Another Taxpayer Funded Solar Energy Company Goes Belly Up

[LowDown]

Abengoa, the Spanish solar energy company, declared bankruptcy. The $2.5 billion Obama gave them to build plants in the US probably will never be recovered. Hillary Clinton was right in the middle of this action and so was Goldman Sachs.

Spain went on a program of solar energy development and increased green energy to 53% of electrical production in that country. But the Spanish government made a U turn, deciding that subsidies for solar energy were too expensive and began to cut them back. The price for electricity for ordinary consumers was already one of the highest in Europe. As a result Abengoa lost the interest of potential investors and had to declare bankruptcy last year.

Abengoa unit files for U.S. bankruptcy with up to $10 billion in debt | Reuters

Spain's Abengoa Files for Chapter 15 Bankruptcy in U.S. - WSJ

I suspect that investors will have little interest in green power going forward knowing that it's dependent on government largess and that the rug could be pulled out any time the government changes.

 

[PoS]

At this point, solar energy is too inefficient to be considered as a replacement for existing power grids. Even that new battery that Tesla is producing is still too expensive and won't give a satisfactory return on costs. Solar energy needs to be developed further and we are decades away. I'm personally on the side for more nuclear energy.

 

[LaMidRighter]

At this point, solar energy is too inefficient to be considered as a replacement for existing power grids. Even that new battery that Tesla is producing is still too expensive and won't give a satisfactory return on costs. Solar energy needs to be developed further and we are decades away. I'm personally on the side for more nuclear energy.

I firmly believe we should pursue every avenue of energy production but not at taxpayer expense. The most efficient and cost effective sources should hold the lion's share of production with the rest filling in gaps. Solar has it's place but not on the main stage, as you have stated, too inefficient.

 

[MickeyW]

At this point, solar energy is too inefficient to be considered as a replacement for existing power grids. Even that new battery that Tesla is producing is still too expensive and won't give a satisfactory return on costs. Solar energy needs to be developed further and we are decades away. I'm personally on the side for more nuclear energy.

Ditto.

I firmly believe we should pursue every avenue of energy production but not at taxpayer expense. The most efficient and cost effective sources should hold the lion's share of production with the rest filling in gaps. Solar has it's place but not on the main stage, as you have stated, too inefficient.

Agreed.

 

[MickeyW]

At this point, solar energy is too inefficient to be considered as a replacement for existing power grids. Even that new battery that Tesla is producing is still too expensive and won't give a satisfactory return on costs. Solar energy needs to be developed further and we are decades away. I'm personally on the side for more nuclear energy.

Oil, hydro and coal....rule...

 

[PeteEU]

Abengoa, the Spanish solar energy company, declared bankruptcy. The $2.5 billion Obama gave them to build plants in the US probably will never be recovered. Hillary Clinton was right in the middle of this action and so was Goldman Sachs.

Spain went on a program of solar energy development and increased green energy to 53% of electrical production in that country. But the Spanish government made a U turn, deciding that subsidies for solar energy were too expensive and began to cut them back. The price for electricity for ordinary consumers was already one of the highest in Europe. As a result Abengoa lost the interest of potential investors and had to declare bankruptcy last year.

Abengoa unit files for U.S. bankruptcy with up to $10 billion in debt | Reuters

Spain's Abengoa Files for Chapter 15 Bankruptcy in U.S. - WSJ

I suspect that investors will have little interest in green power going forward knowing that it's dependent on government largess and that the rug could be pulled out any time the government changes.

Hmm some factual issues here.

The government in Spain has not done a U-turn. They have stopped some popular programs for consumers because they were costing the government VAT money, but prioritizing renewable energy is still very much going on.

Also the electricity prices in Spain are the 4th highest before taxes in the EU... behind Ireland, Cyrpus and the UK. With taxes Spain is again 4th highest behind Denmark, Germany and Ireland.

But that has more to do with lack of competition. It is not long ago that there was only one electricity company in geographical areas and it is only with in the last 5 or so years that the market has been opened up and in typical Spanish style that opening up is slow and problematic. In theory you can choose who ever your supplier is and it should be easy. Problem is as always, that it is the industry themselves that have to point out the possibility of doing so and well.. lets just say that most people dont switch despite being able to save money. Then there are also hidden taxes involved in switching.... if you switch you risk having your electrical system audited which could mean forced rewiring or in my case being forced to dig down my supply line from the grid... that is almost 800 meters of electrical wire I need to dig down in rock. Now way I am doing that unless forced.

