performance after one of the dancers was injured by the attackers in the leg.
The problem is real and is becoming more common in Europe, and I fear that little is being done to counter it by the authorities.

Fair enough. And I doubt it happens as often in Israel as in the Arab world, for cultural and historic reasons mainly. But I think you will agree that hatred and generalizations towards Arabs and/or Muslims do exist among certain Israelis as well

Of course it does, it's only ridiculous to claim that the hatred and generalizations exist only on one side of the border.
I can't see however an Israeli father sitting with his children in the house's saloon and teaching them to hate the Palestinians. That'd be just weird, like an American parent teaching his children to hate Iraqis.
There is life in Israel beyond the Israeli-Palestinian (and the whole Israeli-Arab) conflict.

 

[Gardener]

Maybe it was wrong to suggest digsbe thinks that way, but I have heard this kind of accusation often before, also from Israelis and fervent pro-Israeli hawks in America. I think this attitude (this sulking self-pity that just drives Israel and its supporters deeper into isolation, because even close friends or allies of Israel can't follow anymore) is not healthy and the result of a dangerous "either you are with us, or against us" logic.

.

What you call sulking self-pity, I call cutting through the Bullsh!t. What you are seeing is actually the reaction TO all the "Either you are with us or against us" , Manichaean style rhetorec, since the demonization of anything even remotely Israeli or Jewish is so thorough as to defy any other explanation than prejudice. When people roll out of bed each day to post yet another diatribe against Israel, what ELSE can you call it, especially when they do nothing else in this forum but demonize, and devote hundreds upon hundreds of obsessive postings to just this one subject?


What you are actually noticing isn't a whole slew of unfair accusations made against people who are offering balanced commentary and who occasionally criticize Israel, but rather, a determined effort among those who do nothing but demonize to cast aspersions upon anybody who objects to their hatred. They have been sold a bill of goods that convinces them that their hatred is actually some sort of virtue, and be d@mned if they will stand for having the light of day shone upon them.

 

[digsbe]

What's really wishful thinking is to characterize anyone who believes something different from you as being in denial or somehow duped. There are a lot of people who support Palestine's right to independence and self determination, a two state solution, or what have you, that do not support Hamas. I'd say most pro-Palestine people in America don't support Hamas.

I never said anyone who disagrees with me. I said those who believe Hamas and other terrorist groups are "freedom fighters" or that the Palestinians are "oppressed" by Israel live in denial and cling to wishful thinking. The fact is that Palestine is run by monsters, and many of the citizens support their racism and religious extremism. The Palestinian media is a disgusting example of the world tolerating racism and anti-Jewish sentiment while finger pointing at Israel.

 

[gunner]

I don't think that anyone who criticizes Israel here and there is anti-Israeli. If a person shows a pattern in criticizing Israel at any given time then yes obviously he is anti-Israeli, but even then that doesn't mean he supports Hamas.
I'm afraid that there are more than enough people however who do express support for Hamas.

There is myriad of reasons why people criticize, and just because someone, or some organisation constantly objects to an agenda or policy does not, by default, mean they have anything against that country.

Conversely, by your analogy, continually showing 'a pattern' defending a country means what?

Paul

 

[Apocalypse]

There is myriad of reasons why people criticize, and just because someone, or some organisation constantly objects to an agenda or policy does not, by default, mean they have anything against that country.

Actually if one is showing a pattern in opposing a country on every action and each front, then it is quite obvious that he has an issue with that specific state.

Conversely, by your analogy, continually showing 'a pattern' defending a country means what?

Supporting the country, obviously.

 

[gunner]

Actually if one is showing a pattern in opposing a country on every action and each front, then it is quite obvious that he has an issue with that specific state.

Supporting the country, obviously.

So opposing Israeli policy cannot mean supporting the Palestinian position?

Paul

 

[Apocalypse]

So opposing Israeli policy cannot mean supporting the Palestinian position?

Paul

It is quite common and very reasonable that one who would constantly oppose the Israeli position would also constantly support the Palestinian position, but it's not a must.
One can be anti-Israeli without being pro-Palestinian, I'm unable to see how those two are being the same thing.

 

[gunner]

It is quite common and very reasonable that one who would constantly oppose the Israeli position would also constantly support the Palestinian position, but it's not a must.
One can be anti-Israeli without being pro-Palestinian, I'm unable to see how those two are being the same thing.

I'm trying to get you to understand a person or organisation who constantly, or occasionally, opposes an Israeli policy does not have to fit either criteria. Namely, pro or anti Israeli. Neither position is a given. Its very easy to be consistent in both positions as Israel is consistent in her action.

Paul

 

[jallman]

I'm trying to get you to understand a person or organisation who constantly, or occasionally, opposes an Israeli policy does not have to fit either criteria. Namely, pro or anti Israeli. Neither position is a given. Its very easy to be consistent in both positions as Israel is consistent in her action.

Paul

I think the debate over Israel and Palestine leaves zero possibility for the advocates of either side to understand anything resembling moderation. The whole Israel thing, to the pro-Israelis, is "you are either with us and Israel with blind devotion or you hate dem Joos".

 

[Apocalypse]

I'm trying to get you to understand a person or organisation who constantly, or occasionally, opposes an Israeli policy does not have to fit either criteria. Namely, pro or anti Israeli. Neither position is a given. Its very easy to be consistent in both positions as Israel is consistent in her action.

Paul

And I'm trying to get you to understand that when a person is following a constant pattern of opposing a state on each move and on every front then he certainly has an issue with that state.
Likewise, when an American citizen shows a pattern of opposing a president on every action and each front, he obviously has an issue with the president.

 

[Apocalypse]

I think the debate over Israel and Palestine leaves zero possibility for the advocates of either side to understand anything resembling moderation. The whole Israel thing, to the pro-Israelis, is "you are either with us and Israel with blind devotion or you hate dem Joos".

Anyone who'll read the passage gunner was quoting in post #41 would tell you otherwise.

 

[jallman]

Anyone who'll read the passage gunner was quoting in post #41 would tell you otherwise.

And they'd be wrong.

 

[Apocalypse]

And they'd be wrong.

Nope, they'd be absolutely right.