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Anti-maskers explain themselves

I fully concede that a Mayo Clinic report has more impact and scientific backing than some guy with respirator training. I do not claim to be more than I am. I was pointing out where I was coming from from a disclosure standpoint. In other words - I have training, but there are entities out there that may have more technical expertise than I do.



No. Completely wrong because you skip right over the word that matters in my sentence. Prevent. Your Mayo Clinic reference agrees with me. Masks do not "prevent".

And I quote from your provided source -

"Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus."

"Cloth face coverings are most likely to reduce the spread of the COVID-19 virus when they are widely used by people in public settings."

Note the bolded words. No rational human with an understanding of the English language can conclude that wearing a mask prevents the spread. This is according to your source. Note that this is a source that you and I both agree is more appropriate to reference than some guy on line with respirator training (even though my mask use statements are confirmed by your source). In essence what your source has done is confirm my position, not weaken it.

Ignorance - yours. And it is rampant.

Also keep in mind that my statement regarding proper mask wearing coincides with your referenced article in the "how to wear a cloth face mask" section. Note the use of the word "sanitized" in that section.

It feels good to have my training confirmed by the Mayo Clinic. Feather in my cap, thanks for that.
Ah I see so you're justifying the right to choose whether or not you wear a mask because the mask doesn't prevent COVID and rather it "slows the spread"? Right now, you're picking away at my words trying to find faults in my arguments but preventing and slowing the spread are related to each other. Ok, let's just assume that your argument is plausible. So, you're saying masks slow the spread of COVID? Well, that's great. You just proved my point for me. Masks work. I'll spell it out nice and slow. Masks=slows the spread of COVID and slowing the spread of COVID=good, therefore masks=good. The way you presented and explained your argument is so misleading. It sounds to me as if you're saying since masks don't PREVENT the spread of COVID, they don'twork. So your argument is based off the idea that masks (the things that "slow the spread of the virus") do NOT work. Can you at least admit that masks are beneficial?
 
Executive orders have the force of law just like those enacted by legislators. You don’t get to choose which to obey. State constitutions and legislative actions have granted executive order powers to Governors.

You have it backwards. You don’t know whether or not you have it. Therefore there is a risk that you can infect others.

Why do you people want to continue to keep people sick and dying and trash the economy when if you would get on board with what the scientists want us to do we would be much better off?

You are the reason we are the 206th worst out of 215 countries as measured by deaths per million population.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
The answer to your "why" question is simply 'arrogance'. "I'm American, nobody tells me what to do", pretty much sums up the attitude of these libertarian idiots. They contend that they love their country, but they're too ****ing stupid to understand that the more people they infect, the fewer healthy people there are to work, pay taxes and contribute to keeping their America great. Brainless twats, the whole sorry bunch of the throwback morons.
 
A mask or rag over your mouth and nose isn’t going to parent you from becoming infected or passing that infection.
It's not a 100% guarantee anymore than a parachute is, but would you jump out of a plane without one? By all means join the almost 250,000 dead Americans, many of whom were likely as sceptical as you. I choose life and wear a mask to mitigate against my chances of catching this hideous disease. You do whatever you want.
 
Ah I see so you're justifying the right to choose whether or not you wear a mask because the mask doesn't prevent COVID and rather it "slows the spread"

No. I am saying, multiple times now, that no single government official should have the right to mandate that you wear a mask. Executive orders usurp the authority of the legislature when used in this manner. We have checks and balances within the government for a reason, mostly because we are not a kingdom - one person should not control you. Or me.

Right now, you're picking away at my words trying to find faults in my arguments but preventing and slowing the spread are related to each other. Ok, let's just assume that your argument is plausible. So, you're saying masks slow the spread of COVID?

That is the stated goal of all of our COVID methods. Prevent our medical system from being overwhelmed. The manner in which the public uses masks is of very low effectiveness, if it is effective at all. This is why your source couches their phrases with words such as "likely".

Well, that's great. You just proved my point for me. Masks work.

I did no such thing, and you have made a massive leap from my concession to effectiveness. The degree of effectiveness is in doubt from multiple sources - your referenced article included. When was the last time you bagged your mask? Sanitized it? Read your article.

I'll spell it out nice and slow. Masks=slows the spread of COVID and slowing the spread of COVID=good, therefore masks=good.