 

[longview]

Abengoa, the Spanish solar energy company, declared bankruptcy. The $2.5 billion Obama gave them to build plants in the US probably will never be recovered. Hillary Clinton was right in the middle of this action and so was Goldman Sachs.

Spain went on a program of solar energy development and increased green energy to 53% of electrical production in that country. But the Spanish government made a U turn, deciding that subsidies for solar energy were too expensive and began to cut them back. The price for electricity for ordinary consumers was already one of the highest in Europe. As a result Abengoa lost the interest of potential investors and had to declare bankruptcy last year.

Abengoa unit files for U.S. bankruptcy with up to $10 billion in debt | Reuters

Spain's Abengoa Files for Chapter 15 Bankruptcy in U.S. - WSJ

I suspect that investors will have little interest in green power going forward knowing that it's dependent on government largess and that the rug could be pulled out any time the government changes.

I think with a few rule changes, photo-voltaic solar could be marketed effectively in the US.
Spain hit some pitfalls, because they made solar too good for the consumer, and then got worried when the tax not paid on electricity not purchased went down.
In the US we need one rule everywhere in regards to grid attachment, a rule that will be livable from both the homeowner and the utilities.
Many of the current rules, are painful to the utility, while in other place the utilities do not even pay for surplus power at all.
Grid assist is almost a requirement to make solar compatible with modern energy use, we just need rules fair to all sides.
As to cost effectiveness, I think it helps to think of solar power like a bank CD.
If a system costs $10 K to put in, but produces 620 Kwh per month. at $.09 per kwh that is a direct savings of $55.80 per month, or $669 per year.
This is like a 6.6% rate of return. Add in another savings of $55 per year of taxes not paid, and the rate of return moves up to 7.24%.
Solar Sky 4.6 kW Grid‑Tied Solar System with SMA and 16x Suniva 285W Panels - Wholesale Solar
Now this is before any tax credits, throw in the 30 % federal tax credit, and the rate of return goes over 10%.

 

[LowDown]

Hmm some factual issues here.

The government in Spain has not done a U-turn. They have stopped some popular programs for consumers because they were costing the government VAT money, but prioritizing renewable energy is still very much going on.

Did the Spanish government cut back on subsidies for solar energy? Yes or no.

Also the electricity prices in Spain are the 4th highest before taxes in the EU... behind Ireland, Cyrpus and the UK. With taxes Spain is again 4th highest behind Denmark, Germany and Ireland.

Cost for electricity in Spain is among the highest, then.

But that has more to do with lack of competition. It is not long ago that there was only one electricity company in geographical areas and it is only with in the last 5 or so years that the market has been opened up and in typical Spanish style that opening up is slow and problematic. In theory you can choose who ever your supplier is and it should be easy. Problem is as always, that it is the industry themselves that have to point out the possibility of doing so and well.. lets just say that most people dont switch despite being able to save money. Then there are also hidden taxes involved in switching.... if you switch you risk having your electrical system audited which could mean forced rewiring or in my case being forced to dig down my supply line from the grid... that is almost 800 meters of electrical wire I need to dig down in rock. Now way I am doing that unless forced.

Solar energy is being subsidized by the government. Viability depends entirely on whether the subsidies are adequate to cover the cost or not. More competition would render Spanish companies even less viable. It's a portrait of a market that has been completely distorted by government machinations.

 

[longview]

Did the Spanish government cut back on subsidies for solar energy? Yes or no.



Cost for electricity in Spain is among the highest, then.



Solar energy is being subsidized by the government. Viability depends entirely on whether the subsidies are adequate to cover the cost or not. More competition would render Spanish companies even less viable. It's a portrait of a market that has been completely distorted by government machinations.

I think it is worth noting that Spain overextended itself to encourage solar power. the correction was just as overreaching.
https://euobserver.com/regions/130408
One quote got my attention,

"We could earn 44 euro cents per kilowatt hour from January to September but when the hour cap was on, we would earn absolutely nothing from the feed-in tariff", said Serra.

