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Another federal judge isn't convinced that Bush can override Congress (1 Viewer)

aps

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Gerard E. Lynch, appointed by Bill Clinton, heard oral argument in an NSA case filed in his district. He completely frustrated the DOJ attorney when he asked whether Yankees fans threatened with being strip-searched before entering the stadium would have standing to sue. The DOJ attorney apparently threw up his hands and said, "I don't know" in an exasperated tone. LOL I would have loved to seen that oral argument!

Also, the judge discounted the argument that the AUMF granted the president the power to violate FISA. The judge's response to such an argument was, "I'm not too impressed by that one."

Judge Lynch went to Columbia undergrad and law school. He clerked for Justice William Brennan, and he has taught at Columbia School of Law. He ain't no dummy.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/06/washington/06nsa.html
 
When are the apologetics going to admit. Warrentless DOMESTIC wiretapping is illegal! FISA established that long ago, and that was during the cold war against a very much nuclear armed to the teeth regime.
 
jfuh said:
When are the apologetics going to admit. Warrentless DOMESTIC wiretapping is illegal! FISA established that long ago, and that was during the cold war against a very much nuclear armed to the teeth regime.


when the supreme court hears the case and rules that way. Until then, its unsettled.
 
TurtleDude said:
when the supreme court hears the case and rules that way. Until then, its unsettled.
Will you admit it then? Or will the judges be activists and you refuse the outcome?
 
jfuh said:
Will you admit it then? Or will the judges be activists and you refuse the outcome?

One can always disagree with a court's reasoning (ie Roe v wade) but if the supreme court rules that it is a violation then that is settled law at the time the ruling is issue until the law is changed or the decision is overruled
 
TurtleDude said:
One can always disagree with a court's reasoning (ie Roe v wade) but if the supreme court rules that it is a violation then that is settled law at the time the ruling is issue until the law is changed or the decision is overruled
I notice you've avoided answering.
 
jfuh said:
I notice you've avoided answering.


you are confused-if the supreme court rules that the actions violate the law then they violate the law.
 
TurtleDude said:
you are confused-if the supreme court rules that the actions violate the law then they violate the law.

I find it strange that you're not willing to take a position on it. What does your gut instinct tell you? It's that simple, Turtle.
 
jfuh said:
I notice you've avoided answering.

Honestly, jfuh, I think you're wasting your time.
 
aps said:
I find it strange that you're not willing to take a position on it. What does your gut instinct tell you? It's that simple, Turtle.

I think you are engaging in a straw windmill tilting exercise and it is my position that the law is unclear on this issue and the Supreme Court needs to decide it. The judge in Detroit is a clear partisan hack and I have no confidence that the decision was based on an honest review of the law given that there was no real hearing and no evidentiary inquiry.

I tend to think that the arguments (based on reality) are that the president probably has the power given the circumstances. I also note that since the Bush haters say he doesn't, that weighs in saying he does
 
TurtleDude said:
I think you are engaging in a straw windmill tilting exercise and it is my position that the law is unclear on this issue and the Supreme Court needs to decide it. The judge in Detroit is a clear partisan hack and I have no confidence that the decision was based on an honest review of the law given that there was no real hearing and no evidentiary inquiry.

I tend to think that the arguments (based on reality) are that the president probably has the power given the circumstances. I also note that since the Bush haters say he doesn't, that weighs in saying he does

*tells self that she will no longer ask TurtleDude anymore questions involving legal issues since he won't answer them except to insult the opposing party or the person who decides an issue with which he disagrees*

Thank you for your response. Have a nice day. :roll:
 
aps said:
*tells self that she will no longer ask TurtleDude anymore questions involving legal issues since he won't answer them except to insult the opposing party or the person who decides an issue with which he disagrees*

Thank you for your response. Have a nice day. :roll:

If you review the string of posts you will see that the insults have come from you and your fellow traveler, not me. I made it clear that the law is unsettled and I want to wait til there is a definitive answer. You twist what has been said because you don't like the answer and you want to engage in anklebiting.
 
aps said:
Honestly, jfuh, I think you're wasting your time.
It's funny how we can not get a definitive answer from someone who speaks so highly of law - practices law.
 
jfuh said:
It's funny how we can not get a definitive answer from someone who speaks so highly of law - practices law.

I totally agree, jfuh. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. I'm going to send you a PM on my thoughts.
 
jfuh said:
It's funny how we can not get a definitive answer from someone who speaks so highly of law - practices law.


I guess you have not figured out that there is no definitive answer at this point. You and APS can jerk away together and maybe she can tell you what law school she has a degree from but given we have people who have completely examined the issue on both sides I will stand by my assertions and let you two pretend you really are smarter
 
jfuh said:
When are the apologetics going to admit. Warrentless DOMESTIC wiretapping is illegal! FISA established that long ago, and that was during the cold war against a very much nuclear armed to the teeth regime.
Wrong.

