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Anyone notice....

ChristopherHall

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Did anyone notice that the Democratic response to the President's State of the Union Address was delivered by Gov. Tim Kaine, a Pro-Life Democrat?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/11120100

http://ontheissues.org/Tim_Kaine.htm

In addition the Third Way, a Democratic think tank, is promoting measures drafted by pro-life Democrats as a national agenda regarding abortion and a focus on reducing abortion. They propose adopting policies identical to the 95-10 Initiative drafted by Pro-Life Democrats (DFLA).

http://www.democratsforlife.org/

For more on the 95-10 Initiative read at the following link:

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=48&Itemid=45

Let's keep our eyes open. The Democratic Party may begin addressing the abortion issue from the perspective of policies targeted directly at reducing the abortion rate. The Pro-Life Democrats appear to be enfluencing the party more and more with each year.
 
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steen

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I don't feel your post makes sense. Democrats have never been opposed to meassures that might reduce the need for abortions.

But such policies of sex-ed, contraception and support for pregnant women tend to be opposed by the pro-lifers.:roll:
 

ChristopherHall

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steen said:
I don't feel your post makes sense. Democrats have never been opposed to meassures that might reduce the need for abortions.

But such policies of sex-ed, contraception and support for pregnant women tend to be opposed by the pro-lifers.:roll:
I agree. However the Democrats are articulating their position differently now and I think this is a good thing.
 

doughgirl

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Thank you ChristopherHall for those websites.

I do know there are a few Democrats that are pro-life. But the face of the Democratic party is anything but pro-life.
The big king pins of the D-party are not only for abortion but partial birth abortions as well. Many of them started out their careers pro-life and when they started to run for offices, changed their stance to get votes.

Go to this website and you will see those who were opposed to banning partial birth abortions.....overwhelmingly they were democrats.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/L...cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00051#top

Boxer, Feinstein, Kennedy, Leiberman.....all voted to allow partial birth abortion. (Of course Biden and Kerry did not vote. Remember Kerry has a misearble voting and attendance record..He did show up however to voted agaisnt the peterson law) :roll:

Kennedy,Boxer, Gore and Dean are very much pro-abortion and anti-life. Boxer even voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime.

Kerry voted NO against the Laci Peterson Law and he voted against the Unborn Victims of Violence Act (H.R. 1997), which recognized a fetus as a second victim if injured or killed when a violent act is committed against the pregnant mother.

Gore even supports Medicaid funding of abortion.


On this website you will see Jesse jacksons right to Life article to the Right to Life organization in 1977.
http://www.swiss.ai.mit.edu/~rauch/nvp/consistent/jackson.html

BUT...He voted NO on making it a crime to harm a fetus during another crime. (Feb 2004)
Voted NO on banning partial-birth abortion except to save mother’s life. (Oct 2003) Voted NO on federal crime to harm fetus while committing other crimes. (Apr 2001)
Voted NO on banning partial-birth abortions. (Apr 2000)
Voted NO on barring transporting minors to get an abortion. (Jun 1999)
Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record. (Dec 2003)
(http://www.issues2000.org/IL/JESSE_LOUIS_JACKSON.HTM)


The Democrats definetly have an image problem and I think the abortion issue and their stance doesn't help them one bit. I do not think middle America shares their values. They try to pass themselves off as moderate and the voice of middle America, but they are not. Kerry used Mario Cuomo’s line: “I am personally opposed to abortion, but I can’t impose my morality on others.” He tried to establish himself as a middle-of-the-road guy on abortion. But his voting record (that included at least five votes to keep partial-birth abortion legal) showed differently.

Obviously the Democrats care more about votes than innocent lives. And unless they changed drastically in my opinion they are in trouble.
 

ChristopherHall

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I agree the Democrats have a serious image problem.

However I believe that is in part due to villianization. For example many are cast as Pro-Abortion when in fact most are Pro-Choice. There is a fundamental difference. My mother in law is Pro-Choice but would never be Pro-Abortion. She would never advocate that a woman terminate her pregnancy, however, she believes that after all is said and done the painful choice should be on the mother not government.

I'm often taken aback by those who say they are "Pro-Life". Because they appear to only be interested in banning abortion and throwing violators in jail. Progressives have a better record than this. For example in Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany the abortion rate is well below 10 per 1,000 pregnancies. In America the abortion rate is a wopping 23 per 1,000 pregnancies. There are examples throughout the world where abortion is illegal however the abortion rate is shockingly high. Why do some of the most progressive nations have lower abortion rates? Because they address the issues women face. In America two out of three women who have abortions live well below the poverty level. One out of every three women who chooses to have abortion is married and has children. I have a friend in Canada who lives in a low income bracket. She has become pregnant and can actually get financial aid during her pregnancy. Permanent child tax cuts, adoption tax cuts, in other areas of the world have given financial incentives for choosing life when a person is faced with poverty. Extending health insurance to pregnant women living below the poverty level has also assisted in bringing down the abortion rates in other countries. Lastly comprehensive sex education and legislation forcing health insurance providers to provide coverage for contraceptives also reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies.

The Republicans have no policy measures beyond abstinence and jail. That is why they will fail. Also since more and more people are falling below the poverty level as we speak and yes even 14% more people are without health insurance it shouldn't surpise us that the abortion rate is rising.

I would rather live in a nation where the abortion rate was very low even if abortion was legal than live in nation like Chile where the abortion rate is very high but abortion is illegal.

In the end what matters is the number of lives saved.

Republicans are lacking here in my opinion.
 

ChristopherHall

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After all is said and done and real "policies" are considered...the Democrats are far more "Pro-Life" than Republicans.
 

doughgirl

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“However I believe that is in part due to villianization. For example many are cast as Pro-Abortion when in fact most are Pro-Choice.”
The voting records speak for themselves. I gave the website that showed how they voted on abortion.

“My mother in law is Pro-Choice but would never be Pro-Abortion. She would never advocate that a woman terminate her pregnancy, however, she believes that after all is said and done the painful choice should be on the mother not government.”
I do not think there is a difference. The result of the painful decision results in the death of the unborn child. No one should be allowed to determine who lives or dies.
I believe those who are pro-choice are pro-abortion. They sit back and condone the deaths, their silence is deafening especially to the unborn who is being slaughtered and dismembered alive.

