Anti-maskers explain themselves

[COTO]

ahh the suffering of people who cant close their pools down.

Hey, don't knock 'em for opening it up.

Seniors their age absolutely need to keep active. While other seniors were out in the parks, malls, etc. all summer, keeping their bodies from atrophying, my grandparents could do it at home, right where you say they ought to have been. So don't knock them for it.

As for closing down a pool, if you don't do so up here in winter, you completely destroy your pool.

But what I don't understand is why your aversion to wearing a mask is so strong that you consider it comparable to the inconvenience and distress that would be caused by forcing everyone over 70, say, to stay home unconditionally and indefinitely. I've said it here and elsewhere: I hate wearing masks as much as the next guy. But it seems to really, really bother you. Is it the principle of the thing? Do you get panic attacks? Do you feel like it's "giving into the man"? What specifically just makes it a non-starter in your mind?

 

[AlphaOmega]

Hey, don't knock 'em for opening it up.

Seniors their age absolutely need to keep active. While other seniors were out in the parks, malls, etc. all summer, keeping their bodies from atrophying, my grandparents could do it at home, right where you say they ought to have been. So don't knock them for it.

As for closing down a pool, if you don't do so up here in winter, you completely destroy your pool.

But what I don't understand is why your aversion to wearing a mask is so strong that you consider it comparable to the inconvenience and distress that would be caused by forcing everyone over 70, say, to stay home unconditionally and indefinitely. I've said it here and elsewhere: I hate wearing masks as much as the next guy. But it seems to really, really bother you. Is it the principle of the thing? Do you get panic attacks? Do you feel like it's "giving into the man"? What specifically just makes it a non-starter in your mind?

If you are using pool closure to defend the need to go out during a pandemic then things obviously arent as bad as we are being told. Just sayin. I'm glad your grandparents are active.

 

[COTO]

If you are using pool closure to defend the need to go out during a pandemic then things obviously arent as bad as we are being told. Just sayin. I'm glad your grandparents are active.

Understood. I'd still appreciate an answer to my question at the end of #126, to get an idea of where you're coming from.

 

[Paradoxical]

Anti-maskers explain themselves

"If I’m going to get Covid and die from it, then so be it."

www.vox.com

“If I’m going to get Covid and die from it, then so be it.”


At the outset of the pandemic, Amy, a 48-year-old mother of two from Ohio, was afraid. When the government began recommending people wear masks, she not only complied but also made masks for others. “I was like, oh, this is scary, this could be really bad,” she said.

But when Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine announced the state would extend its lockdown for the month of May, she’d had it. Pandemic over or not, she was done. After that, Amy became vehemently anti-mask and began to doubt whether the coronavirus was really that big of a deal. Her mother unfollowed her on Facebook over her “anger posts” about masks, and she hasn’t heard from her in a month. She carries a homemade mask with her, just in case, but she doesn’t believe in them.

“It’s a violation of my freedom, I think, and then also I just don’t think they work,” Amy said. “A lot of stuff says it does, but then some doesn’t.”

Masks have become an extremely heated point of contention during the Covid-19 outbreak. Viral videos of people having meltdowns over masks are commonplace, and in many parts of the country, it’s not abnormal for strangers to confront each other publicly over the issue. A small but vocal segment of the population has dug in and ignored the growing evidence that masks make a difference in combating the coronavirus. For those who believe that at the very least wearing a mask can’t hurt, it’s hard to not develop some animosity toward those who refuse. The question I keep hearing from pro-mask friends and family is always the same: What are these people thinking?

In recent weeks, I spoke with nearly a dozen people who consider themselves anti-mask to find out just that. What I discovered is that there is certainly a broad spectrum of reasons — some find wearing a mask annoying or just aren’t convinced they work, and others have gone down a rabbit hole of conspiracies that often involve vaccines, Big Pharma, YouTube, and Bill Gates. One man told me he wears a mask when he goes to the store to be polite. A woman got kicked out of a Menards store for refusing to wear a mask amid what she calls the “Covid scam garbage.”
==============================================================
People have changed quite a bit since 1918. But the Spanish Flu was very different. You could eat breakfast & be dead by nightfall.

