Another headache dealing with racism.

[LizardofOz]

No, Im suggesting Ive heard that story a thousand times..

However... I see what you did there.

w/e RACIST

 

[1069]

why are you asking questions like these in a place like this? why can you not look in places where the answers are likely to be? racism is part of our heritage.... always has been. it has not gone away simply because ,many of us would like it to go.
try this.

more white people commit crime than non-whites. this is not surprising... there simply ARE more white people and proportionally fewer poor whites than poor blacks- poverty is a leading cause of crime.

even so, propotionally fewer white people are arrested for crime than blacks. a smaller proportion of whites arrested are tried for the crimes they commit than blacks. a smaller propotion of whites tried are convicted than blacks. a smaller propotion of whites convicted serve prison time than blacks. whites sentenced to prison are sentenced to lesser terms than blacks.


source:

what would be YOUR conclusion?

as for the sophistication of culture in terms of technologies.... do you think the nice white folks of europe were 'lesser' than the dark skinned mediteraneans that conquered them? silly. Egypt is on the tip of africa and was the dominant culture of the west for centuries. The scientific, technological, artistic and political advances made by teh dark skinned people of india and arabia produced while the europeans were huddling in their medieval darkness stagger the mind.

even assuming that technology actually MEANS that one people is somehow 'better' than another (a preposterous idea) there are reasons that different peoples in different places 'develop' at different rates. Anthropologist Jared Diamond proposed a pretty good answer to most of your questions in a book titled 'Guns, Germs and Steel'. I recommend it.

PBS ran a series based on the show and featuring the good doctor - you can read a transcript here Guns Germs & Steel: The Show. Episode One | PBS

go to youtube/google video and you can find the show and watch it.


of course, you could just start drinking with a better class of people.

geo.

In my experience, blacks are not only more likely to be caught than whites who commit the same crimes (because police use racial profiling even if they don't admit it), but they're likely to be punished far more harshly than whites.
Even in the juvenile justice system. When it comes to white delinquents- like my son, who had a lot of run-ins with the law a few years ago- the emphasis seems to be on treatment and rehabilitation, counseling, giving them chance after chance to reform. Hell, I was begging them to lock my son up for awhile, and they just wouldn't. They made me feel like an asshole for wanting them to, but I just wanted him to be locked up safe somewhere for awhile, because he was out of control. So they put him on house arrest.
:roll:

If he were black, he probably would've not only spent most of his teenage years locked up in juvenile facilities, but would probably eventually have been tried as an adult, long before his 18th birthday, and sentenced to time in adult jail.
I think part of it is that the juvenile court system secretly believes that white delinquents are salvageable, while black ones are not.
I think another part is that the court system trusts white parents to provide a decent home and to responsibly oversee their delinquent children as they fulfill their obligations to the court (such as counseling, community service, house arrest, etc).
And it does not trust black parents to do so.
The court seems to feel that in cases where black teens are breaking the law, its better to get them out of their homes and neighborhoods and away from their parents, into the custody of the state, into some penal institution.

A lot of teenage boys of both races have run-ins with the law.
It seems to me that race is a determining factor in whether this is going to be a minor glitch in one's life, easily overcome, or the beginning of lifelong cycle of incarceration and crime.

 

[LizardofOz]

In my experience, blacks are not only more likely to be caught than whites who commit the same crimes (because police use racial profiling even if they don't admit it), but they're likely to be punished far more harshly than whites.
Even in the juvenile justice system. When it comes to white delinquents- like my son, who had a lot of run-ins with the law a few years ago- the emphasis seems to be on treatment and rehabilitation, counseling, giving them chance after chance to reform. Hell, I was begging them to lock my son up for awhile, and they just wouldn't. They made me feel like an asshole for wanting them to, but I just wanted him to be locked up safe somewhere for awhile, because he was out of control. So they put him on house arrest.
:roll:

If he were black, he probably would've not only spent most of his teenage years locked up in juvenile facilities, but would probably eventually have been tried as an adult, long before his 18th birthday, and sentenced to time in adult jail.
I think part of it is that the juvenile court system secretly believes that white delinquents are salvageable, while black ones are not.
I think another part is that the court system trusts white parents to provide a decent home and to responsibly oversee their delinquent children as they fulfill their obligations to the court (such as counseling, community service, house arrest, etc).
And it does not trust black parents to do so.
The court seems to feel that in cases where black teens are breaking the law, its better to get them out of their homes and neighborhoods and away from their parents, into the custody of the state, into some penal institution.