You asked the question, “Why do some of the most progressive nations have lower abortion rates?”
What womans issues don’t we face in America? Abortion is legal. Statistics show that the majority of woman use abortion as birth control. Statistics show that…
• 47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

You said, “In America two out of three women who have abortions live well below the poverty level. One out of every three women who chooses to have abortion is married and has children.” Mind giving the source.
“The Republicans have no policy measures beyond abstinence and jail. That is why they will fail.”
They have the Democrats and liberals worried. And they have reason to worry. Statistics show:
•According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.
•According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.
http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm

The Democratic Party had much to say about the new men appointed to the Supreme Court. I wonder why?

You also said, “In the end what matters is the number of lives saved.”
You are right. And millions of innocent unborn children are aborted daily all over the world. You don’t find this sad? The percentage of woman who get abortions because of medical reasons that are life threatening are less than 2 %.


“After all is said and done and real "policies" are considered...the Democrats are far more "Pro-Life" than Republicans.”

I do not know how you can say this. I would suggest reading up on most the high profile Democrats to see what they say and particularly how they vote. They are anything but pro-life. They are anything but moral. In fact I think the party is immoral.

The quote you have at the bottom of your posts says this…. "I think it's a good thing for a president or political leaders to want to put their values or their faith into action. Desmond Tutu did that in South Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. did that here. This is a good thing." - Rev. Jim Wallis
Clinton did this when he did not veto the partial birth abortion bill. He put his pro-choice faith into action. Jimmy Carter taught bible studies at his fundamentalist Christian church. (No outcry from Democrtas or liberals when he was in office over his public show of faith.)

Martin Luther King was pro-life. If he were alive today he would have stood up for the unborn children slaughtered.

"I join the voices of thousands across America who can no longer sit idly by and allow this horrible spirit of murder to cut down," King says. "If the Dream of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., is to live, our babies must live." (Dr. Alveda King, the late religious leader's niece)
http://www.angelfire.com/mo/baha/king.html

Democrats have started to talk about abortion in a different way. They want America to think they are pro-life. They are softening their stance a little in order to gain votes. They MUST do this or they will not win elections. The voting records of Democrats speak for themselves.
 

FinnMacCool

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Democrats have started to talk about abortion in a different way. They want America to think they are pro-life. They are softening their stance a little in order to gain votes. They MUST do this or they will not win elections. The voting records of Democrats speak for themselves.
Haha. Like the Republicans don't do that in other issues as well? Can we say 'naive'? If your just going to take the words of republicans or democrats for that matter as absolute truths, you won't learn a thing.
 

ngdawg

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That's Jesse Jackson, Jr. Senior is not a member of the senate or congress:roll:
 

ChristopherHall

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The Republican solution is merely ban abortion and throw people in jail.

Here's a few interesting articles from Pro-Life Democrats:

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1


"You may already know that our 95-10 Initiative has garnered the attention of the media and of lawmakers around the country. Now, 95-10 is being heralded by Democratic strategists Paul Begala and James Carville as a practical solution to the tragedy of abortion in their new book, "Take It Back: Our Country, Our Party, Our Future." Read the following excerpt:

"A group of pro-life Democrats called, appropriately enough, Democrats for Life, has come up with what it calls the 95-10 Initiative. Its goal is to reduce abortions by 95 percent in ten years. The 95-10 Initiative has been championed in the House of Representatives by Tim Ryan, a bright and engaging congressman from Ohio. One of the youngest members of Congress, Ryan was fed up with extremists on both sides who endlessly debated Roe v. Wade without doing anything constructive to reduce the need for or number of abortions. The 95-10 Initiative is built around seventeen concrete policy proposals that would reduce the number of abortions. In announcing their plan, the pro-life Democrats said their goals are to empower women, to defend pregnant women, and to protect unborn children... Democrats should challenge Republicans who do nothing more than give lip service to pro-lifers to put some policy behind their speeches. This is both good politics, and we think, good policy."
...and....

DFLA Speaks Out About Dangers of RU-486
Kristen Day addresses Press Conference on Holly's Law

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=118&Itemid=2

Washington, DC - Feb 01, 2006 On February 1, 2006, Kristen Day addressed members of the media at a press conference urging members of Congress to bring Holly's Law, H.R. 1079, to the House floor for a vote. Holly's Law, named in honor of a victim who died from taking RU-486, calls for a ban on the distribution of the drug until the FDA can reconsider the potentially deadly side effects.
Statement on Holly's Law
“I am not here as a pro-life Democrat who believes that America should reduce the abortion rate. I am here because the lives of pregnant women are at risk when they are given RU-486.”

“My name is Kristen Day and I am the Executive Director of Democrats for Life of America. Democrats for Life is proud to be a supporter of this legislation.”

“We are also proud to be here with our Democratic friends in Congress who support this bill: Representatives Lincoln Davis, Daniel Lipinski, Alan Mollohan, Gene Taylor and Bart Stupak. We are calling upon Congress to stand-up and protect women’s health by supporting this life-saving legislation.”

“Let me say that again. Holly’s Law, will save lives by banning the use of RU-486 until the drug can be deemed safe by the FDA.”

“But don’t take my word for it, listen to the people who make RU-486. Recently, RU-486’s manufacturer publicly admitted that their drug is dangerous when used for the purpose of ending a pregnancy. This is why the FDA should carefully review the cases of death and injury that have already been documented as a result of RU-486 usage.”

“No matter if you’re pro-choice or pro-life, we can all agree that approving a drug that has reportedly seriously injured or killed hundreds of women is a mistake. That’s why we’re here today to plead with Congress to approve this legislation that will require more study on why women are dying after they are prescribed RU-486.”

“Arguments in favor of medically-induced abortions have celebrated the "privacy" that RU-486 provides women. But it is important to remember that suffering and loss are no less painful when experienced in private. Death is no less final when a woman experiences it in her own bedroom two or three days after receiving this drug.”

“This bill comes at a time when we’ve seen countless reports of the FDA coming under fire for a multitude of errors in the approval and labeling of certain prescription medications. RU-486 is another example of drug that was hastily approved without regard for the health and safety of consumers.”