Can someone explain to me Sweden and Manaus. All I hear is that they HAD a high death rate gut you can hear a pin drop when you ask how may have dies there in the last two weeks versus other countries. After that they will have to explain why people are no longer dying in New York, Comm., Mass and New Jersey when they wore masks just like all the other states, whereas other states who had LOW death rates before are now catching up.

When you do that, cite for me the scientific reports with double blind studies and HUMAN testing of the effectiveness of masks made out of cloth, TShirts, hankies and panties.

 

[George50]

Can someone explain to me Sweden and Manaus. All I hear is that they HAD a high death rate gut you can hear a pin drop when you ask how may have dies there in the last two weeks versus other countries. After that they will have to explain why people are no longer dying in New York, Comm., Mass and New Jersey when they wore masks just like all the other states, whereas other states who had LOW death rates before are now catching up.

When you do that, cite for me the scientific reports with double blind studies and HUMAN testing of the effectiveness of masks made out of cloth, TShirts, hankies and panties.

Sweden and the Northeast states are following the same strategy now as are many other countries around the world. Test like crazy and use the results to quarantine and contact trace to stop any outbreaks before they get out of hand.

New York has a test positivity rate of 0.9% (excellent) and has way more than enough contact tracers to keep up.

U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker

Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how your community is doing.

covidactnow.org

Compare that to North Dakota with an absurdly high test positivity rate of 26% and only 16% of the contact tracers needed.

U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker

Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how your community is doing.

covidactnow.org

We don’t need the studies you mention to know that masks work. There is plenty of other evidence. Combine masks and social distancing with a good testing, quarantine and contact tracing program and you have the formula that has worked around the world to dramatically slow the spread of the virus.


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[George50]

Oh sure I am. It couldn't have anything to do with all of really stupid people---especially the ones living in our most libtard cities causing the infections. All the dumbskis out with their paper masks protesting, partying---actually thinking paper masks are "magic". No, they couldn't possibly be the factor?



And what about people who know they aren't infected? SMART PEOPLE like me who have avoided all contact with other people since early March? What then does that mask accomplish other than make dumb people feel good? People like me who are actually sheltering at home and in isolation. So, if someone like that goes out into public, who are they putting at risk? Nobody.



Really? I haven't stopped spending money or buying during this pandemic, I am actually spending MORE than before the pandemic. I spend thousands each month having goods and serviced delivered to my home... and tipping all the drivers too. Not that I am going and staying in hotels or flying on airplanes, but I wouldn't do that now even if everyone around me had on a mask on because if you are sitting on an airplane near an infected person for hours at some point YOU ARE inhaling their infected cells, and you WILL get infected--- and then some paper mask--- maybe on correctly or off at some point, won't help you anyway.



If someone is on a desert highway in the middle of the night with no cars coming in either direction for miles and miles and for many hours---- who cares how fast or slow that guy is driving?

That is the better analogy.




No, but it sounds like you are being histrionic about the mask thing. You see your entire perspective on this is that you expect OTHER PEOPLE to keep you safe. Well, I don't think that way, I don't trust other people, so I keep myself safe, and in doing that, I am actually the one keeping YOU safe. Get it?

Your comment about liberal cities causing the infections doesn’t hold water. Yes, a city with millions of people is going to have more infections than a small rural county but the rural areas are now getting hit harder than NYC ever was. At it’s worst NYC was seeing an average of 65 per 100,000 population new cases daily. The new record holder looks to be Woodward county, Oklahoma currently with 566 per 100,000 population new cases daily. Dumbskis?


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[Court Jester]

If you never leave your house and no one comes in then you don’t need to wear a mask. However, given that you are discouraging people from wearing masks, you are still part of the problem.

I'm not telling anyone else what to do. People want to wear a mask driving around by themselves in a car looking like a Bozo I don't give a damn. And if they want to wear one inside a grocery store because they think it makes everyone safer---good for them. I'm just saying that for those demanding other people to wear a mask like it is a real "life or death" matter, to take a chill pill and relax. All this "mask hysteria" is making the mentally and emotionally fragile people miserable.

