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Animal abortions (dogs, cats, etc)

Animal abortions

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Aunt Spiker

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Curious as to people's thoughts on abortions for dogs, cats and so on:

Do animals have the right to carry and birth their young?

How much say should an owner of a pet have in this issue?

Do all unborn animals have the right to life?

I did remember to make this poll multiple-choice! So choose as many as you see fit.
 
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spud_meister

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the only reason an animal should have an abortion is if its life is in danger, its not hard to get rid off baby animals legally, and you can often make a profit off it.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Please clarify "get rid of" . . . that could easily be twisted.
I know what you mean, though - and I disagree.

Animals that are just given away as pups/kittens are most likely to end up in an animal shelter/abandoned and eventually be put to sleep/killed by other means/abused.

I think it's rather humane to abort - as long as it's done early - and can be done while spaying at the same time.
 
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spud_meister

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i just don't see any point of aborting them, small animals like dogs and cats aren't pregnant for a long time, and you can give them away or sell them once they are weaned, which is only a few weeks, and i don't think they'd be in any more danger of being abused than animals obtained through any other means.
 

Tucker Case

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I should add that I wouldn't have a problem if the owner decided to skip the abortion and just put the animal down. I wouldn't do it myself, but it's not something I feel should be prevented.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Some facts about animals in shelters:
Dangers of 'puppy for free' ads
Animal Cruelty - Utah's "Pound Seizure" law sells animals into lab experimentation
End Pound-Seizure
Animal rescues and shelter Facts

About four million dogs enter shelters each year:

* 400,000 puppies from households that produce litters but do not place the pups in new homes.
* Strays, about 2.2 million
* Reclaimed by their owners [of those 2.2 million strays], about 600,000, (leaving 1.6 million strays available for adoption).
* Owner surrenders, About 1.8 million (300,000 for euthanasia and 1.5 million for adoption).

One million of the 3.1 million dogs available for adoption do get new homes, leaving 2.1 million additional dogs euthanized.

I have 10 dogs - over the years we've taken in 4 of them because they were stray, malnourished, and needed help.
I've had them all fixed, they're doing great, now, and I'm training them (housebreaking and basic commands)l. One was pregnant when we took her in - she had 8 pups, all of which we are also properly caring for (shots, etc) - and are being trained, doing great.

My goal: find homes for all of them.
Fact: that's HARD to do - even though I've fixed them all/have them up to date on shots/train them - it's HARD to find someone willing to take an animal in.

The economy is in the crapper, still, thousands of animals that were beloved pets have been given to shelters because people can't afford to feed them, anymore - and so trying to even give away animals when people can't take in another mouth to feed is beyond impossible right now.

Some people who have shown interest in taking them in are actually wanting 'purebred' animals - not 'stray-born' :shrug:
Others don't seem capable or interested in actually continuing their proper care and training - I've talked with one guy who honestly believed that "since you've trained them I don't have to do it anymore, right?" *sigh*

I've given up for a while - I'm just keeping them all and praying they don't all get Parvo.

I let my dog have her pups because I thought "how hard could it be to find homes for them" - I still have them, so that proves that fallacy . . . and I refuse to just hand them out on a street corner. I might as well just have them euthanized instead of fooling myself into thinking they'll be adequately cared for.

Not to forget that the reason why they were all strays is that, for one reason or another, people decide they don't want them - drive out in the middle of nowhere (where I live) and drop them off, drive away. . . hoping that someone like me is always around to take them in.

I see countless animals wandering the streets out here. I took in 4 dogs - 3 cats. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of animals I've *seen* come through here.
 
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ecofarm

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Pets are possessions. Possesions are not granted personhood.

When pets are granted personhood, I'll argue that their fetus should have protections. Until then, it suffices to say that I'm ecocentric.
 

Aunt Spiker

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That's interesting, Eco, with your 'meat is murder' belief I'd expect you'd be more pro animal-rights or equality in some fashion.
 

ecofarm

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I've a sufficient fight trying to get human babies (fetus, whatever) counted as humans (with rights and stuff). You think I want to lead the crusade to consider all life (even non-human) as sacred? How do you think that'd go for me? You really want me to commit political suicide over this issue? I said I was ecocentric, that's clear enough.

Everyone searches for meaning in life, for supportive convictions that take various forms. Many look to faiths that ignore or discount the importance of this world, not realizing in any profound sense that we are born from Earth and sustained by it throughout our lives. In today’s dominating industrial culture, Earth-as-home is not a self-evident percept. Few pause daily to consider with a sense of wonder the enveloping matrix from which we came and to which, at the end, we all return. Because we are issue of the Earth, the harmonies of its lands, seas, skies and its countless beautiful organisms carry rich meanings barely understood. We are convinced that until the Ecosphere is recognized as the indispensable common ground of all human activities, people will continue to set their immediate interests first. Without an ecocentric perspective that anchors values and purposes in a greater reality than our own species, the resolution of political, economic, and religious conflicts will be impossible. Until the narrow focus on human communities is broadened to include Earth’s ecosystems – the local and regional places wherein we dwell – programs for healthy sustainable ways of living will fail. A trusting attachment to the Ecosphere, an aesthetic empathy with surrounding Nature, a feeling of awe for the miracle of the Living Earth and its mysterious harmonies, is humanity’s largely unrecognized heritage. Affectionately realized again, our connections with the natural world will begin to fill the gap in lives lived in the industrialized world. Important ecological purposes that civilization and urbanization have obscured will re-emerge. The goal is restoration of Earth’s diversity and beauty, with our prodigal species once again a cooperative, responsible, ethical member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecocentrism


ps. I don't believe in intrinsic value. I believe all entities have inherent value.
 