A lot of teenage boys of both races have run-ins with the law.
It seems to me that race is a determining factor in whether this is going to be a minor glitch in one's life, easily overcome, or the beginning of lifelong cycle of incarceration and crime.

Yep I can't think how many times I wipe my brow, say "Thank God I'm white!" and proceed to high five the people around me.

 

[1069]

Yep I can't think how many times I wipe my brow, say "Thank God I'm white!" and proceed to high five the people around me.

You seriously don't know how many times I've said that (to myself, so as not to offend others around me).

The fact that I've never- not once- been arrested, despite the fact that for half my life I broke laws left and right from the time my feet hit the ground in the morning until the time my head hit my pillow at night, is all the proof I need that white privilege exists.
I can't tell you how many times the police flat out caught me doing stuff that's against the law, and just looked the other way.

 

[LizardofOz]

You seriously don't know how many times I've said that (to myself, so as not to offend others around me).

The fact that I've never- not once- been arrested, despite the fact that for half my life I broke laws left and right from the time my feet hit the ground in the morning until the time my head hit my pillow at night, is all the proof I need that white privilege exists.
I can't tell you how many times the police flat out caught me doing stuff that's against the law, and just looked the other way.

Oh a lot of times if I'm getting "something" to smoke I won't get in a car with my black friends just to not draw attention to me. They also don't like getting in the car with me when we do stuff like that because instantly cops think they are the dealer or something. I also have a black friend that is straight arrow as can be but has a speeding problem. We got stopped by the cops going to a Reds game and it took like an hour to get going again. Another time before I got stopped by the cops and I got super pissed at the cop and bitched at him he let me go with a warning after 15 min.

 

[Caine]

In my experience, blacks are not only more likely to be caught than whites who commit the same crimes (because police use racial profiling even if they don't admit it), but they're likely to be punished far more harshly than whites.

Negative. Lets just use the stereotypes for example. Drug use in poor "black" areas, alot of "street" activity, in plain view of everyone. While white folks purchase their drugs inside of clubs, inside of homes, where police can't just barge in at any time.
Its all about the venue. If your doing more illegal things in areas that are publicly visible, then your going to get caught more often.

Even in the juvenile justice system. When it comes to white delinquents- like my son, who had a lot of run-ins with the law a few years ago- the emphasis seems to be on treatment and rehabilitation, counseling, giving them chance after chance to reform. Hell, I was begging them to lock my son up for awhile, and they just wouldn't. They made me feel like an asshole for wanting them to, but I just wanted him to be locked up safe somewhere for awhile, because he was out of control. So they put him on house arrest.
:roll:

Do you think they were trying to tell you something? Maybe that the problem could fix itself at home.

If he were black, he probably would've not only spent most of his teenage years locked up in juvenile facilities, but would probably eventually have been tried as an adult, long before his 18th birthday, and sentenced to time in adult jail.

Wrong again. The blacks that spend their time locked up at juvenile facilities are those who are violent juvenile offenders, or in some cases have been thoroughly adjudicated deliquent, like the 15 year old WHITE GIRL I had to transport a county away to a detention facility last week.

I think part of it is that the juvenile court system secretly believes that white delinquents are salvageable, while black ones are not.

It all depends upon how they view the parents. Apparently they must have seen something in you. Take compliment in that.

I think another part is that the court system trusts white parents to provide a decent home and to responsibly oversee their delinquent children as they fulfill their obligations to the court (such as counseling, community service, house arrest, etc).
And it does not trust black parents to do so.

In many of these cases, INDIVIDUAL cases, this is the truth. Not a blanket statement about blacks, but there are many black parents in poor inner city ****holes that could give a **** less about their job as a parent. Dysfunctional drug addicts as parents don't exactly work out.

The court seems to feel that in cases where black teens are breaking the law, its better to get them out of their homes and neighborhoods and away from their parents, into the custody of the state, into some penal institution.

Yes, because the laws the are breaking in many of these cases are laws of extreme violence, gang crimes and such (some of the most violent crimes in gangs are comitted by those under 18, because they take advantage of the weak juvenile justice system). So getting them away from their neighborhoods flooded with gangs, away from their parents who didn't do enough and sometimes even encouraged the kid to join the gang, might help steer them to a better place... At least that is the logic behind it.