That would be like $.60 per Kwh when the euro was at 1.4! no wonder the utility could not afford to keep paying that rate.
The utility in order to pay the solar users for the surplus had to increase everyone's rates.
As more went to solar the problem just got worse.

 

[Manc Skipper]

What is it about American solar that makes it less competent than countries with a more northern exposure?

 

[longview]

What is it about American solar that makes it less competent than countries with a more northern exposure?

Mostly electricity rates, confusing local laws, and poor marketing.
For most users, grid attachment is the only option, yet the laws in place in many places have large disincentives for the utilities to allow more connections.

 

[PeteEU]

Did the Spanish government cut back on subsidies for solar energy? Yes or no.

No, they ran out.

Cost for electricity in Spain is among the highest, then.

Yes and there is an explanation for it.. not that it seems you care since you have an anti renewable energy stance it seems. Work in the carbon based industry maybe?

Solar energy is being subsidized by the government. Viability depends entirely on whether the subsidies are adequate to cover the cost or not. More competition would render Spanish companies even less viable. It's a portrait of a market that has been completely distorted by government machinations.

The carbon based industry is subsidized far far more... the amount of tax breaks and sweet heart deals that oil and coal industries get is mindboggling.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What is it about American solar that makes it less competent than countries with a more northern exposure?

Less subsidies than other places, and less tax of fossil fuel.

 

[MickeyW]

What is it about American solar that makes it less competent than countries with a more northern exposure?

It can't produce plastics....and that fact alone....is huge!!

By products of oil...................

A partial list of products made from petroleum

solar...just like GW, is smoke and mirrors!

 

[MickeyW]

No, they ran out.

Yes and there is an explanation for it.. not that it seems you care since you have an anti renewable energy stance it seems. Work in the carbon based industry maybe?

The carbon based industry is subsidized far far more... the amount of tax breaks and sweet heart deals that oil and coal industries get is mindboggling.

And that my friend, is what makes energy affordable to us all.

Solar on a mass scale, is nothing but a feel good, Tinker Bell dream! Just like Gun Free Zones and anti-profiling laws.

 

[PeteEU]

And that my friend, is what makes energy affordable to us all.

Yea.... if we of course ignore the massive debt the US federal system has built up to pay for this "affordable" energy...... basically if you add this, then solar energy is cheap as hell!

Solar on a mass scale, is nothing but a feel good, Tinker Bell dream! Just like Gun Free Zones and anti-profiling laws.

Solar energy is the future. It should be mandatory to be on every house and building in areas where there are 200+ sun days a year. If it was like this, then most consumers would be paying nothing and actually getting money back. Of course it would mean that many energy companies would go belly up but hey!

 

[MickeyW]

Yea.... if we of course ignore the massive debt the US federal system has built up to pay for this "affordable" energy...... basically if you add this, then solar energy is cheap as hell!



Solar energy is the future. It should be mandatory to be on every house and building in areas where there are 200+ sun days a year. If it was like this, then most consumers would be paying nothing and actually getting money back. Of course it would mean that many energy companies would go belly up but hey!

I fully agree.....for homes and businesses.....but it's not feasible for motor vehicle transportation, or for the myriad of products, derived from oil.

Would I like to see us stop using fossil fuels...and coal? Sure, but it isn't feasible, in the foreseeable future.

Wind and solar can work on a smaller scale and for small countries, but for the vast expanse of territory in the US, Canada, Asia, etc., and for the seas and the sky transport....oil works best. There is nothing else, that can come close.....except nuclear.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I fully agree.....for homes and businesses.....but it's not feasible for motor vehicle transportation, or for the myriad of products, derived from oil.

Would I like to see us stop using fossil fuels...and coal? Sure, but it isn't feasible, in the foreseeable future.

Wind and solar can work on a smaller scale and for small countries, but for the vast expanse of territory in the US, Canada, Asia, etc., and for the seas and the sky transport....oil works best. There is nothing else, that can come close.....except nuclear.

PV panels will become far more affordable than today. The problem is the best place to put them is generally far away from the cities than need power. I am not for subsidizing solar with tax dollars, but I'm OK with tax breaks and using tax dollars to build a national HVDC infrastructure to transport power.

I am against wind power, primarily because of the long term maintenance issues.