Simply put, RU-486 is not a safe drug for the women who take it. This is precisely why Democrats for Life believes that it is incumbent upon our government to protect the health and safety of women and their unborn children. The continued use of RU-486 should be immediately suspended until the FDA can fully evaluate the potential hazards that this drug poses for pregnant women.” -30-

Learn more...

DFLA
Kristen Day
Executive Director
email: info@democratsforlife.org
phone: 202-220-3066
...and...

Abortion: Wedge Issue or Reducing the Tragedy?
By Tim Roemer

http://www.democratsforlife.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=120&Itemid=2

Washington, DC - Feb 02, 2006 In the 1960’s, America was divided over a centuries old debate on racial justice. Opinion was polarized and progress stalled until Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. helped change the heart of the nation. His commitment to non-violence and appeal to our best ideals opened hearts and minds and made the path for progress possible. Inspired by King’s personal courage, Presidents Kennedy and Johnson showed political courage within a divided political party and a divided nation by taking on a moral issue “as old as the Scriptures and as clear as the American Constitution.”

While putting aside the debate on the legality of abortion, “Democrats for Life” have developed a plan with the goal of achieving a 95% reduction in the number of abortions within the next ten years. Congressman Tim Ryan is keen to introduce this plan entitled the “95/10 Initiative,” which is grounded in sound research, bold ideas, and common sense. Research conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute shows that half of pregnancies in this country are unplanned and half of those end in abortion. The realities of economic hardship also factor into women’s choice for abortion. The 95/10 Initiative takes this research into account and has developed an innovative two-part strategy.

First, it addresses the three million unintended pregnancies per year through grants for age appropriate pregnancy prevention education. We must be capable of openly discussing appropriate sex education programs, promoting abstinence for teens, and generously funding contraception and counseling. Second, it provides support for pregnant women in ways that encourage them to continue their pregnancies such as day care, pregnancy counseling on campuses, permanent adoption tax credits, better availability for referral information, shelters for women and children in crisis pregnancies, support for safe haven laws and better medical insurance for mothers and children through their first year of life.

The strength of the 95/10 Initiative is not only in its compelling content but also in the momentum it has generated within the Democratic Party. Announced in the Democratic National Committee offices and endorsed by both pro-choice and pro-life Democrats, it represents an important step forward for the Party. This initiative is not the only step forward. Democrats are united behind the senatorial candidacy of Robert Casey, Jr. in Pennsylvania. Casey is a pro-life Democrat. The enthusiastic support for candidate Casey among party leaders is a tangible sign of a more inclusive attitude that reflects the wisdom of a majority party. Recent statements by Senators Clinton, Kerry and DNC Chairman Howard Dean recognize the need for a more sophisticated approach to the complex issue of abortion. Given these developments I believe the Democratic Party has made more progress on this issue in the last ten months than in the past ten years.

It may seem that we should expect Republicans to make common cause with us in this endeavor, and perhaps a few individuals will join in support of 95-10. However, the Republican power base, still wrestling with the facts of evolution, is paralyzed by mainstream policy proposals to reduce abortions. Still after years of Republican control of the House of Representatives and five years of a Republican President, abortion rates for 2004 remain at about 1.3 million per year.

If talk were a solution the problem would be solved. We can all recite the favored lines about life and culture and family. But, talk is ultimately no different than tin cans tied behind a moving car – an empty rattle that fades into the background noise and has no important impact. America has paid a high moral and political price for the ten year stalemate on reducing the number of abortions. We should demand and provide something better. The 95/10 Initiative allows Democrats to take the lead in doing just that. Democrats have provided effective political leadership and innovative policy proposals to reduce homelessness, decrease poverty, and address hunger. Today, abortion presents the same challenges within another critical social issue.
About the Author

Tim Roemer is the President of the Center for National Policy and a former U.S. Representative from Indiana.

© 2000-2006 RealClearPolitics.com All Rights Reserved

DFLA
Kristen Day
Executive Director
email: info@democratsforlife.org
phone: 202-220-3066
 
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ChristopherHall

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There truly is a growing Pro-Life movement within the Democratic Party. I am a minister in my local Church who is both Pro-Life and Democratic. Tim Roemer is from my state and has even been interviewed extensively on Christian radio. I've been to local DFLA activities and even handed out "Just Another Pro-Life Democrat" literature here when Kerry/Edwards was in town. You would be mazed at the number of registered Democrats who were absolutely thrilled to see Pro-Life Democrats active and out in numbers.

Democrats are starting to get the picture but we still have a lot of work to do. While yes you still have those "Pro-Choice" iron horses in the party, the interesting thing is that they are coming aboard policies that were drafted by Pro-Life Democrats. They are locked behind Roe, but they are willing to support measures that will reduce the abortion rate. The Democratic Party has been spanked hard by the American people and it is slowly waking up. The average Pro-Choice advocate is 55 years old. After that we see a growing number of moderate to Pro-Life Democrats in the field. Soon and very soon the Republican Pro-Lifers who want to merely ban abortion and throw people in jail are going to be confronted with actual Pro-Life "policies" that will fight to reduce the abortion rate.

This is something Pro-Life people should care about. Let me remind you that the abortion rate was higher in America back when abortion was largely illegal throughout the states than it is today...and abortion is presently legal. Banning abortion has become the focus of traditional Pro-Lifers. They really don't care about abortion rates or how to reduce them. Merely banning abortion and throwing people in jail will not reduce the abortion rate. It didn't do it before Roe and it will not do it in the future either. But we know that Pro-Life policies that truly address the issues women face with an unplanned or crisis pregnancy WILL save lives and reduce the abortion rate. Such measures are going to be needed even if abortion is banned.

The Bible says that, "faith without works is dead."

You can fight to ban abortion for the next 20 years and even if you win not make a dent in the number of children being killed. Or you can put works with your faith and support common sense initiatives that will reduce the abortion rate regardless as to if abortion is banned or not.

Think about this...it may take another 20 years to significantly curtail abortion rights in our country. 20 years. That's 26 million lives lost to abortion. But legislation and initiatives can be passed THIS YEAR that will help to reduce the abortion rate drastically...but here's the catch...those initiatives are only being presented by Democrats. The question is...what matters more to you...lives or politics?