A lot of teenage boys of both races have run-ins with the law.
It seems to me that race is a determining factor in whether this is going to be a minor glitch in one's life, easily overcome, or the beginning of lifelong cycle of incarceration and crime.

Nothing to do with anything. Its all about how you are raised, how your parents react to these situations/what they do in response, and a kid's general attitude on life.

 

[LizardofOz]

Caine so are you suggesting that the justice system has always been just as fair to blacks as it has to whites? Que?

 

[Mason66]

If you actually hung out with black people, you could claim this tired old regurgitated story about the black guy getting stopped driving a nice car in the south because some hick hillbilly thought he stole it like everyone else always does.

Does this story not get old and played out boring to anyone?

I am surprised you did not answer the other poster that said that even though whites commit more crime, blacks are arrested and convicted more than whites.

That suggests institutional racism on the part of police officers.

I took it to say a police officer would not arrest a white person commiting a crime but would arrest a black person.

That is obviously not true but some people try to say that as a way of excusing blacks from choosing crime instead of actual work.

 

[VanceMack]

Sigh. Ok so I drank some vodka tonight, and was talking with my two roomies, from Mississippi. And of course somehow race got brought up. I think I may have posted something similar to this before so please forgive me.
If any of their things are true?
Why do blacks make up most of the prison system?
Why do blacks not really have any inventions?
Why were we more advanced than them at that age and even this one?
Why can't they seem to rise above their poverty like we can?

I know all of the above sound very racist, but these are things they asked me and I struggled with an answer.

1) Bad environments, no parents, possibly racism, longer/harder sentences. (is what I said.)
2) Not sure about # 2, possibly patent laws and no way to educate themselves.
3) Not even sure how to address this.
4) Not any evidence they can't I guess.

Is it wrong to say Southerners are racist when it seems a lot of racist people I meet tend to be or come from the South? I know not all are, but it seems a lot are. Is it fair to say the South has far more racist than any other area of the country? Why does this make people mad?

I am from CA and FL. I don't give a **** if someone says there are a lot of dumb liberals or homosexuals in San Francisco, or that there are a bunch of old terrible drivers in FL.

The people in the South are still stuck up on this NORTH SOUTH CRAP. They are like well you are from the North (CA) and I'm like... I don't give a **** about my state. I am an American. I am not a Californian, or Floridian, or Mississippian... Who cares it's about your country, not your damn state.

3 points...

1-Im pretty sure the first rule of deep philosophical thought and discussion is DO NOT apply copious amounts of Vodka
2-There are and always havebeen a lot of people invested in keeping the flames of racism burning. WHile they profit from the hatred, those they target are more likely to remain stuck in the hot coals
3-The further we get from the era of slavery the more horrible and tragic it gets. Now dont get me wrong...slavery WAS tragic...and the british commonwealth courts should have never allowed Anthony Johnson to have the first actual non-indentured servant on the continent. But...we have gone from a tragic time where yes...the earliest citizens here followed the traditions of every other society including the Europeans, Romans, Africans, Native Indians, etc and practiced slavery, to...OMG...Americans were evil...they started slavery and racism!!!

Most of us have no ancestors that were in any way shape or form involved in slavery. Most of us are repulsed that some 150 years after its abolition we are still discussing. Most of us have our own burdens and day to day crosses to bear and are just tired of the whole ****ing thing.

 

[LizardofOz]

That is obviously not true but some people try to say that as a way of excusing blacks from choosing crime instead of actual work.

My friend (the one I was "lying" about going through MS in his BMW) has had to work 2x hard to get where he is at his company than any of his white peers. He works for a company called RIM that makes phones. I don't think black people that turn to crime use that as an excuse over making a decent living, just desperate times come to desperate measures. Also pretty sure when a police officer refers to my friend as "boy" instead of "sir" that is definitely going to have to go into the racism hat.

 

[Mason66]

My friend (the one I was "lying" about going through MS in his BMW) has had to work 2x hard to get where he is at his company than any of his white peers. He works for a company called RIM that makes phones. I don't think black people that turn to crime use that as an excuse over making a decent living, just desperate times come to desperate measures. Also pretty sure when a police officer refers to my friend as "boy" instead of "sir" that is definitely going to have to go into the racism hat.