If you believe this to be true, then wear a mask. If you believe that driving 5 miles below the speed limit is safer, then do so. If you believe that wearing a coat in the fall prevents you from catching a cold, then do so. Just don't support anyone mandating that I behave a certain way because of your "likely effectiveness" beliefs. All things have risks.

The way you presented and explained your argument is so misleading. It sounds to me as if you're saying since masks don't PREVENT the spread of COVID, they don'twork.

I will say it again, for the cheap seats. Mask use is a mitigating factor, at best. I am not misleading you at all - I am being precise. Mask use, the way in which the public uses masks, is a complete disgrace to preventing the spread of anything. Again - read your article. No one does all of that when using a mask. Waste of time and resources. And even if they did all that, we are still just discussing a percentage play tactic. Masks are not preventative - unless they are a respirator rated for micron level pathogen prevention. The effectiveness of masks with proper use is low, and the way in which they are used makes them even lower on the effectiveness scale.

So your argument is based off the idea that masks (the things that "slow the spread of the virus") do NOT work. Can you at least admit that masks are beneficial?

Mitigating factor. At best. Low percentage play that in my judgement and training is not worth the effort. How do masks prevent COVID from entering the eyeballs, again?

At the end of the day disease exists. It always has. It always will. The countermeasures are worse than the disease, to say nothing of the massive abuse of power exhibited by governors and mayors everywhere.

I would rather live in freedom than die in fear. Over 97% of our nation does not have COVID. Over 95% of those who have had COVID live. Those who do die are overwhelmingly in select at risk categories. Protect those people and stop wasting time and resources mitigating the chance of exposure from a disease that most of us will not catch. Those of us who can need to get back you work and start paying our taxes. The bill for this stupidity is coming due.
 
If you believe this to be true, then wear a mask. If you believe that driving 5 miles below the speed limit is safer, then do so. If you believe that wearing a coat in the fall prevents you from catching a cold, then do so. Just don't support anyone mandating that I behave a certain way because of your "likely effectiveness" beliefs. All things have risks.
So using your logic, say I am driving 20 mph in a 25 mph. Now say you are driving 50 in that same 25 mph zone and you hit me. Whose fault is that? Your rights end where mine begins. If you wear a mask, you're not protecting yourself. You're protecting me. Say somehow you have COVID and you're not wearing a mask and you give it to me (I AM wearing a mask). I live with two sisters who have severe asthma. My point is this: not wearing a mask goes so much farther than the person you're interacting with so why on earth would you jeopardize other's safety just to maintain your idea of rights?

Mitigating factor. At best. Low percentage play that in my judgement and training is not worth the effort. How do masks prevent COVID from entering the eyeballs, again?
Why is it that disease EXPERTS (people who have achieved higher education than you and me both) say to the American public that masks work? Why do studies show that if America implemented a mask mandate, 100,000 less people would die? And please don't tell me that these experts are liberal pawns pushing a democratic agenda. Why is it that every other developed country has implemented a mask mandate without dispute? Because other developed countries don't have uneducated (as in not college educated) and ignorant groups of people (like select Trump supporters)
 
I posted that info elsewhere. I don’t disagree that masks are not 100% effective against any virus. The studies I’ve read shows that. The studies (I’ve read list the effectiveness of each type) with cloth masks being on the low side of efficacy. But their general conclusion is that any mask is better than none. You disagree?

If a mask is just a tiny bit better than no mask, then it isn't worth it. So we need to know HOW much better the typical mask is than nothing. Do the advantages, if any, outweigh the disadvantages, if any. I have not seen any clear statements or evidence. The medical authorities expect us to be obedient sheep, and they feel they should seem like experts. So they say whatever they feel at them moment and the public obeys.
 
At the outset of the pandemic, Amy, a 48-year-old mother of two from Ohio, was afraid. When the government began recommending people wear masks, she not only complied but also made masks for others. “I was like, oh, this is scary, this could be really bad,” she said.

But when Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine announced the state would extend its lockdown for the month of May, she’d had it. Pandemic over or not, she was done.


Americans are funny that way. If something stops being new and interesting, many Americans will just decide that it no longer exists.
 