Republicans have done NOTHING to reduce the abortion rate. As a matter of fact the Republicans have purposely left out health clauses in abortion legislation for the sole intent of having the courts overrule it. Why? So they can smack blind loyalst around and get them agry enough at the courts to vote Republican again. It's a terrible game the Republicans are playing and people are DYING while they play this game.

The game is over. The Democrats are drafting Pro-Life policy to reduce abortion in our country even while Roe still stands. It's time to ask yourself where your values truly are...are you really Pro-Life or Republican?
 
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mixedmedia

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Can we agree that the abortion forum has a new kind of hero?

Excellent debate, ChristopherHall. So very happy to see you here. :2wave:
 

ChristopherHall

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Thank you Mixedmedia, it's a pleasure to be here.
 

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I also welcome you and I am glad you are here. :smile:

I usually do not bring religion into the debate for two reasons.
1. I do not think one need be a Christian to realize that abortion is wrong.
2. The majority of posters on here are not Christian but the contrary, they hate Christians and Christianity and they do not believe the scriptures so what is the point.

You will see.

I address my comments to you ….

I am a Christian as well. I work for the Right To Life in my state and I also am involved with Silent No More. We believe in both groups that the key is education. Education about gestational development and what medical science has to say about fetal development.

I do believe that more churches/pastors should speak out against abortion. They remain silent because they do not want to upset anyone, or to lose members, especially those who tithe.
We should not as Christians allow our uneasiness about this issue keep us from saying and doing what is right, from facing the TRUTH. We must remember that God is the creator of children and a lover of children. Of all the sins committed in the Old Testament, one stands out above the others in its utter abomination to God: the killing of children. Leviticus 20 says, that to kill children is, ”to defile my sanctuary and to profane my holy name.” He says in Proverbs 7 there are seven things that are detestable to Him. One of those is “hands that shed innocent blood.”
Is there innocent blood shed in America? Around the world?

We can’t be afraid of offending people. I believe we offend God when we do not speak up. Would you rather offend God or someone who is pro-abortion just because it’s the politically correct thing to do? We must face the truth about abortion especially in our churches. And if we can’t face the truth there, where can we face it? We have to examine what legalized abortion has done to this country. To be silent about abortion we consent to child-killing. Remember the people of Israel? They consented to the evil of their head of state by their failure to speak up. In my opinion we deserve every bit as severe a judgment as the destruction God brought upon the nation Judah.

Silence is NOT the solution. When pastors and churches are silent about abortion, it becomes a form of consent, permission for abortion. I am wondering if your church speaks out? Pastor?

“"Faith without works is dead."
Those who value life, all life, must work together to end abortion. To blame one party over the other is wrong. I know there are good men who are Democrats who are pro-life. My sister works for one. My father is one. But the pro-life Democrats are not speaking out loudly enough. On this issue they fail miserably. Why did the majority vote for partial birth abortion? Vote to illiminate parental consent?

“The game is over. The Democrats are drafting Pro-Life policy to reduce abortion in our country even while Roe still stands. It's time to ask yourself where your values truly are...are you really Pro-Life or Republican?”
It is sad that you would think that this issue is a game. I prefer to call it a struggle between good and evil, between Satan and God. Satan hates children. All those that work for him hate children as well.
I know where my values are. I know where they come from. I hold a Christian worldview and they come from scripture. I am a pro-life Christian.

I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. But I would add that because of the Democratic platform on abortion I could never vote for anyone who was a Democrat.

The Holy Spirit can change hearts. I pray that millions of those who do not value life do have a change of heart. I pray that the Democrats do work towards ending abortion. But until they see abortion as something that kills innocent human fetuses nothing will change. The big Democrats in the party do not see abortion as being bad. I am afraid whatever they do, is only being done to get votes. Time will tell.
I will continue speaking out for the millions of innocent lives that are slaughtered and leave the rest to God.

I do not know about you Christopher but after I die I want to be able to look Christ in the eyes and tell Him that I tried, I did my best.

“Let me remind you that the abortion rate was higher in America back when abortion was largely illegal throughout the states than it is today...and abortion is presently legal.”
Please site your source.


Intersting facts…..http://www.legalactionforwomen.org/abortbiz.html


God Bless
 

ChristopherHall

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I agree with a lot that you have said doughgirl.

I do believe that more pastors and ministers should speak out in condemnation of the abortion. I attend a United Pentecostal Church and trust me, our Pastor frequently and passionately condemns the sin of abortion. I agree with you that we must stand up and preach against the sin of abortion.

We believe in both groups that the key is education. Education about gestational development and what medical science has to say about fetal development.
I believe that education is very important but I wouldn't call it the key and invest all my energies into it. Here's why, people in our generation know more about gestational development than any other generation in history. I believe when it comes to sexual education our generation is the most educated also. Yet this most educated generation still sees frightened women seeking abortions. I believe education in this area is important but actually seeking to meet the needs and assist desperate women with solid national policies that are in their favor are more important.

Those who value life, all life, must work together to end abortion. To blame one party over the other is wrong.
I disagree. If there are measures that can be taken to protect unborn life and the "Pro-Life" party refuses to impliment those measures the blood is on their hands, and perhaps even more so because they are supposed to be "Pro-Life".

Why did the majority vote for partial birth abortion? Vote to illiminate parental consent?
I think that is a disingenuous statement. I know very few who would vote "for" partial birth abortion. I do know many who opposed a particular peice of legislation that would have banned partial birth abortion. Some opposed it because they are the old school Democrats. They do not want government bureaucrats politicizing the most intimate and sometimes painful situations women face, so they want government out of it all together. I know other Democrats who opposed the bill because it lacked a significant health clause that the courts would require in the bill. Since this clause was not designed to meet the court's requirements the bill was voted against. Why pass a trash bill that will just be overruled by the courts? The Republicans purposefully neglected to meet the court's specified health clause requirements by offering their own version of a health clause. Why? Because the Republicans wanted the bill to be overruled to keep partial birth abortion a living campaign issue. The Republicans were exploiting women, Pro-Life voters, and the very lives of the unborn with the partial birth abortion bill they presented.

