• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Another attack on the fourth amendment

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
50,956
Reaction score
33,165
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The Government Can Use GPS to Track Your Moves



Government agents can sneak onto your property in the middle of the night, put a GPS device on the bottom of your car and keep track of everywhere you go. This doesn't violate your Fourth Amendment rights, because you do not have any reasonable expectation of privacy in your own driveway — and no reasonable expectation that the government isn't tracking your movements.

That is the bizarre — and scary — rule that now applies in California and eight other Western states. The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, which covers this vast jurisdiction, recently decided the government can monitor you in this way virtually anytime it wants — with no need for a search warrant.
Winston loves Big Brother, but I don't. This sort of thing is happening too much (well, once is too much)

What do you think?
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,504
Reaction score
50,051
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
thankfully, the Ninth Circus is THE most-reversed court in the nation. (by SCOTUS}.



Yes, I spelled 9th Circus most carefully...
 

Vader

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 24, 2005
Messages
8,260
Reaction score
1,064
Location
Whitewater, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
thankfully, the Ninth Circus is THE most-reversed court in the nation. (by SCOTUS}.

Yes, I spelled 9th Circus most carefully...
This is true ... the 9th Circus is well known for partisan politicing and judicial incompetence.
 

jamesrage

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Messages
34,340
Reaction score
16,230
Location
A place where common sense exists
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
thankfully, the Ninth Circus is THE most-reversed court in the nation. (by SCOTUS}.



Yes, I spelled 9th Circus most carefully...
You are correct. . That is the reason why the 9th circuit is called the left circuit or the ninth circus. One would think that they would be removed due to incompetence. If it was the supreme court that ruled this way then there would be something to worry about
 

TOJ

Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
4,512
Reaction score
639
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
So is there an expectation of privacy in one's driveway in the USA?

Also, does the USA Constitution prohibit local or state authorities tracking a person's movements?

Just because you don't like something does not make it unconstitutional. ;)

.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'll ask this just like I asked in the other thread.

Why does this concern you? Are you a member of an organized crime group? Are you a habitual felon that is going to go out and break into someone's home again and again?

What makes you think the government cares about where you are going?
What makes you think you are important enough for the government to "track"?
 

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
50,956
Reaction score
33,165
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I'll ask this just like I asked in the other thread.

Why does this concern you? Are you a member of an organized crime group? Are you a habitual felon that is going to go out and break into someone's home again and again?

What makes you think the government cares about where you are going?
What makes you think you are important enough for the government to "track"?
Ah, yes, once again it's the "if you dont have anything to hide, then what's the big deal? argument. It doesn't hold water, never did, and never will. I for one, don't want to live in a police state whether I intend to commit a crime or not.

If they can track anyone, they can track everyone. What's to stop them from tracking enemies of the administration? You, sir, attended a rally for the opposing party! For that, we are going to harrass you until you go to our reeducation camp. Got that, Winston?
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ah, yes, once again it's the "if you dont have anything to hide, then what's the big deal? argument. It doesn't hold water, never did, and never will. I for one, don't want to live in a police state whether I intend to commit a crime or not.

If they can track anyone, they can track everyone. What's to stop them from tracking enemies of the administration? You, sir, attended a rally for the opposing party! For that, we are going to harrass you until you go to our reeducation camp. Got that, Winston?

 

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
50,956
Reaction score
33,165
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I see. So, pointing out how the government is violating basic rights of the citizenry is paranoia now? OK, then, I'll just go back to watching American Idol, secure in the knowledge that my government would never become despotic. No, no, government never becomes dangerous to liberty. Only paranoid people would believe such a thing.

Right?
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I see. So, pointing out how the government is violating basic rights of the citizenry is paranoia now? OK, then, I'll just go back to watching American Idol, secure in the knowledge that my government would never become despotic. No, no, government never becomes dangerous to liberty. Only paranoid people would believe such a thing.

Right?
Right!!!!!!!!
 

Crunch

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
4,063
Reaction score
890
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
I'll ask this just like I asked in the other thread.

Why does this concern you? Are you a member of an organized crime group? Are you a habitual felon that is going to go out and break into someone's home again and again?

What makes you think the government cares about where you are going?
What makes you think you are important enough for the government to "track"?
So you wouldn't mind if the cops just walked into your home and searched without a warrant?

After all, you don't have anything to hide do you?
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
So you wouldn't mind if the cops just walked into your home and searched without a warrant?

After all, you don't have anything to hide do you?
Umm.. that is completely different.....
Watching where you are going using GPS is not entering your home and disrupting your regularly scheduled life.

Can you explain how these two are even comparable? They aren't.

They could, if they wanted to, accomplish the same goal without the GPS, as you have no right to privacy when out in public. So if you leave your house, they could follow you in a vehicle and observe where you go in this manner as well......

So much for your crappy comparison.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
74,505
Reaction score
42,583
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
I'll ask this just like I asked in the other thread.

Why does this concern you? Are you a member of an organized crime group? Are you a habitual felon that is going to go out and break into someone's home again and again?