The answer to your "why" question is simply 'arrogance'. "I'm American, nobody tells me what to do", pretty much sums up the attitude of these libertarian idiots. They contend that they love their country, but they're too ****ing stupid to understand that the more people they infect, the fewer healthy people there are to work, pay taxes and contribute to keeping their America great. Brainless twats, the whole sorry bunch of the throwback morons.

You know, the UK has more than its fair share of mask and social-distancing rebels. You should watch who you're calling names unless you're a bit more inclusive in your nasty criticisms.
 
Shouldn't the germophobes be the ones hiding at home since you are the ones afraid of the earth we live on? Surely you wont get sick if you shelter at home and put aluminum foil over your windows.
I think liberals should start carrying guns, to protect us from antimaskers.
 
If a mask is just a tiny bit better than no mask, then it isn't worth it. So we need to know HOW much better the typical mask is than nothing. Do the advantages, if any, outweigh the disadvantages, if any. I have not seen any clear statements or evidence. The medical authorities expect us to be obedient sheep, and they feel they should seem like experts. So they say whatever they feel at them moment and the public obeys.
I probably should do a review of this thread before responding but that might take too much time.

I understand your point and agree basically with it. The so called experts (Fauci in particular) have made confusing and/or contradictory remarks on guidelines. Fauci, for example is now backing mask mandates when early on he advised against masks. His defenders claim he’s learned more since initially downplaying the need for masks. Nonsense. He knew full well that masks offered protection otherwise he wouldn’t have been concerned about making sure first responders had first dibs on them.

When weighing advantages vs disadvantages the risk factor is always tantamount to any decision. If wearing one presents a risk then by all means that person should be exempt. For those with little or no risk I see no harm on erring on the side of safety. Wear a mask. However, there is one matter which many seem to be ignorant of or ignore. Who does the mask protect?

The science seems clear in that masks primarily protect others from you if you’re infected. But what about asymptomatic people? Given that the statistics indicate that most people recover from Covid (and this is in no way a dismissal of the deaths) I favor individual choice over government mandates. Let the businesses decide how to address it. Let people who shop decide where they want to shop based on their concerns. Let the people decide. Obviously the experts are having trouble making up their minds.

We have come through other pandemics without the massive shutdowns we are being subjected to. Treatments are improving. Vaccines are just around the corner. Contrary to the gloom and doom crowd I think we’ll come through this soon. Does that mean Covid will disappear? No. It just means we will handle it better.
 
Good pos

Good post. My daughter is one of those anti-mask people. Her family was recently exposed to a possible contagious person. When she wanted to come over with the grandkids to visit I told her she and the kids would have to wear masks. She wanted to argue with me. I had to tell her to just stay home then. That’s not easy to do.
I feel for you. Fortunately my family and I are all on the same page with mask wearing and social distancing. It is painful not to be with your family but being 77 with asthma I want to be around for awhile yet and my family want that too and I for them.
 
I feel for you. Fortunately my family and I are all on the same page with mask wearing and social distancing. It is painful not to be with your family but being 77 with asthma I want to be around for awhile yet and my family want that too and I for them.
That’s great Carleen. You’re fortunate indeed to have a supportive family. Stay safe.
 
You know, the UK has more than its fair share of mask and social-distancing rebels. You should watch who you're calling names unless you're a bit more inclusive in your nasty criticisms.
I'll call whoever, whatever, within forum rules, but thanks for the suggestion.
 
So using your logic, say I am driving 20 mph in a 25 mph. Now say you are driving 50 in that same 25 mph zone and you hit me. Whose fault is that? Your rights end where mine begins. If you wear a mask, you're not protecting yourself. You're protecting me. Say somehow you have COVID and you're not wearing a mask and you give it to me (I AM wearing a mask). I live with two sisters who have severe asthma. My point is this: not wearing a mask goes so much farther than the person you're interacting with so why on earth would you jeopardize other's safety just to maintain your idea of rights?


Why is it that disease EXPERTS (people who have achieved higher education than you and me both) say to the American public that masks work? Why do studies show that if America implemented a mask mandate, 100,000 less people would die? And please don't tell me that these experts are liberal pawns pushing a democratic agenda. Why is it that every other developed country has implemented a mask mandate without dispute? Because other developed countries don't have uneducated (as in not college educated) and ignorant groups of people (like select Trump supporters)

Many of your issues have already been addressed in this thread. Posts 143,156,168, and 183.