In regards to parental consent. I support parental consent laws. However I believe there should be provisions to protect minors from abusive parents. If a young girl becomes pregnant because her father is abusing her and she wants an abortion, notifying her father may bring serious harm to her. Often fathers will beat their daughters for becoming pregnant and then will drive them to the abortion clinics. A parental consent bill should provide some way of protecting a young girl from abusive parents.

In addition the Guttmacher Institute explains that parental consent laws do little to prevent abortion. The average age of women seeking abortion is 24, but 19%, or nearly 250,000 abortions a year, are performed on teen agers. Family Planning Perspectives, Vol. 24, 5, September-October of 1992, p. 196+ explains that according to their findings upon learning of their daughter's pregnancies, parents favored abortion over childbirth by a 4 to 1 ratio.

Parental consent laws are important but they should provide provisions that protect abused girls. And from a Pro-Life perspective it must be remembered that such laws are largely token gestures and legislation to keep Pro-Lifer's happy and Republican.

It is sad that you would think that this issue is a game.
We are both Christians, that means we should be honest with one another. Above you're misrepresenting what I said in a very disingenuous way. Here's my actual statement for the sake of our readers:

"Republicans have done NOTHING to reduce the abortion rate. As a matter of fact the Republicans have purposely left out health clauses in abortion legislation for the sole intent of having the courts overrule it. Why? So they can smack blind loyalst around and get them agry enough at the courts to vote Republican again. It's a terrible game the Republicans are playing and people are DYING while they play this game.

The game is over. The Democrats are drafting Pro-Life policy to reduce abortion in our country even while Roe still stands."
- ChristopherHall

To clarify I was not saying that I see this as a game. I was stating that the game the Republicans have been playing is over.

Let's try our best to be honest here or the dialogue will become unfruitful. Besides, it is written:

20"'And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." - Deuteronomy 5:20 (English Standard Version)

I am neither a Republican or a Democrat. But I would add that because of the Democratic platform on abortion I could never vote for anyone who was a Democrat.
I used to believe like you do. I was a GOP Team Leader for some time. I began to realize that I was focusing on what was on paper instead of results. While yes the Republicans have Pro-Life language in their platform, the number of up and coming Pro-Choice Republicans is growing. On the other side the Democrats may have Pro-Choice language in their platform but the number of up and coming Pro-Life Democrats is growing. For me the issue isn't what is in the "platform" but rather who's policies actually will reduce the abortion rate and save lives. As I have said before, most Republicans merely want to ban abortion and throw people in jail. Republicans do not have concrete policies that offer assistance or incentives to women facing unwanted or crisis pregnancies so that most of their fears are relieved and they can choose life.

Here's an interesting story. I have a friend who lives in Canada. She is very poor and is single. Well, she got pregnant. (I agree that she shouldn't have and that it was a sin, but life is what it is.) She has health insurance, is going to receive subsidized childcare when she returns to work, and is given a monthly alotment to pay for pregnancy and preparation expenses. She told me point blank that if she lived in America she couldn't afford medical insurance. Not having medical insurance, being too poor to pay for childcare, and not having the money to pay for the expenses of pregnancy she said she would choose abortion. It's really sad but it is a fact of life, but the reality is women choose abortion when they are poor, desperate, and scared. The Republicans haven't offered any leadership in this area. As a matter of fact more women have lost health insurance under President George Bush, reversing the trend under President Clinton where more and more women had needed healthcoverage. Also more and more women have been found below the poverty line. Again reversing previous trends. Some studies have indicated that the abortion rate may actually be rising as more and more women are faced with poverty and lack of health insurance.

The Democrats on the other hand have drafted a plan. While yes for the most part they are still "Pro-Choice", they are actually going to push for policies that will save lives. Here are the suggested policies the Democrats have started pushing for:

-Federal Funding for Toll-Free Number/National Public Awareness Program
-Conduct a National Study & Update Abortion Data
-Federal Funding for Pregnancy Prevention Education
-Federal Funding for Abortion Counseling and Daycare on University Campuses
-Provide Accurate Information to Patients Receiving a Positive Result from an Alpha-Fetoprotein Test tests.
-Make Adoption Tax Credits Permanent
-Ban Pregnancy as a “Pre-Existing Condition” in the Health Care Industry
-Require Adoption Referral Information
-Women's Right to Know (Any women's health center or clinic that provides pregnancy counseling or abortion services must provide accurate information on abortion and the adverse side effects to a woman's health. Patients do not have to accept the materials if they do not want them.)
-Provide Ultrasound Equipment
-Increase Funding for Domestic Violence Programs (Offer additional federal funding for programs that have received grants by the Department of Justice for providing counseling and shelter for women and children in crisis pregnancies. The leading cause of death against pregnant women is murder.

Protect our Children

-Fully Fund Federal WIC Program
-Parental Notification
-Provide Grants to States to Help in the Promotion and Implementation of Safe Haven Laws
-Require Counseling in Maternity Group Homes (Adoption counseling in federally funded maternity group homes and teaching of parenting skills.)
-Require SCHIP to cover pregnant women

Remember, nearly two thirds of all women to seek abortions live below the poverty level. That means that abortion is directly connected to poverty or the lack of sustainable income. Address the needs and issues women face when confronted with an unplanned or crisis pregnancy and they will not feel so scared and alone.

Such measures have worked in other countries. For example Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world (8 out of ever 1,000 pregnancies). Yet it is a Pro-Choice country. It has measures similar to these to help women with unplanned pregnancies.

What do you think matters most to God...lives saved or clauses on paper?

(I'll respond to the rest of your post in another post because this is getting too long. Please stay tuned.)
 

ChristopherHall

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I pray that the Democrats do work towards ending abortion. But until they see abortion as something that kills innocent human fetuses nothing will change.
I don't believe that. I believe that is an unreasonable position to hold. No one will ever completely agree with everyone else regarding abortion until Jesus comes back and sets us all straight. However, I believe that those who are Pro-Choice and those who are Pro-Life can work together for common sense legislation that will reduce the abortion rate even while Roe still stands. If your position is true, how is it that the Pro-Choice nation of Belgium has the lowest abortion rate in the world?