If your local gangster has attracted the attention of the authorities and they have a warrant to tap his phone, and if you then call him to arrange a hit on a rival, that conversation can be used to prosecute you even though there was no warrant for a tap on your phone.

NSA needs no warrant to tap the phone of a terrorist suspect overseas. If you call that terrorist, or he calls you, that conversation should also be recorded and used to thwart whatever plans you are making.

Why exactly do you think NSA was created and funded by Congress, and what do you think their mission is, or should be?
 
Diogenes said:
Wrong.

If your local gangster has attracted the attention of the authorities and they have a warrant to tap his phone, and if you then call him to arrange a hit on a rival, that conversation can be used to prosecute you even though there was no warrant for a tap on your phone.

NSA needs no warrant to tap the phone of a terrorist suspect overseas. If you call that terrorist, or he calls you, that conversation should also be recorded and used to thwart whatever plans you are making.

Why exactly do you think NSA was created and funded by Congress, and what do you think their mission is, or should be?


sound points, accurate and concise Bravo!
 
There's a misconception that the 4th Amendment does, or ever did, require warrants.

It does not and did not ever.

A warrant may only be issued upon probable cause and a warrant is desirable.

A warrant is required in most ordinary circumstances.

But the 4th Amendment only requires that a search not be "unreasonable." A warrant is a certificate of reasonability, but a search can be reasonable without one.

The Supreme Court has identified at LEAST 50 exceptions to a warrant requirement, all having to do with the circumstances of the search. Judge Taylor pretty much ignored them all.
 
Harshaw said:
There's a misconception that the 4th Amendment does, or ever did, require warrants.

It does not and did not ever.

A warrant may only be issued upon probable cause and a warrant is desirable.

A warrant is required in most ordinary circumstances.

But the 4th Amendment only requires that a search not be "unreasonable." A warrant is a certificate of reasonability, but a search can be reasonable without one.

The Supreme Court has identified at LEAST 50 exceptions to a warrant requirement, all having to do with the circumstances of the search. Judge Taylor pretty much ignored them all.

excellent summation-a warrant is an indicia of reasonableness but no warrant does not necessarily establish the opposite
 
Harshaw said:
There's a misconception that the 4th Amendment does, or ever did, require warrants.

It does not and did not ever.

A warrant may only be issued upon probable cause and a warrant is desirable.

A warrant is required in most ordinary circumstances.

But the 4th Amendment only requires that a search not be "unreasonable." A warrant is a certificate of reasonability, but a search can be reasonable without one.

The Supreme Court has identified at LEAST 50 exceptions to a warrant requirement, all having to do with the circumstances of the search. Judge Taylor pretty much ignored them all.

Quite true. And isn't interesting how former NSA director Gen Haden was pilloried when he pointed this out in his press conference exchange with a reporter?
 
oldreliable67 said:
Quite true. And isn't interesting how former NSA director Gen Haden was pilloried when he pointed this out in his press conference exchange with a reporter?

People in the government should not go around pointing out ways around the constitution. Doing so creates an unecessary fear in the populace, which feeds the old "the government is corrupt and does whatever they want" stereo-fear.

Government officials should know better then to pull such a stunt. General Haden should've known enough to keep his pie hole shut.

;)
 
An excellent article, the most thoughtful and well reasoned I've read, is The New Juristocracy.
From the Founding right up until the still-quaking bombshell of Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, issued at the end of the Supreme Court's term in late June, the primary imperative of national government was to protect the security of the governed from hostile outsiders. The Framers, however, had an ingenious gloss on this venerable first principle. In the great American experiment in republican democracy, this power of self-preservation--what Justice Felix Frankfurter, in another era of grave peril, called "the most pervasive aspect of sovereignty"--would repose only in those political actors directly accountable to the people whose lives hung in the balance.

The arrangement made exquisite sense. On the one hand, if the public's representatives were insufficiently attentive to national security, those with the most at stake could vote them out of office. On the other hand, if public officials failed to give due deference to the civil rights that guarantee our freedom, Americans, lovers of liberty, could show them the door. The epicenter of this dynamic would be the President of the United States, the only public official (besides the Vice President) elected by, and accountable to, all of the people.

Judges? They would have no role in national security. They, after all, are politically unaccountable. This is neither to disparage them nor suggest they are irresponsible, much less unpatriotic. They are unaccountable to the people because they are accountable only to the law. And not some universal law. They are custodians of the people's laws, those governing the domestic body politic.