I was watching the TV the other day, and there is Sleepy Joe Biden at a podium giving a speech OUTSIDE---- at least 10 yards from the nearest person to him (which are all Secret Service people being tested everyday), and all I could think was some people want this guy to have his finger on the nuclear trigger, this retard?

Do you not realize that 80% of the mask thing is about virtue signaling and not any actual need?

People that don’t wear masks are endangering the people who make and deliver the goods and services that are keeping you alive.

Well, first off they aren't keeping me alive, they are making a delivery... they aren't folding my parachute for me before I jump out of a plane. So not sure how you believe they are "keeping me alive" because they wear a mask while walking up to my door? How do I know what they are doing inside the delivery van? They could be picking covid buggers and wiping them on my packages for all I know? Seeing them with a mask on doesn't prove anything to me, and I will wipe down the packages and wash my hands after anyway. Not that I think that is a major risk factor anyway. And why do I need a mask on at my home for that exchange? They walk up and leave a package at my door; I'm not rushing out to give them a smooch on the lips. If they don't want to wear a mask, I'm fine with that--- doesn't bother me one way or the other. And I'm not putting a mask on where I can maintain 10-15 feet from them anyway, NO NEED for that.

I

t must be a lonely life for you. Most people would not want to live that way. The rest of us would be better off if people would take the simple step of wearing a mask so that we can better control the virus and people can live a more normal life.

I guess you never had a biology course, WE don't control these viruses, not this way. The virus is out there, and the virus will do what IT WILL DO until it is done doing it up to the point of herd immunity. Not saying hand washing and social distancing don't help. At some point the mask mandates are just to make some people feel better, and that is all. Winter is approaching and this virus is going to rear up again and start spreading just as they all do.

 

[AlphaOmega]

Understood. I'd still appreciate an answer to my question at the end of #126, to get an idea of where you're coming from.

Sure, your grandparents need to close their pool doesnt outweigh the disruption of society, businesses closing and people losing their livelihood.

 

[snakestretcher]

200,000 have not died of covid-19. The number is closer to 1/10th that many.

Really? And you know this, how?

 

[Paradoxical]

Sweden and the Northeast states are following the same strategy now as are many other countries around the world. Test like crazy and use the results to quarantine and contact trace to stop any outbreaks before they get out of hand.

New York has a test positivity rate of 0.9% (excellent) and has way more than enough contact tracers to keep up.

U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker

Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how your community is doing.

covidactnow.org

Compare that to North Dakota with an absurdly high test positivity rate of 26% and only 16% of the contact tracers needed.

U.S. COVID Risk & Vaccine Tracker

Covid Act Now has real-time tracking of your community's COVID risk level. Explore how your community is doing.

covidactnow.org

We don’t need the studies you mention to know that masks work. There is plenty of other evidence. Combine masks and social distancing with a good testing, quarantine and contact tracing program and you have the formula that has worked around the world to dramatically slow the spread of the virus.


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Sweden never shut down or wore masks. A little thing you "forgot".

 

[COTO]

Sure, your grandparents need to close their pool doesnt outweigh the disruption of society, businesses closing and people losing their livelihood.

We're talking about masking in this thread, not the lockdown.

My positions on the tolerability of the two differ. Nobody is losing their business or livelihood because of a masking requirement.

 

[snakestretcher]

Hey, don't knock 'em for opening it up.

Seniors their age absolutely need to keep active. While other seniors were out in the parks, malls, etc. all summer, keeping their bodies from atrophying, my grandparents could do it at home, right where you say they ought to have been. So don't knock them for it.

As for closing down a pool, if you don't do so up here in winter, you completely destroy your pool.