I will continue speaking out for the millions of innocent lives that are slaughtered and leave the rest to God.
Talk is cheap. Solid policies and concrete initiatives that are designed to target the abortion rate will produce results. Faith without works is dead.

I do not know about you Christopher but after I die I want to be able to look Christ in the eyes and tell Him that I tried, I did my best.
I agree. I want to be able to say, "I did my best.", not, "I talked my best."

I also want him to see how I supported and pushed for efforts designed specifically to save lives and help struggling women. On judgment day rhetoric and what is on paper will not count for much.

Jesus said,

John 15:8
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

God is looking for results.

How do you think God looks at Belgium? Yes, it may be a Pro-Choice country but it has the lowest abortion rate in the world. I believe God is pleased with the results.

Quote:
“Let me remind you that the abortion rate was higher in America back when abortion was largely illegal throughout the states than it is today...and abortion is presently legal.”


Please site your source.
The latest abortion rates are from 2000. Here are some abortion statistics from the Centers for Disease Control:



Please note how drastically the abortion rate dropped under President Clinton's progressive policies regarding contraceptives and initiatives to cover more women with health insurance. You may wish to criticize President Clinton for vetoing the Partial Birth Abortion Ban...but the data shows that his policies saved more lives than the Partial Birth Abortion Ban ever could have.

God bless.
 
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ChristopherHall

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Lastly, you made a statement I want to address,

I pray that the Democrats do work towards ending abortion.
Abortion has been with mankind since ancient times. Not even the most stringent laws and severe punishments have completely "ended" abortion in any society. Even today countries that have banned abortion still see abortions taking place. Some countries that have banned abortion see the highest abortion rates in their regions. The truth of the matter is that neither the Democrats or the Republicans can "end" abortion. Such a goal and such an expectation is unrealistic and will paralyze you by stealing your focus from saving those you actually can save. Abortions do and will take place regardless as to if they are legal or illegal. The evidence clearly shows that banning abortion means very little in the way of prevention. Only policies that will actually assist and relieve women facing unplanned or crisis pregnancies will save lives.
 

steen

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ChristopherHall said:
I agree with you that we must stand up and preach against the sin of abortion.
Well, you CLAIM it is a sin.


I disagree. If there are measures that can be taken to protect unborn life and the "Pro-Life" party refuses to impliment those measures the blood is on their hands, and perhaps even more so because they are supposed to be "Pro-Life".
The function of the prolife movement for the last 30 years has been per scare mongering lies and oppression of women. If they abandoned this in favor of helping and supporting women, the pro-choice side would join and abortion rates would immediately drop tremendously. The high abortion rates in the
US are directly a product of pro-life policies and tactics.

Why pass a trash bill that will just be overruled by the courts? The Republicans purposefully neglected to meet the court's specified health clause requirements by offering their own version of a health clause. Why? Because the Republicans wanted the bill to be overruled to keep partial birth abortion a living campaign issue. The Republicans were exploiting women, Pro-Life voters, and the very lives of the unborn with the partial birth abortion bill they presented.
Correct. It is solely about fundraising and scare mongering.


…. She told me point blank that if she lived in America she couldn't afford medical insurance. Not having medical insurance, being too poor to pay for childcare, and not having the money to pay for the expenses of pregnancy she said she would choose abortion.
This is the result of the “welfare reform” of the conservative pro-life politicians. It strengthens the impression of pro-life being all about the fetus but not caring for women or babies. It continues to give us the evidence that pro-life uses abortion as a means of control and oppression of women. Nothing we see is dissuading us of this impression. Hence the confrontation and lack of change. Pro-life politics and scare mongering deception directly is the reason why
America sees so many more abortions than the rest of the Western world. It is pro-life that is the cause for so much “baby killing.” Hence, the pro-life position inherently is hypocritical as presented in general.

The Democrats on the other hand have drafted a plan. While yes for the most part they are still "Pro-Choice", they are actually going to push for policies that will save lives.
Because Democrats are about individual choices and freedom of choice in your personal life. Democrats will happily increase the quality and availability of sex-ed, contraception and support for pregnant women and new families. The ones who oppose this and thus cause the increase in demand for abortions, those are the pro-life conservatives and fundies. THEY are the problem.


Address the needs and issues women face when confronted with an unplanned or crisis pregnancy and they will not feel so scared and alone.
Agreed. But the pro-life policy goal is not to stop abortion, but rather is about controlling and oppressing women. So they won’t go that route; instead choosing the hate mongering, scare mongering, theocratic, misogynistic, oppressive route. That is why we are still fighting them, and that is why there won’t be any meaningful change in the number of abortions in the US anytime soon.

I think I can agree with a lot of what you are suggesting for means of reducing the number of abortions. But I suggest that the rest of the pro-lifers will chew you up as your ideas counter their agenda.
 

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steen said:
I think I can agree with a lot of what you are suggesting for means of reducing the number of abortions. But I suggest that the rest of the pro-lifers will chew you up as your ideas counter their agenda.
For the rest of the pro-lifers to chew him up they would need to come to the table armed with some new teeth. It is a matter of simple mechanics and rote propaganda to oppose your polar opposite. It takes much more intricate and thoughtful maneuvering to denounce a call for moderation from within your own ranks. I, for one, am looking forward to future discussions here.
 

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If they abandoned this in favor of helping and supporting women, the pro-choice side would join and abortion rates would immediately drop tremendously.
:cry:

Then countless lives could be saved and no woman would be oppressed. I believe it would be a win/win situation.

Much of the Pro-Life movement as ceased being "Pro-Life". It is merely "Anti-Abortion". They're only policy is to ban abortion and throw people in jail. We need to do what will save lives and assist mothers.

We can do better.

"16Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:16-18 (KJV)
 
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steen

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ChristopherHall said:
Then countless lives could be saved and no woman would be oppressed. I believe it would be a win/win situation.
Agreed. But my experience with pro-life is that this is not what they seek. They seek to use abortion as a toll for bringing back the "good old days" of patriarchal, theocratic oppression of women by keeping them in "their place."

THAT is what the powers in the pro-life movement really is after by any means I have used to look at this with.