So would you turn to crime if things got tough or would you turn to your family and get through it?

Generally speaking there is still a prevailing view in the black community that they are owed whatever they want, so commiting crime against whites or even their people is OK. How does somebody become a drug dealer. Keep in mind Drug Dealer = Child Killer.

Would you ever sell drugs because you couldn't find a job?

 

[LizardofOz]

So would you turn to crime if things got tough or would you turn to your family and get through it?

Generally speaking there is still a prevailing view in the black community that they are owed whatever they want, so commiting crime against whites or even their people is OK. How does somebody become a drug dealer. Keep in mind Drug Dealer = Child Killer.

Would you ever sell drugs because you couldn't find a job?

ha I actually laughed for reals when I read your reply. Most crime committed by blacks is black on black crime. Also how is selling some pot or pills to somebody killing kids? And yes, if it comes down to it I will do anything to get by as is the nature of man.

 

[Caine]

Caine so are you suggesting that the justice system has always been just as fair to blacks as it has to whites? Que?

HAS BEEN no.

IS NOW yes.

What it has been is irrelevant to me.

 

[Geo Patric]

Drug use in poor "black" areas, alot of "street" activity, in plain view of everyone. While white folks purchase their drugs inside of clubs, inside of homes, where police can't just barge in at any time.
Its all about the venue. If your doing more illegal things in areas that are publicly visible, then your going to get caught more often.

that is the stupidest rationalization i have heard in quite some time.

Wrong again. The blacks are violent juvenile offenders, or in some cases have been thoroughly adjudicated deliquent, like the 15 year old WHITE GIRL I had to transport a county away to a detention facility last week.

anecdotes are always welcome, but they establish nothing much at all.

In many of these cases, INDIVIDUAL cases, this is the truth. Not a blanket statement about blacks, but there are many black parents in poor inner city ****holes that could give a **** less about their job as a parent. Dysfunctional drug addicts as parents don't exactly work out.

fortunately, there are no white drunks or drug addicts.... that WHITE GIRL in juvy.... just a mistake....fortunately, all white folks are loving tender parents and their kids law abiding homebodies.

you like simplification. lemme make it real simple.

all of the above comments regarding black folks may be more generally applied to poor folk of ANY color. so... there are (proportionally) more poor black folk than poor white folk.

now, this is either a result of a racist culture or it is because black folks prefer poverty or are simply not willing to do what is necessary to avoid poverty.

which would you think the better probalility.

geo.

 

[LizardofOz]

HAS BEEN no.

IS NOW yes.

What it has been is irrelevant to me.

What has changed and when did it change? I will agree things are getting better but, can you elaborate?

 

[LizardofOz]

Also sorry to double post but some recent examples (although the cops were properly disciplined)

GA Cops Repeatedly Taser and Pepper Spray 57 Year Old School Teacher Who Called for Help | Video Cafe

Dallas police chief apologizes for conduct of officer who drew gun on NFL player outside hospital | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Latest News

 

[Caine]

I am surprised you did not answer the other poster that said that even though whites commit more crime, blacks are arrested and convicted more than whites.

That suggests institutional racism on the part of police officers.

I took it to say a police officer would not arrest a white person commiting a crime but would arrest a black person.

That is obviously not true but some people try to say that as a way of excusing blacks from choosing crime instead of actual work.

Ignorant people are going to think what they want to.

I can't convince people of how policing works, they should probably ask to do a ride along with thier local police department and find out for themselves.

There are thousands of different factors that lead to why blacks get arrested more often than whites.
It has little to do with "the cops are racists pigs maaaaaaaan"

One thing I wonder is this... why is it that the police always get blamed for the racism?
When I respond to a suspicious person call about " a black man walking down the street" late at night... Im not doing it because I wanted to go harrass a black man who probably lives in the neighborhood taking a walk with his dog.... Im doing it because some racist ass person decided that a black man isn't allowed to walk down the street in that neighborhood without the police checking him out.
90% of the time, this is the case. But the police are the citizens scapegoats so they can go about thinking they aren't racist and its all the fault of the police.

"Minority in my Neighborhood" calls (as we call them) have got to stop.

 

[LizardofOz]

So your a cop?

 

[Caine]

which would you think the better probalility.

geo.

LOL... You tell me anecdotes (REAL LIFE EXAMPLES) aren't worth anything....