If both diseases and masks have been around for over a century, and masks are effective at preventing the spread of disease, why did we not live in a society of mandatory mask use for the past century? How many lives could we have saved?

We are behaving in an entirely unique manner under current conditions, and current conditions are not statistically sufficient to warrant it. This is not an Ebola level disease. 350 million Americans, 230,000 COVID deaths. Statistically a small number and COVID is not even the highest death toll tracked by the CDC.

Why have we not taken precautions such as mask use prior to 2020? Why are we treating COVID differently?

I am suggesting fear and ignorance. I am not a believer in conspiracy liberal-conservative diabolical plots.
 
Many of your issues have already been addressed in this thread. Posts 143,156,168, and 183.

If both diseases and masks have been around for over a century, and masks are effective at preventing the spread of disease, why did we not live in a society of mandatory mask use for the past century? How many lives could we have saved?

We are behaving in an entirely unique manner under current conditions, and current conditions are not statistically sufficient to warrant it. This is not an Ebola level disease. 350 million Americans, 230,000 COVID deaths. Statistically a small number and COVID is not even the highest death toll tracked by the CDC.

Why have we not taken precautions such as mask use prior to 2020? Why are we treating COVID differently?

I am suggesting fear and ignorance. I am not a believer in conspiracy liberal-conservative diabolical plots.
We are behaving in a "unique manner" because we have encountered an entirely new and viciously virulent disease. Furthermore it is very different to Ebola which is transmitted via contact with bodily fluids and not through airborne particles. It's unlikely you would become infected by an Ebola patient by just walking past one, unlike the Coronavirus which works entirely differently,
 
If masks work, you can wear yours and leave the kids alone. Putting a mask on a child is child abuse. Your daughter is right.
Child abuse? What a bunch of ******s the R's have turned into.
 
We are behaving in a "unique manner" because we have encountered an entirely new and viciously virulent disease. Furthermore it is very different to Ebola which is transmitted via bodily fluids and not through airborne particles.

Fair enough. I should have typed "Ebola level death rate" instead of just Ebola. Point to you for calling me out on that.

My point - we have lived with SARS, Flu, Swine Flu, Spanish Flu, and all sorts of other diseases that were new. Some were more deadly than COVID, some were not.

Yet not a single time in our past have we mandated lockdowns, business closures, mask use to combat those diseases.

So your justifications do not align with history. We are acting differently now, with old technology, for a similar reason. Why?
 
Fair enough. I should have typed "Ebola level death rate" instead of just Ebola. Point to you for calling me out on that.

My point - we have lived with SARS, Flu, Swine Flu, Spanish Flu, and all sorts of other diseases that were new. Some were more deadly than COVID, some were not.

Yet not a single time in our past have we mandated lockdowns, business closures, mask use to combat those diseases.

So your justifications do not align with history. We are acting differently now, with old technology, for a similar reason. Why?
Maybe because as time has passed our knowledge of various diseases and how they are transmitted, has grown? A century ago quarantines and mask wearing during the 'Spanish' flu pandemic were commonplace in the West.
 
Child abuse? What a bunch of ******s the R's have turned into.

Side note - well done on your lifestyle. I aspire to be you someday in that regard.

As for this R - I am defending freedom and personal rights against government intrusion. I am also advocating personal responsibility. Both of these issues are more important in a free society than governmental mandated mask use via executive order.

As for ******s, I like them, when part of the female package. I can wear a mask all day long (and have done so before) but I should have the inherent freedom to choose when to do so. That is the problem, not my *****-ness level.
 
Side note - well done on your lifestyle. I aspire to be you someday in that regard.

As for this R - I am defending freedom and personal rights against government intrusion. I am also advocating personal responsibility. Both of these issues are more important in a free society than governmental mandated mask use via executive order.

As for ******s, I like them, when part of the female package. I can wear a mask all day long (and have done so before) but I should have the inherent freedom to choose when to do so. That is the problem, not my *****-ness level.
Freedom and personal rights are all very well and entirely laudable, but problems arise when adherence to one's principles adversely affects those around you; folk refusing to wear masks because of some tenuous excuse that their rights are being violated, for example, and infecting others. Common sense and caring about others evidently plays no part where 'freedom!' is concerned.
 