Those laws quite intentionally handcuff government for the sake of promoting freedom. They thus have no place in the international arena, a state of nature in which nations, insurgent militias, and, now, transnational terrorist networks all claim the right to use force. "The circumstances that endanger the safety of nations are infinite," Hamilton observed in "The Federalist" (No. 23). "For this reason no constitutional shackles can wisely be imposed on the power to which the care of it is committed."

In stark contrast, within the domestic realm, government would have a comparative monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Security would not be as pressing a concern. Within this fortress, judicial courts could guarantee Americans freedom from oppressive action by their government. They could preserve the rule of law indispensable for the American body politic to flourish. It was for those reasons--in abeyance of mortal danger--that the nation could afford to insulate them from popular passions, whims, and safety concerns.

However patently central it is to a good society, the judicial function remains largely irrelevant to the international order. For all the blather about our "international community," it is an ersatz community, lying beyond our laws and democratic choices. Unlike dreamy modern internationalists, the Framers well understood that broad swaths of this "community"--enemies of the United States--would always pose threats, some existential, to the body politic.

Such threats are not legal problems. They do not principally involve Americans being deprived of their legal entitlements by their government--the cases and controversies judicial power was designed to resolve. They are clashes between the American national community and the outside world. They are the stuff of political power--diplomacy, force, and all the intermediate measures wielded by the political branches. The judicial power has no place because American courts are part and parcel of the American national community; they do not exist outside or above it.

In our system, rising to external threats from alien forces with no claim on the protections of American law would be the domain of the political branches. In times of crisis and war, it would be uniquely the province of an energetic executive. All the immense might the United States could muster for its self-preservation would be concentrated in one set of hands, able to act swiftly and decisively to quell enemies endlessly variant in size, strength, and method of attack.

- (snip) -

In 2004, the budding juristocracy had first flexed its new wartime muscles with an unprecedented grant of American court access to alien enemy combatants (i.e., non-American terrorists) engaged in a barbaric war against Americans. Specifically, the Supreme Court held, in Rasul v. Bush, that America's enemies could use America's courts to file habeas corpus petitions challenging their detention by America's military, which had been sent into battle by America's president after a sweeping authorization overwhelmingly approved by America's legislature.

Americans, it should astonish no one to learn, were not in favor. They pressed their accountable representatives to act. Congress responded with last December's Detainee Treatment Act (DTA). It provided, in no uncertain terms, that "no court, justice or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the Department of Defense at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba."

- (snip) -

Thus with Hamdan, the unaccountable branch, the one the Framers excluded from life-and-death matters of the state, has entered the nation into the very suicidal treaty the people's elected officials sagely shunned. And what rights must be accorded under CA3 to savages seeking to supplant American democracy with a fundamentalist caliphate? Why, freedom from "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment," and "all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples." This is to say, capaciously promiscuous guarantees the parameters of which will eventually be determined not by those whose lives hang in the balance, but by federal judges.
 
Diogenes said:
Wrong.

If your local gangster has attracted the attention of the authorities and they have a warrant to tap his phone, and if you then call him to arrange a hit on a rival, that conversation can be used to prosecute you even though there was no warrant for a tap on your phone.

NSA needs no warrant to tap the phone of a terrorist suspect overseas. If you call that terrorist, or he calls you, that conversation should also be recorded and used to thwart whatever plans you are making.

Why exactly do you think NSA was created and funded by Congress, and what do you think their mission is, or should be?
The NSA is constitutionally barred from domestic wiretapping, or did you forget that?
FISA clearly stated the process to which the NSA needs to go through.
Also I believe two federal judges would be far more knowledgable about legal processes and law then you are.
As for the red-herring of a gangster, it's noteable how you understand the need first for a warrent - aka court approval.
 
TurtleDude said:
I guess you have not figured out that there is no definitive answer at this point. You and APS can jerk away together and maybe she can tell you what law school she has a degree from but given we have people who have completely examined the issue on both sides I will stand by my assertions and let you two pretend you really are smarter
Hey aps, td has a good idea here, perhaps we should go and jerk away? I'll go get the room.

Sure td, when you as a "lawyer" can present better arguments then simply where someone graduated from or something of relation to the topic, I'll take you more seriously. Right now all I see is partisan rhetoric and writing that shows of ignorance. Cut and run from the topic at hand.
 
Harshaw said:
There's a misconception that the 4th Amendment does, or ever did, require warrants.

It does not and did not ever.

A warrant may only be issued upon probable cause and a warrant is desirable.

A warrant is required in most ordinary circumstances.

But the 4th Amendment only requires that a search not be "unreasonable." A warrant is a certificate of reasonability, but a search can be reasonable without one.

The Supreme Court has identified at LEAST 50 exceptions to a warrant requirement, all having to do with the circumstances of the search. Judge Taylor pretty much ignored them all.
You will note that judge taylor is not the only judge to have ruled so.
Define for us please the definition of "ordinary circumstances".
 

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