Then you suggest that we GUESS based upon your own self established PROBABILITY of what the problem is.

Anyone else see a problem here?

Yes, I do bring anecdotal stories, because with all these STATISTICS people like to bring up, there is something missing in all that..... behind every single number in a STATISTIC there is a REAL LIFE story, which is not documented, and not read by the individual throwing STATISTICS out there.

This is why people can take their statistics and shove them up their ass.

 

[Caine]

So your a cop?

Yes, forum noobie, im a cop.

 

[LizardofOz]

Ok then can you answer me why most the time you talk to or get stopped by a cop or whatever they are instantly acting like a dick? Im sure they aint bad guys in real life, but is that just something they get taught to do or what?

 

[1069]

What has changed and when did it change? I will agree things are getting better but, can you elaborate?

Well, as long as there are individuals- as in the original post- who "care more" if a white person is victimized than if a black person is (I believe he shared this appalling information because he was drunk and among friends; I believe that there are others who feel the same way, and do not share it), clearly things are still not going to be perfectly fair to minorities.
Institutional racism still exists; institutions are made up of people, and people still harbor racist feelings and assumptions, still engage in racist stereotyping.
I see it almost daily on this very forum, where- protected by anonymity- people feel free to let their true faces show in a way they never would in real life for fear of repercussions.

 

[Caine]

Also sorry to double post but some recent examples (although the cops were properly disciplined)

GA Cops Repeatedly Taser and Pepper Spray 57 Year Old School Teacher Who Called for Help | Video Cafe

Dallas police chief apologizes for conduct of officer who drew gun on NFL player outside hospital | News for Dallas, Texas | Dallas Morning News | Latest News

You know, you can throw 10's of examples out there of idiots being idiots regardless of their job.

I can throw millions of them out there, they are called prisoners convicted of felony crimes.......

 

[Caine]

Ok then can you answer me why most the time you talk to or get stopped by a cop or whatever they are instantly acting like a dick? Im sure they aint bad guys in real life, but is that just something they get taught to do or what?

I don't act like a dick until I get some attitude from a snot nose peice of **** who thinks he is too good to be caught doing something illegal.

80% of the time I finish a traffic stop, even when issuing a ticket, I get thanked by the person I just gave a ticket to, in a polite manner.

Maybe YOU are giving some sort of attitude and you don't even realize it.


Example: just the other night I stopped a guy for a red light violation. He busted right on red without stopping first. I stop him, ask for his license and registration and he immediately demands "WHY WAS i STOPPED?!?"
So, due to his attitude, I respond, "Sir, you could have at least tried to pretend that you were going to stop at that red light before turning" He then goes into how he stopped, blah blah. So I go back to my vehicle and run his license/etc. Now, when I stopped the guy, I had already made up my mind that barring any serious attitude or other problems I was going to give him a warning. But his attitude put me in "I have to write this guy now" level. But I really DIDN'T WANT to write him. So I stopped my camera tape, and turned it back on immediately (this is so I could access the video that had already been recorded). I then asked the man if he would step out of the vehicle and take a look at my video, if that would change his mind. He agreed. I replayed the video on my laptop for him to view, and he acknowledged that he did in fact blow through the stop light, and apologized.

Sometimes people are so wrapped up in what they were doing that they don't realize their mistakes, and then they compound the problem by acting like an insufferable or impatient prick towards the officers. THAT is why we respond by "acting like a dick".

 

[1069]

I don't act like a dick until I get some attitude from a snot nose peice of **** who thinks he is too good to be caught doing something illegal.

What if some other cop- not you- subconsciously had different expectations for how a white suspect should act and for how a black suspect should act, based on deeply ingrained racial stereotypes and/or past personal experiences?
And what if these assumptions, these different expectations, caused him to treat white suspects differently that black suspects, even if in fact their behavior was identical?
What if the cop perceived the white suspect's behavior as harmless natural defensiveness, while he perceived identical behavior from the black suspect to be threatening and potentially dangerous?
This would result in the cop feeling only mild annoyance with the white suspect, while possibly taking action to stifle identical behavior in the black suspect.
It would result in the cop treating the two suspects differently, on the basis of their skin color, and his past experiences, and his own assumptions about what skin color signified.

This is an example of systematic racism.
Systems and institutions are made up of individuals. Many individuals subconsciously harbor racism; some of them don't even realize it.