What makes you think the government cares about where you are going?
What makes you think you are important enough for the government to "track"?
I think the "you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" argument is piss poor at best. I have no idea why they would care where I'm going. But if they do care, they need to have carefully prescibed steps on how to find out. One which should require a court, such as obtaining a warrant.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I think the "you aren't doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" argument is piss poor at best. I have no idea why they would care where I'm going. But if they do care, they need to have carefully prescibed steps on how to find out. One which should require a court, such as obtaining a warrant.
Or, you know, they could just wait for you to enter your vehicle and leave your driveway and follow you.
As you have no reasonable expectation to privacy when you are out in public.
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
74,505
Reaction score
42,583
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
Or, you know, they could just wait for you to enter your vehicle and leave your driveway and follow you.
As you have no reasonable expectation to privacy when you are out in public.
Oh, if they want to physically follow me; that's one thing. If they want to use a series of electronic devices and satellites to watch where I go; that's another.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Oh, if they want to physically follow me; that's one thing. If they want to use a series of electronic devices and satellites to watch where I go; that's another.
What is the difference?
 

Ikari

Moderator
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
74,505
Reaction score
42,583
Location
Colorado
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Left
What is the difference?
Electromagnetic spectrum being recorded. Heheh. But eyes are eyes. If you want to follow me and look where I'm going; fine. That means you must be there personally to watch and observe. But if you want to sit back and relax while having electronics do your work; that's another ball game. It's one thing to look, I can't really say cops have to run around all day with their eyes closed. However, you're then eliciting much higher tech to take the place of that personal observation; then it's no good. There's a limit to how many cops you can put out on the street and thus you have to reserve judgment for the cases which warrant the observation. There's not such limit on little devices you can attach to cars.

As I said, if you want to use a series of electronic devices and satellites to watch where I'm going; you're going to need a reason. One which can be defended in court, i.e. as is the case in obtaining a warrant.
 

justabubba

long standing member
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 22, 2005
Messages
49,802
Reaction score
31,604
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Umm.. that is completely different.....
Watching where you are going using GPS is not entering your home and disrupting your regularly scheduled life.

Can you explain how these two are even comparable? They aren't.

They could, if they wanted to, accomplish the same goal without the GPS, as you have no right to privacy when out in public. So if you leave your house, they could follow you in a vehicle and observe where you go in this manner as well......

So much for your crappy comparison.
if law enforcement has a legitimate need to know, then have them seek authority from an objective court, showing the reasonableness of their intent, and the anticipated application of their findings
in that way, we would expect no abuse of power by the peoples' government
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
if law enforcement has a legitimate need to know, then have them seek authority from an objective court, showing the reasonableness of their intent, and the anticipated application of their findings
in that way, we would expect no abuse of power by the peoples' government
And Ive already stated I agree with the requirement of a warrant.

Its people freaking out about being tracked in general that I have a problem with.

Oh, and people making compairsons that don't hold water.
 

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
45,603
Reaction score
22,539
Location
Everywhere and nowhere
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
So if you leave your house, they could follow you in a vehicle and observe where you go in this manner as well......
My first thought was that it was really no different from putting a tail on a person. Well, except for the fact that it is probably cheaper over the long run.

If it was an audio/video recording device or it was placed on the actual person, I would have a problem with it. But I really don't see anything wrong with this.
 

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
My first thought was that it was really no different from putting a tail on a person. Well, except for the fact that it is probably cheaper over the long run.

If it was an audio/video recording device or it was placed on the actual person, I would have a problem with it. But I really don't see anything wrong with this.
Neither do I really. In all honest I still think warrants are the best bet.
However, As long as any evidence gained through this can be supported with some sort of probable cause for attaching the device to the vehicle in the first place (similar to my warrantless blood taking after a DWI breath test refusal) then I don't see the problem.

However, alot of warrantless searches are based upon the premise that evidence WILL be lost in several hours process of obtaining a warrant. I don't see what would be lost in obtaining a warrant here.
 

Tucker Case

Matthew 16:3
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
Messages
45,603
Reaction score
22,539
Location
Everywhere and nowhere
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Neither do I really. In all honest I still think warrants are the best bet.
However, As long as any evidence gained through this can be supported with some sort of probable cause for attaching the device to the vehicle in the first place (similar to my warrantless blood taking after a DWI breath test refusal) then I don't see the problem.

However, alot of warrantless searches are based upon the premise that evidence WILL be lost in several hours process of obtaining a warrant. I don't see what would be lost in obtaining a warrant here.
I agree obtaining a warrant would make sense with these. But even without one, I don't see it as a violation of the 4th.
 
Last edited:

Caine

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
23,344
Reaction score
7,210
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
I agree obtaining a warrant would make sense with these. But even without one, I don't see it as a violation of the 4th.
Well, neither do I really.

It is neither a search nor a seizure.
 

Dittohead not!

master political analyst
DP Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
50,956
Reaction score
33,165
Location
The Golden State
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Umm.. that is completely different.....
Watching where you are going using GPS is not entering your home and disrupting your regularly scheduled life.
Is entering your home really all that much different from tresspassing on private property to com on to your driveway? I don't think so.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,504
Reaction score
50,051
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well, neither do I really.

It is neither a search nor a seizure.


We didn't have these when I was a cop, and we managed somehow.

I think we've gone quite far enough in electronic surveillance. Time to say "whoa". Enough already.

Half the crap this would be used for isn't even Constitutionally outlaw-able anyway. Illegal drugs, unregistered guns... bring an end to the New Prohibition and you wouldn't need this crap, you'd have surplus manpower to use on REAL crime.


This ends my Libertarian Moment for the week... :mrgreen:
 
Top Bottom