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Anti-gay marriage rallies as NY ceremonies begin

Иосиф Сталин;1059684255 said:
I just perceive gay marriage as wrong and I have a right to perceive it as wrong. If you don't like it, then don't agree with me. Period.

If my state or the country recognizes and approves gay marriage, then I'll accept it. But I'll keep expressing my opinion about it even if it doesn't coincide with the majority's.

We passed it in Spain and I don't see that it has brought any kind of improvement on society. If anything, I think Spaniards have become more sexually perverted.

The approval of gay marriage has made a significant improvement to the lives of Spanish gays and lesbians. Even here in one of the mosr socially consevative corners of the country the climate for those coming out has improved significantly in the 12 years I've been here, and most of that as a result of people accepting that gay and lesbian relationships are as valid as any other.
I think Spaniards have become more sexually perverted
Of course, you'd have some evidence for that before making such a claim. I have a feeling that your definition of 'perverted' might be very different to mine, and indeed, many of our fellow inhabitants of this great and liberal country.
 
I think that some people's hate for homosexuals and their opinions for oppressing them from the same rights as any other person, is far more perverted than two women or men gettin' it on behind closed doors. (Even though, the thought of two men gettin' it on does kinda turn my stomach.)

Live and let live.
 
I think that some people's hate for homosexuals and their opinions for oppressing them from the same rights as any other person, is far more perverted than two women or men gettin' it on behind closed doors. (Even though, the thought of two men gettin' it on does kinda turn my stomach.)

Live and let live.

The rightwing believes in a small govt...small enough to fit in everyones' bedroom
 
Or perhaps you could present something that actually supports your argument instead of making wild allegations.

Commenting on the caselaw surrounding a legal issue is a "wild allegation?"
 
Commenting on the caselaw surrounding a legal issue is a "wild allegation?"

Yea... I was going to respond to them, but then decided not to. I don't think it'd do any good.

Hopefully those reading this thread will see who is bringing facts to support their arguments and who is making the "wild allegations".
 
"Hopefully those reading this thread will see who is bringing facts to support their arguments and who is making the 'wild allegations'." - SlackMaster

I suspect if you could support your argument you would.

That you don't is telling.
 
"Hopefully those reading this thread will see who is bringing facts to support their arguments and who is making the 'wild allegations'." - SlackMaster

I suspect if you could support your argument you would.

That you don't is telling.

You're being, at best, disingenuous, and at worst, willfully ignorant. Or perhaps you're genuinely unaware of the role that precedent plays in our legal structure?
 
"You're being, at best, disingenuous, and at worst, willfully ignorant." - Aderleth

By all means, do tell where it states that homosexual marriage is a "fundamental right" and is "protected by the Constitution".
 
"You're being, at best, disingenuous, and at worst, willfully ignorant." - Aderleth

By all means, do tell where it states that homosexual marriage is a "fundamental right" and is "protected by the Constitution".

The constitution garauntees equal rights for all
 
I feel like it's impossible to truly argue this, because marriage and the government have nothing to do with each other. I don't see any evidence that the Founding Fathers thought that the government should play any part in marriage...I think that homosexuals should just be left alone. If they can find a minister whose credentials they like who will marry them, they can get married and whatever institution supports the minister can give them their badge. It's easy enough to legally chance names if that's desired. As long as marriage is kept between consenting adults, I don't really think the government needs to play a larger role in it.
 
I feel like it's impossible to truly argue this, because marriage and the government have nothing to do with each other. I don't see any evidence that the Founding Fathers thought that the government should play any part in marriage...I think that homosexuals should just be left alone. If they can find a minister whose credentials they like who will marry them, they can get married and whatever institution supports the minister can give them their badge. It's easy enough to legally chance names if that's desired. As long as marriage is kept between consenting adults, I don't really think the government needs to play a larger role in it.

The fed govt offers benefits to married couples that it does not offer to singles. The govt definitely has something to do with marriage.
 
The fed govt offers benefits to married couples that it does not offer to singles. The govt definitely has something to do with marriage.

Well don't blame that on me. I'm not the idiot who came up with the idea of Federally supported marriages. I agree that current the government has something to do with marriage- my point is that it shouldn't and as long as it does we're going to have this issue with gay marriage. Permitting homosexual to marry is inextricably tied up with the issue of should the government be involved in marriage, and answering the second question can be enormously helpful for answering the first. So yes, I agree with you: I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying it shouldn't.
 
Well don't blame that on me. I'm not the idiot who came up with the idea of Federally supported marriages. I agree that current the government has something to do with marriage- my point is that it shouldn't and as long as it does we're going to have this issue with gay marriage. Permitting homosexual to marry is inextricably tied up with the issue of should the government be involved in marriage, and answering the second question can be enormously helpful for answering the first. So yes, I agree with you: I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying it shouldn't.