But what I don't understand is why your aversion to wearing a mask is so strong that you consider it comparable to the inconvenience and distress that would be caused by forcing everyone over 70, say, to stay home unconditionally and indefinitely. I've said it here and elsewhere: I hate wearing masks as much as the next guy. But it seems to really, really bother you. Is it the principle of the thing? Do you get panic attacks? Do you feel like it's "giving into the man"? What specifically just makes it a non-starter in your mind?

It's the arrogant (ignorant?), 'freedom' thingy the libertarian crowd keep going on about. They act as if the temporary inconvenience of having to wear a mask is likened to a 20 year sentence in the Gulag. What a whiny bunch of 'nobody tells me what to do!' snowflakes.

 

[snakestretcher]

Sweden never shut down or wore masks. A little thing you "forgot".

Yes and as a result their deaths are exponentially greater than their neighbours. "But Sweden..."

 

[COTO]

It's the arrogant (ignorant?), 'freedom' thingy the libertarian crowd keep going on about. They act as if the temporary inconvenience of having to wear a mask is likened to a 20 year sentence in the Gulag. What a whiny bunch of 'nobody tells me what to do!' snowflakes.

From what I've seen, most resistance is based on principle rather than inconvenience. Many people see COVID-related policies as exercises by tyrannical governments to see how far people can be pressed into compliance. They see masking in particular as an overt symbol of oppression, designed to erase individuality and mark the wearer as fully under governmental control. (It doesn't help that some book series have featured masking for this specific reason.)

Whatever the intent of masking policies, now that the issue is so politicized, the above symbolism is what's perceived. Hence I don't marvel when people liken mask wearing to "a 20 year sentence in the Gulag", even if I strongly disagree with this.

I agree that a mask is a symbol of compliance, but I also know that compliance isn't ipso facto a bad thing. For my fellow Christians and me, scripture is clear that if governmental policies aren't life- or morally threatening, we are to submit to them for the sake of peace and the common good--even if we consider them unnecessary, unreasonable, or humiliating.

 

[COTO]

Yes and as a result their deaths are exponentially greater than their neighbours. "But Sweden..."

'Exponentially' refers to a rate of growth, not a relative magnitude. Sweden's present rate of growth is barely anything. The curve certainly isn't exponential.

Sorry. I realize what you mean is "by an order of magnitude", but it bugs me when people misuse 'exponentially'.

 

[snakestretcher]

'Exponentially' refers to a rate of growth, not a relative magnitude. Sweden's present rate of growth is barely anything. The curve certainly isn't exponential.

Sorry. I realize what you mean is "by an order of magnitude", but it bugs me when people misuse 'exponentially'.

Yes, my mistake. But you got my point.

 

[snakestretcher]

From what I've seen, most resistance is based on principle rather than inconvenience. Many people see COVID-related policies as exercises by tyrannical governments to see how far people can be pressed into compliance. They see masking in particular as an overt symbol of oppression, designed to erase individuality and mark the wearer as fully under governmental control. (It doesn't help that some book series have featured masking for this specific reason.)

Whatever the intent of masking policies, now that the issue is so politicized, the above symbolism is what's perceived. Hence I don't marvel when people liken mask wearing to "a 20 year sentence in the Gulag", even if I strongly disagree with this.

I agree that a mask is a symbol of compliance, but I also know that compliance isn't ipso facto a bad thing. For my fellow Christians and me, scripture is clear that if governmental policies aren't life- or morally threatening, we are to submit to them for the sake of peace and the common good--even if we consider them unnecessary, unreasonable, or humiliating.

Sadly the "common good" is a concept entirely alien in a conservative culture where 'individualism' and 'liberty' are misunderstood and considered absolutes without nuance. Extremism, in other words. I don't know if that's taking it too far, but that's how many disinterested observers outside America also perceive things in the US today.

 

[Nuber]

True. Not wearing a mask is more equivalent to driving 100 miles per hour where you not only endanger yourself but others as well.

Poor analogy. Speeding laws are enacted by legislatures and governments via the normal process of creating laws. In order to drive legally one must agree to obey those laws. Mask orders are largely mandates put forth via executive order - akin to the kings of old posting a declaration in the town square.