Never mind how I evaluate it, the refusal to adapt measures that could lower the need for abortions is a rejection of women as having more control of their own lives. It is pure misogyny; I haven't seen any other answer than that in the decades where I have been discussing this. I believe that reducing women's perceived need for abortions run counter to the agenda of pro-life because of this.
 

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ChristopherHall said, “I believe that education is very important but I wouldn't call it the key and invest all my energies into it. Here's why, people in our generation know more about gestational development than any other generation in history. I believe when it comes to sexual education our generation is the most educated also. Yet this most educated generation still sees frightened women seeking abortions. I believe education in this area is important but actually seeking to meet the needs and assist desperate women with solid national policies that are in their favor are more important.”
Chris, I believe you are so so wrong here. This generation knows nothing about gestational development. I have been working fairs, schools, universities, colleges, churches, you name it, manning the booths and talking to people for over 12 years.
People are misinformed and ignorant in this area. Even the pregnant woman and the woman who have given birth are shocked when they read and see the models, videos and pictures that we have on display. Have you worked in the pro-life area?

People need to be educated. They need to know that the life they are taking has a beating heart….and brain waves. They need to know that abortion is a quick solution to a problem that will most likely come back to haunt them. I had an abortion over 25 years ago. Never bothered me until I turned 35 when I really read about abortion and learned about gestational development. My sister had a child at 21 ½ weeks. (she is now 13 and a highly intelligent teenager) Then I realized what I had done. The therapy started, the depression………

You said, “I disagree. If there are measures that can be taken to protect unborn life and the "Pro-Life" party refuses to impliment those measures the blood is on their hands, and perhaps even more so because they are supposed to be "Pro-Life".
Chris the Democrats voted FOR PARTIAL BIRTH ABORTION. THE REPUBLICANS DID NOT. Do you not hear Kennedy, Boxer, Gore….? The Democrats voted to allow late term pregnancies for whatever reasons. They condone abortion. They voted against parental notification……….
How can people make an educated decision when they do NOT KNOW THE TRUTH? Education is key.

I gave you a website that shows how each Democrat voted in regards to partial birth abortion. It was almost unanimous.

“If a young girl becomes pregnant because her father is abusing her and she wants an abortion, notifying her father may bring serious harm to her. Often fathers will beat their daughters for becoming pregnant and then will drive them to the abortion clinics. A parental consent bill should provide some way of protecting a young girl from abusive parents.”
This is a minute minority Chris. The majority of young girls getting pregnant are sexually active with boys around their own age. Parents have the right if their child is underage to know what is going on. They have a right. Talk about government control……… Do you have children?
Who is supposed to pick up the pieces should the abortion cause damage? Depression? Suicide? Complications?

Shoot in many states you need parental notification for tattoos. You think its right to have to have an underaged teenager get permission for a tatto and not an abortion? Where is the logic in that?

You said, “As I have said before, most Republicans merely want to ban abortion and throw people in jail. Republicans do not have concrete policies that offer assistance or incentives to women facing unwanted or crisis pregnancies so that most of their fears are relieved and they can choose life. “
What is wrong Chris with banning abortion? It used to be illegal? Anyone who is a Christian should that abortion is taking a life. You can’t sit on the fence on this issue.
“While yes for the most part they are still "Pro-Choice", they are actually going to push for policies that will save lives”
For the most part the party is almost entirely pro-choice in every area but vouchers.

You mention a few I’d like to comment on.

1.Conduct a National Study & Update Abortion Data
Why? It is not required that states submit any kind of abortion information at all.
2.Federal Funding for Pregnancy Prevention Education Right now Planned Parenthood (the worlds largest abortion provider is allowed to go into schools to hand out their information…they give their locations their hours…..) But no organization that is connected with Right To Life is allowed in. We go to private schools. We do not condemn abortion…but we show them that abortion is taking a life and they should be aware of what they are doing. Would the democrats be in favor of allowing this? Not on your life.
Our public schools do everything in this area already. It’s called sex education. They even hand out condoms.
3.Federal Funding for Abortion Counseling and Daycare on University Campuses…What is funny Chris is that they want to provide counseling to woman who obviously have deep regret over their abortion, the abortion the Democrats allowed to happen. The very fact that woman need counseling shows that the majority of woman at one time or another regret what they did.
4. Parental Notification…..ironic that they are for this considering the majority of Democrats voted against notifying parents in the case of their minor childs abortion.


“Address the needs and issues women face when confronted with an unplanned or crisis pregnancy and they will not feel so scared and alone.”
I agree but woman of all ages need to know regardless of what situation they are in, that abortion kills. I also volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. Many of the girls who come in come from two parent homes. They are teenagers, they slept around and they became pregnant.

“What do you think matters most to God...lives saved or clauses on paper?”
Well you know what matters to God, are souls. We are to preach His word…that is what the Great Commission is all about. To save lives.
Do you think God blesses those who continually on a daily basis take lives? You think he has a high regard for the nurses and doctors who perform the dismemberment of children. Gods children. God gives us one life Chris. And it is during this life that we decide who we will follow, Satan or Christ. We determine what happens to us. To live a Christian life, to hold a Christian worldview, not just when it suits us but ALL THE TIME……..24-7. He does not expect us to cave in to those who mock us. We are not to cave into political correctness. We as children of God must stand up for the innocent. And the innocent are being slaughtered.
 

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You are right scriptures do have a lot to say. If I might add.....

"Can a woman forget her infant, or be without tenderness for the child in her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee." --Isaiah 49:15 (notice the word child)

"...and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb." --Luke 1:15

"This is what the Lord says- He who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you" --Isaiah 44:2

"For You created my innermost being; You knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise You because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." --Psalm 139:13-14


"Before I was born the Lord called me...from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name." "And now the Lord says-He who formed me in the womb to be His servant..." --Isaiah 49:1,5

"But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace..." --Galatians 1:15

"If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life..." --Exodus 21:22-25

In Judges 13:2-7 we see God consecrating Samson before birth, in Isa. 49:1,5 we see the same applies to Jesus (also Gal. 1:15), and at Luke 1:13-17 we see it applies to John as well.

Wasn't John the Baptist filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb? Paul, was called and set apart for the works of God while still in his mother's womb.