I didn't. I merely pointed out that the federal govt IS involved in marriage

And I agree that the govt at all levels should not be involved in marriage. But they are, and that's not going to change so the federal govt should not discriminate against one group of people simply because they are different than the majority.
 
Well don't blame that on me. I'm not the idiot who came up with the idea of Federally supported marriages. I agree that current the government has something to do with marriage- my point is that it shouldn't and as long as it does we're going to have this issue with gay marriage. Permitting homosexual to marry is inextricably tied up with the issue of should the government be involved in marriage, and answering the second question can be enormously helpful for answering the first. So yes, I agree with you: I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm saying it shouldn't.

I think I understand what you're getting at, tell me if this is correct.

In an ideal world, the government would provide "civil unions" to everyone... straight, gay, or otherwise. Same benefits for everyone.

Then, separately... people could go to a church or other institution and get their "marriage".

Something like that?

If so... I agree. But we don't live in that ideal world. In this world, government offers marriage as a fundamental right to some people and under the constitution they have to extend those rights to all people unless they can provide a good reason why the government shouldn't.
 
I think I understand what you're getting at, tell me if this is correct.

In an ideal world, the government would provide "civil unions" to everyone... straight, gay, or otherwise. Same benefits for everyone.

Then, separately... people could go to a church or other institution and get their "marriage".

Something like that?

If so... I agree. But we don't live in that ideal world. In this world, government offers marriage as a fundamental right to some people and under the constitution they have to extend those rights to all people unless they can provide a good reason why the government shouldn't.

You're kind of correct- the government just doesn't provide unions to anyone. Marriage is entirely non-political. But in the meantime, I agree that as long as the government plays any part in marriage, they need to provide it equally to everyone regardless of circumstance as long as they are mutually consenting legal adults.
 
"Hopefully those reading this thread will see who is bringing facts to support their arguments and who is making the 'wild allegations'." - SlackMaster

I suspect if you could support your argument you would.

That you don't is telling.

You have yet to support your argument. Why expect it of others.
 
You're kind of correct- the government just doesn't provide unions to anyone. Marriage is entirely non-political. But in the meantime, I agree that as long as the government plays any part in marriage, they need to provide it equally to everyone regardless of circumstance as long as they are mutually consenting legal adults.

OK everybody....group hug!!

:2grouphug
 
"You're being, at best, disingenuous, and at worst, willfully ignorant." - Aderleth

By all means, do tell where it states that homosexual marriage is a "fundamental right" and is "protected by the Constitution".

Slackmaster already pointed you towards the legal precedent, but since you're ignoring that, I'll reiterate in more detail. Remember, to begin with, that we're dealing with a Constitutional principle, so the controlling question is whether or not legal precedent supports the contention at issue.

1) Under several rulings by the supreme court, marriage is a fundamental right under the substantive due process provision in the fourteenth amendment of the US Constitution, and applicable to the federal government by means of the Due Process clause of the Fifth amendment, according to the doctrine of Incorporation (if you have no idea what I'm talking about, either google it, or ask me). The reason this is a due process issue is that, under the concept of substantive due process, one cannot be deprived of liberty without due process of law. Marriage is a fundamental "liberty" or "right," under that concept. To quote Skinner v. State of Oklahoma, "Marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man, fundamental to our very existence...."

2) Infringement of that right is a violation of the Constitution. Infringement can arise in any number of contexts. Perhaps the most seminal example, and the one arguably most relevant in this case, is Loving v Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), in which SCOTUS overturned Virginia's anti-miscegenation law as unconstitutional on both equal protection and substantive due process grounds. From Loving, "[t]he freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

3) Now, why would this apply to gay marriage? Well, first, you'll notice that neither of the cases I've mentioned have described the fundamental right to marry as the right to marry a person of the opposite sex. So it's not yet clear how the precedent would be applied on the issue of gay marriage. Obviously, it depends a little on how you frame the issue. You, for instance, might want to argue that the fundamental right to marry impliedly means the fundamental right to marry a person of the opposite sex. A similar line of reasoning was used by the defense in Loving (defining marriage as the right to marry the person of your choice of your own race), and dismissed by SCOTUS in that same case. As that court observed "To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive to the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law." So, by analogy, it seems that a restriction on the right to marry (still NOT defined by any Constitutional authority I'm aware of as the right to marry a person of the opposite sex) that violates fundamental principles of equality, has the effect of depriving citizens of due process of law. See where I'm going with this?