Maybe because as time has passed our knowledge of various diseases and how they are transmitted, has grown? A century ago quarantines and mask wearing during the 'Spanish' flu pandemic were commonplace in the West.

I have seen the pictures and the anecdotes about the spanish flu time frame. I haven't seen a study or evidence to reach the conclusion that mask use was common, but it certainly happened. We very well might be splitting hairs about descriptive words here.

So for that time the government did not mandate mask use. And we haven't mandated mask use, business closures, stay at home orders since. Why now?

I am suggesting that we have over reacted to this and are causing more problems by continuing to do those things. In today's world government programs are relied upon by millions of people, and government is losing funding due to loss of taxation because we are destroying our own economy. There is a bigger picture out there. The bill is coming due.
 
My in laws told me that if they get COVID and die then it's God's will.

I came home and told a friend that God was trying to kill stupid people.
 
Freedom and personal rights are all very well and entirely laudable, but problems arise when adherence to one's principles adversely affects those around you; folk refusing to wear masks because of some tenuous excuse that their rights are being violated, for example, and infecting others. Common sense and caring about others evidently plays no part where 'freedom!' is concerned.

Search some of my responses in this thread for details if you care to, but the problem with your reasoning is this -

In a free society the government should not be able to tell me what to do until such a time as you can prove that I have violated someone else's rights. This is a basic tenet of legal principles and our society at large that must be protected at all times, or freedom will be lost.

In other words - I don't have COVID, you can't prove I do, government should not be able to mandate that I do anything unless you can. And even then only when the government passes laws within the normal context of law implementation. Executive orders are not intended for this purpose and are an affront to the checks and balances of our government. Legislatures and city counsels all over this country should be impeaching governors and mayors for usurping their power.

Otherwise some governor is going to mandate parka use all year long because they believe keeping warm minimizes the chance of catching the deadly flu. Same reasoning.

We are behaving irrationally and contrary to a free society.
 

“If I’m going to get Covid and die from it, then so be it.”


At the outset of the pandemic, Amy, a 48-year-old mother of two from Ohio, was afraid. When the government began recommending people wear masks, she not only complied but also made masks for others. “I was like, oh, this is scary, this could be really bad,” she said.

But when Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine announced the state would extend its lockdown for the month of May, she’d had it. Pandemic over or not, she was done. After that, Amy became vehemently anti-mask and began to doubt whether the coronavirus was really that big of a deal. Her mother unfollowed her on Facebook over her “anger posts” about masks, and she hasn’t heard from her in a month. She carries a homemade mask with her, just in case, but she doesn’t believe in them.

“It’s a violation of my freedom, I think, and then also I just don’t think they work,” Amy said. “A lot of stuff says it does, but then some doesn’t.”

Masks have become an extremely heated point of contention during the Covid-19 outbreak. Viral videos of people having meltdowns over masks are commonplace, and in many parts of the country, it’s not abnormal for strangers to confront each other publicly over the issue. A small but vocal segment of the population has dug in and ignored the growing evidence that masks make a difference in combating the coronavirus. For those who believe that at the very least wearing a mask can’t hurt, it’s hard to not develop some animosity toward those who refuse. The question I keep hearing from pro-mask friends and family is always the same: What are these people thinking?

In recent weeks, I spoke with nearly a dozen people who consider themselves anti-mask to find out just that. What I discovered is that there is certainly a broad spectrum of reasons — some find wearing a mask annoying or just aren’t convinced they work, and others have gone down a rabbit hole of conspiracies that often involve vaccines, Big Pharma, YouTube, and Bill Gates. One man told me he wears a mask when he goes to the store to be polite. A woman got kicked out of a Menards store for refusing to wear a mask amid what she calls the “Covid scam garbage.”
==============================================================
People have changed quite a bit since 1918. But the Spanish Flu was very different. You could eat breakfast & be dead by nightfall.
I am going with the guy who said this in March.

When it comes to preventing coronavirus, public health officials have been clear: Healthy people do not need to wear a face mask to protect themselves from COVID-19.

"While masks may block some droplets, they do not provide the level of protection people think they do. Wearing a mask may also have unintended consequences: People who wear masks tend to touch their face more often to adjust them, which can spread germs from their hands."
 
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