Another poor assumption on your part - that I have COVID. One must have it to spread it. And since you can't prove that I have it, how can I be causing any endangerment? So then why must I conform to a procedure that allegedly minimizes the spread of something that I don't have? You can't prove causation, yet you insist that I comply with an abnormally implemented government mandate.

To make your analogy equivalent - you must be issued the speeding ticket for driving 100 miles per hour before you ever do it. Simply because your car is capable of driving 100 mph.

 

[Paradoxical]

Yes and as a result their deaths are exponentially greater than their neighbours. "But Sweden..."

And.....??

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Show me one scientific study - replicated by other scientists - that quantifies the effectiveness of masks we wear. Do not insult me with "masks work". Or, "masks are better than nothing."
I hope that that study will show how masks hurt the wearers by forcing the wearer to inhale his own exhausts, plus very humid CO2. In numbers.

No numbers, don't bother.

Masks are better then nothing. It's not rocket science. The vast majority of Covid 19 transmission is in aerosol form from coughs and sneezes, etc. Obviously wearing a mask is no guarantee that you will not get infected, however it will improve your chances of avoiding an infection by at least 60%. Having said that, while I am in favor of retailers having the right to require that you wear a mask in their place of business, I am against the state or federal government mandating it.

 

[mrjurrs]

If masks work, you can wear yours and leave the kids alone. Putting a mask on a child is child abuse. Your daughter is right.

Under what definition would you call that abuse?

 

[Overitall]

I don't know where you live where there's no charge for grocery delivery, but it obviously ain't Canada.

Take my grandparents as an example. 89 and 91 years old, respectively. They've been taking every reasonable precaution they can to avoid contracting the virus because they're in the age bracket where it's fairly lethal.

Neither of them knows how to bank online, hence at the very least they have to occasionally visit a bank branch. They had their pool open for the summer, and closed it down recently for the fall. Closing down a pool requires going out to buy a variety of things. My grandmother's technical knowledge is such that she's lucky if she can access her e-mail let alone go shopping online. Hence she needs to visit the stores at least occasionally.

My grandmother had to go into the hospital for a biopsy of something or other--a skin lesion, I think. That can't be done over the phone.

They're doing their part by giving up 90% of their mobility. And frankly, even if they could live like prisoners in their own home with every need and service provided there, you seem to have glossed over my comment about people going out of their minds due to isolation. It's just not a reasonable expectation.


They should when you're comparing apples to apples. But we're not. We're comparing total confinement and isolation of the few versus masks for the many.

As for "physical as well as emotional issues" wearing masks: get a better mask. I can't stand the disposable ones, but you'll find some decent cotton ones online that don't accumulate moisture or perspiration and breathe pretty liberally. I like black. Makes me look like a ninja.

You have to ask yourself how well they protect you if they allow you to breathe easier. Usually it’s an indication that air moves more freely through them. And if air is moving through them what else is? Typically the more restrictive the air flow the better the protection. N95 (without the air valves) offer the best protection. I haven’t seen many of these though.

New Design Helps N95 Mask Wearers Breathe Easier

The device prevents oxygen deprivation in coronavirus-blocking respirators

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[Tralfamadore]

You have to ask yourself how well they protect you if they allow you to breathe easier. Usually it’s an indication that air moves more freely through them. And if air is moving through them what else is? Typically the more restrictive the air flow the better the protection. N95 (without the air valves) offer the best protection. I haven’t seen many of these though.

New Design Helps N95 Mask Wearers Breathe Easier

The device prevents oxygen deprivation in coronavirus-blocking respirators

www.scientificamerican.com

Are you seriously questioning why you can breathe through a mask but large particles won't come through the mask?

 

[Overitall]

Are you seriously questioning why you can breathe through a mask but large particles won't come through the mask?

No I’m saying not all masks protect you as much as you think. Cloth masks are on the bottom of the scale. But any mask is better than none.

 

[Tralfamadore]

No I’m saying not all masks protect you as much as you think. Cloth masks are on the bottom of the scale. But any mask is better than none.

OK, then forgive me. Yes, any mask is better than none.