Let's look at one of the most recent cases on the issue:

4) In Perry v Schwarzenegger, Judge Walker of the Ninth Circuit (the highest federal court yet to hear this issue), analyzed whether or not California's Proposition 8 violated the Federal Constitution on Due Process and Equal protection grounds. He concluded that it did violate both provisions of the Constitution. He based his reasoning in part on the analysis I discussed regarding Loving, in part on a case called Griswald v Connecticut, a case overturning bans on contraceptives as a violation of another fundamental right - the right to privacy, and in part on Lawrence v Texas, which overturned Texas' sodomy ban on fundamental rights grounds. Walker concluded that Proposition 8 violated the 14th amendment on both equal protection and due process grounds. To quote Judge Walker's opinion, "[r]ace and gender restrictions shaped marriage during eras of race and gender inequality, but such restrictions were never part of the historical core institution of marriage," Remember, again, that the due process issue is whether or not marriage (including gay marriage, in this case) is a fundamental right. Walker held that gay marriage is a fundamental right.

That, in a nutshell, is the legal framework of this issue. There are many, many more details. I'm going to agree with Slackmaster and suggest that you do some serious research before you pretend to know whereof you speak.
 
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Slackmaster already pointed you towards the legal precedent, but since you're ignoring that, I'll reiterate in more detail. Remember, to begin with, that we're dealing with a Constitutional principle, so the controlling question is whether or not legal precedent supports the contention at issue.

1) Under several rulings by the supreme court, marriage is a fundamental right under the substantive due process provision in the fourteenth amendment of the US Constitution, and applicable to the federal government by means of the Due Process clause of the Fifth amendment, according to the doctrine of Incorporation (if you have no idea what I'm talking about, either google it, or ask me). The reason this is a due process issue is that, under the concept of substantive due process, one cannot be deprived of liberty without due process of law. Marriage is a fundamental "liberty" or "right," under that concept. To quote Skinner v. State of Oklahoma, "Marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man, fundamental to our very existence...."

2) Infringement of that right is a violation of the Constitution. Infringement can arise in any number of contexts. Perhaps the most seminal example, and the one arguably most relevant in this case, is Loving v Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967), in which SCOTUS overturned Virginia's anti-miscegenation law as unconstitutional on both equal protection and substantive due process grounds. From Loving, "[t]he freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

3) Now, why would this apply to gay marriage? Well, first, you'll notice that neither of the cases I've mentioned have described the fundamental right to marry as the right to marry a person of the opposite sex. So it's not yet clear how the precedent would be applied on the issue of gay marriage. Obviously, it depends a little on how you frame the issue. You, for instance, might want to argue that the fundamental right to marry impliedly means the fundamental right to marry a person of the opposite sex. A similar line of reasoning was used by the defense in Loving (defining marriage as the right to marry the person of your choice of your own race), and dismissed by SCOTUS in that same case. As that court observed "To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive to the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law." So, by analogy, it seems that a restriction on the right to marry (still NOT defined by any Constitutional authority I'm aware of as the right to marry a person of the opposite sex) that violates fundamental principles of equality, has the effect of depriving citizens of due process of law. See where I'm going with this?

Let's look at one of the most recent cases on the issue:

4) In Perry v Schwarzenegger, Judge Walker of the Ninth Circuit (the highest federal court yet to hear this issue), analyzed whether or not California's Proposition 8 violated the Federal Constitution on Due Process and Equal protection grounds. He concluded that it did violate both provisions of the Constitution. He based his reasoning in part on the analysis I discussed regarding Loving, in part on a case called Griswald v Connecticut, a case overturning bans on contraceptives as a violation of another fundamental right - the right to privacy, and in part on Lawrence v Texas, which overturned Texas' sodomy ban on fundamental rights grounds. Walker concluded that Proposition 8 violated the 14th amendment on both equal protection and due process grounds. To quote Judge Walker's opinion, "[r]ace and gender restrictions shaped marriage during eras of race and gender inequality, but such restrictions were never part of the historical core institution of marriage," Remember, again, that the due process issue is whether or not marriage (including gay marriage, in this case) is a fundamental right. Walker held that gay marriage is a fundamental right.

That, in a nutshell, is the legal framework of this issue. There are many, many more details. I'm going to agree with Slackmaster and suggest that you do some serious research before you pretend to know whereof you speak.

Geez Aderleth... what's with all these "wild allegations"?!?!
 
“Slackmaster already pointed you towards the legal precedent, but since you're ignoring that, I'll reiterate in more detail. Remember, to begin with, that we're dealing with a Constitutional principle, so the controlling question is whether or not legal precedent supports the contention at issue.” - Aderleth

No. The statement from the original post was “you can't vote on constitutional rights”.