God says that before Jeremiah was born that He knew him and had already appointed him as a prophet. Do you think that if God knew Jeremiah, he might have known us? He might have known every child that has been aborted?
I think its in Jer. 1:5 that God says he appointed Jeremiah prophet before he was born, in the womb.

"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother's womb."

Think a child might be filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb?

Abortion is wrong. It is against everything Godly. It is plain to see that we are God's property and not our own. God has plans ordained for us long before we come into this world.
Do we have the right to interfere? Do we have the right to take a life that really does not even belong to us?

I sense Chris that you are sort of slamming the character of pro-lifers. Maybe I am wrong, if I am I truely am sorry. The success of the pro-life position is dependent on the publics denial that abortion kills children. It is the pro-choice position, not the pro-life position that is cruel. It is hard to fathom this level of pro-choice cruelty towards precious children. No matter what the circumstance is, we must speak out and define abortion for what it really is. Abortions goal is to kill the child. As Christians that should be our first statement concerning this issue.

I sense that you feel that pro-lifers don’t care about woman, and they don’t care about babies once they’re born. That is not true. Pro-lifers are actively involved in caring for woman in crisis pregnancies and difficult child-raising situations.

“ In virtually every part of the United States there are abortion alternative centers that provide free pregnancy tests, counseling, and free material and human resources to pregnant woman. There are more pro-life help-giving centers, well over three thousand of them, than there are pro-life education and political action centers. There are more abortion alternative centers in the United States than there are abortion clinics.”
(John Willke, “The Real Woman’s Movement,” National Right to Life News, 14 December 1989,3.)
There are places for woman in every circumstance to go get help. That is no excuse. Problem is these clinics draw business away from abortion clinics, and they have come underfire from the pro-choice movement and its representatives in the media.

Bottom line….Prolifers are actively involved in caring for unwanted children and other disposable people in society. It is the abortion providers who do not provide support for woman choosing anything other than abortion.

"What happens to the mind of a person, and the moral fabric of a nation, that accepts the aborting of the life of a baby without a pang of conscience? What kind of a person and what kind of a society will we have 20 years hence if life can be taken so casually? It is that question, the question of our attitude, our value system, and our mind-set with regard to the nature and worth of life itself that is the central question confronting mankind. Failure to answer that question affirmatively may leave us with a hell right here on earth."
--Rev. Jesse Jackson, January 1977
What a wise man the Reverend was. He was right in his prediction.
 

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doughgirl, you and I both would love to see abortion banned one day. We both agree that it is a terrible thing. We both understand what the Bible has to say. My point is that the "Republicans" have no interest in saving lives beyond political pandering. Here are a few of my issues with them and some of my thoughts:

-The "Republicans" who say they are Pro-Life merely push for banning abortion and throwing people in jail.

-The "Republicans" are banning funding to important programs that poor women who are pregnant or who have children depend upon, but then giving billions of dollars in tax breaks and tax cuts to corporations.

-At least the "Democrats" who are Pro-Life have an agenda that will begin saving babies as soon as it is implimented even while Roe stands.

-"Republicans" purposely disregarded the court's request for a health statute in the PBA ban. Anyone who knows anything about politics and the writing of bills knows this is a political strategy as old as the republic. Frankly the Republicans crafted a partial birth abortion ban that they KNEW would be overturned by the courts. Why? Why not pass a ban the court would uphold and amend it as necessary later? I'll tell you why....they knew that if the PBA ban got overruled by the courts it would generate more grass roots support for Republicans among Pro-Lifer's...it's a very old trick. This means the Republicans are playing with lives for political gain.

-Yes, and sadly, many Democrats voted against the Partial Birth Abortion Ban. But please understand that voting against something is not voting for something. Some bills are voted against a number of times until they are modified to meet the standards of the court, then many of those who voted against a given bill will actually vote for it. When the Democrats voted against the Partial Birth Abortion Ban they were not voting "for Partial Birth Abortion". Many voted against it because it didn't have the health clause as required by the court. Many voted against it because it was primarliy a Republian bill. They were being partisians. Also it is important to note that many Democrats voted in favor of the Partial Birth Abortion Bill. On March 14, 2003 seventeen senators, including 11 Democrats, voted both to enforce the PBA ban, indicating that even senators who consider themselves supporters of abortion rights judged the procedure to be extreme. (It should be noted that the Democrat Senate leader, Tom Daschle, also voted to end PBA). Yet "Republican" Pro-Life people paint all the Democrats with a broad brush and fail to see the moderate and Pro-Lifers in the Democratic Party.

-The Republican Party has done everything in their power to kill any initiative that would reduce the abortion rate aside from abortion bans.

In America right now we have roughly 20 abortions for every 1,000 pregnancies. I look at Belgium and they have only 8 abortions for every 1,000 pregnancies. That's the lowest abortion rate in the world! That's even a lower abortion rate than what is found in countries that have successfully banned abortion. Certainly if we are REALLY Pro-Life we could learn a lot from Belgium.

My problem is that Republicans merely want to ban abortion and that's all. Republicans are not for initiatives like those implimented by President Clinton or found in Belgium that have been proven successful at reducing the abortion rate. If you look at countries where abortion has been banned, many have higher abortoin rates than we do. That means that banning abortion doesn't guarantee that the abortion rates will be reduced. Banning abortion may not save a single life because if a woman really wants an abortion she will seek to find one even if they are illegal. The Republicans would have you fight for another 20 years to ban abortion in our country while the abortion rate stays at roughly 20 abortions per 1,000 pregnancies or even rises! Pro-Life Democrats on the other hand wish to impliment initiatives that will reduce the abortion rate in our country and then seek to ban abortion.

Question,

Let's compare Belgium with the United States and Peru.

United States
Abortion Rate: 17 per 1,000 pregnancies
Legal Status of Abortion: Legal

Peru
Abortion Rate: 51.8 per 1,000 pregnancies
Legal Status of Abortion: Illegal

Belgium
Abortion Rate: 8 per 1,000 pregnancies
Legal Status of Abortion: Legal

Now let me ask, which nation is actually saving more lives? Also which nation do you believe God is most pleased with?
 
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