I simply pointed out that homosexual marriage is not a constitutional right.

Never has been.

“1) Under several rulings by the supreme court, marriage is a fundamental right…” - Aderleth

Supreme Court rulings on marriage have never considered homosexuality.

“2) …Perhaps the most seminal example, and the one arguably most relevant in this case, is Loving v Virginia..." - Aderleth

Which only considered race…not homosexuality and not the same thing.

“4) In Perry v Schwarzenegger, Judge Walker of the Ninth Circuit (the highest federal court yet to hear this issue)…” - Aderleth

And the most overturned court in the country.

“To quote Judge Walker's opinion, "[r]ace and gender restrictions shaped marriage during eras of race and gender inequality, but such restrictions were never part of the historical core institution of marriage," - Aderleth

Now that’s true. Marriage is and has always been an institution formalizing a life-long commitment between men and women regardless of race or cultural biases between the sexes.

What this has to do with homosexual marriage is anybody’s guess.
 
"Geez Aderleth... what's with all these "wild allegations"?!?!" - SlackMaster

Still nuthin', huh?
 
“Slackmaster already pointed you towards the legal precedent, but since you're ignoring that, I'll reiterate in more detail. Remember, to begin with, that we're dealing with a Constitutional principle, so the controlling question is whether or not legal precedent supports the contention at issue.” - Aderleth

No. The statement from the original post was “you can't vote on constitutional rights”.

I simply pointed out that homosexual marriage is not a constitutional right.

Never has been.

“1) Under several rulings by the supreme court, marriage is a fundamental right…” - Aderleth

Supreme Court rulings on marriage have never considered homosexuality.

“2) …Perhaps the most seminal example, and the one arguably most relevant in this case, is Loving v Virginia..." - Aderleth

Which only considered race…not homosexuality and not the same thing.

“4) In Perry v Schwarzenegger, Judge Walker of the Ninth Circuit (the highest federal court yet to hear this issue)…” - Aderleth

And the most overturned court in the country.

“To quote Judge Walker's opinion, "[r]ace and gender restrictions shaped marriage during eras of race and gender inequality, but such restrictions were never part of the historical core institution of marriage," - Aderleth

Now that’s true. Marriage is and has always been an institution formalizing a life-long commitment between men and women regardless of race or cultural biases between the sexes.

What this has to do with homosexual marriage is anybody’s guess.

Ah well... it was a good effort Aderleth.

You can lead a horse to water... :shrug:
 
“1) Under several rulings by the supreme court, marriage is a fundamental right…” - Aderleth

Supreme Court rulings on marriage have never considered homosexuality.

Never said they did. Which is why I pointed you towards the highest court to rule on that issue.

“2) …Perhaps the most seminal example, and the one arguably most relevant in this case, is Loving v Virginia..." - Aderleth

Which only considered race…not homosexuality and not the same thing.

Never said it was. If you go back and look, you'll notice that I'm pointing out that the constitutional reasoning is at least analogous, if not essentially identical.

“4) In Perry v Schwarzenegger, Judge Walker of the Ninth Circuit (the highest federal court yet to hear this issue)…” - Aderleth

And the most overturned court in the country.

Has Walker's ruling on this issue been overturned? No it has not.

“To quote Judge Walker's opinion, "[r]ace and gender restrictions shaped marriage during eras of race and gender inequality, but such restrictions were never part of the historical core institution of marriage," - Aderleth

Now that’s true. Marriage is and has always been an institution formalizing a life-long commitment between men and women regardless of race or cultural biases between the sexes.

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You may want to re-read the thing you quoted, because your comment contradicts what you quoted. Better yet, read the quote in context, because you've obviously missed the point.
 
“Never said they did.” - Aderleth

So you agree!

Excellent! Now we won’t have to waste any additional time talking about what the Supreme Court hasn’t done.

“Never said it was. If you go back and look, you'll notice that I'm pointing out that the constitutional reasoning is at least analogous, if not essentially identical.” - Aderleth

Odd.

First you agree that race and homosexuality are not the same thing and then try to make the case that they are identical in reasoning.

Well, let me say it again to clear it up for you…race and homosexuality are not the same thing.

“Has Walker's ruling on this issue been overturned? No it has not.” - Aderleth

Does everybody agree that it will eventually be appealed to the Supreme court? Yes they do (and if you’ve been paying attention then I suspect you do, as well).

“You may want to re-read the thing you quoted, because your comment contradicts what you quoted. Better yet, read the quote in context, because you've obviously missed the point.” - Aderleth

I disagree but go ahead and straighten me out.
 
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