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The Uncola

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Some facts about animals in shelters:
Dangers of 'puppy for free' ads
Animal Cruelty - Utah's "Pound Seizure" law sells animals into lab experimentation
End Pound-Seizure
Animal rescues and shelter Facts




I have 10 dogs - over the years we've taken in 4 of them because they were stray, malnourished, and needed help.
I've had them all fixed, they're doing great, now, and I'm training them (housebreaking and basic commands)l. One was pregnant when we took her in - she had 8 pups, all of which we are also properly caring for (shots, etc) - and are being trained, doing great.

My goal: find homes for all of them.
Fact: that's HARD to do - even though I've fixed them all/have them up to date on shots/train them - it's HARD to find someone willing to take an animal in.

The economy is in the crapper, still, thousands of animals that were beloved pets have been given to shelters because people can't afford to feed them, anymore - and so trying to even give away animals when people can't take in another mouth to feed is beyond impossible right now.

Some people who have shown interest in taking them in are actually wanting 'purebred' animals - not 'stray-born' :shrug:
Others don't seem capable or interested in actually continuing their proper care and training - I've talked with one guy who honestly believed that "since you've trained them I don't have to do it anymore, right?" *sigh*

I've given up for a while - I'm just keeping them all and praying they don't all get Parvo.

I let my dog have her pups because I thought "how hard could it be to find homes for them" - I still have them, so that proves that fallacy . . . and I refuse to just hand them out on a street corner. I might as well just have them euthanized instead of fooling myself into thinking they'll be adequately cared for.

Not to forget that the reason why they were all strays is that, for one reason or another, people decide they don't want them - drive out in the middle of nowhere (where I live) and drop them off, drive away. . . hoping that someone like me is always around to take them in.

I see countless animals wandering the streets out here. I took in 4 dogs - 3 cats. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the number of animals I've *seen* come through here.
It doesn't surprise me that you are a rescue person Aunt S. It fits your nature from what I've read from you. We're "suckers" for orphans ourselves and have lost count of how many we've fostered then ended up adopting. We've got three right now, the latest came to us about a week ago. You don't want to hear the "why" her former human decided to dump her.

But our experience with these special pets has given us back so much more than it's cost us. (and they all get fixed, if they aren't already)
 

1069

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Curious as to people's thoughts on abortions for dogs, cats and so on:

Do animals have the right to carry and birth their young?

How much say should an owner of a pet have in this issue?

Do all unborn animals have the right to life?

I did remember to make this poll multiple-choice! So choose as many as you see fit.
Well, I do some work with animal rescue; we have a catch, sterilize, and release program here in my city.
A lot of times when we take feral cats in to be sterilized, they're already pregnant. The vet just removes the uterus with the fetuses inside it.

It doesn't bother me that the animals don't get a "choice", because I don't think they have the capacity to make a choice. They're slaves to their biology. It's not like they can say "no" when they're in heat and are approached by males.
I'm helping them live a longer, healthier life, and keeping the feral cat population under control.
If it gets too unmanageable, the city will start rounding them up and euthanizing them all.
 

Aunt Spiker

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It doesn't surprise me that you are a rescue person Aunt S. It fits your nature from what I've read from you. We're "suckers" for orphans ourselves and have lost count of how many we've fostered then ended up adopting. We've got three right now, the latest came to us about a week ago. You don't want to hear the "why" her former human decided to dump her.

But our experience with these special pets has given us back so much more than it's cost us. (and they all get fixed, if they aren't already)
Yep - sucker!!!

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want every stray I see - in fact, I didn't even want any of these. With every dog I've taken in there was an extensiveeffort to get rid of them, first. LOL I tried to scare them off, chase them off - even drove my truck after one of them. We're like Fight Club aruond here, if they stay for 3 days they can come inside. haha - sounds so vile, but it was like pulling teeth to convince me to take in another . . . and another.
But now that they're here I really don't want them to leave - they're adorable. They have personalities, attitudes, and can communicate with us all in some ways. It's fascinating and nice to see them all happy in the back yard.
 

Jerry

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Curious as to people's thoughts on abortions for dogs, cats and so on:

Do animals have the right to carry and birth their young?
If they have no master, then yes by default. If they have a master, then as their master wishes.

How much say should an owner of a pet have in this issue?
Assuming the owner has no master (ie local governement regulation), then absolut say. If the owner has a master, then as the master wishes (ie; as the law permits)

Do all unborn animals have the right to life?
Sure. Rights can be over ruled by a governing power, mind you.
 

Barbbtx

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i just don't see any point of aborting them, small animals like dogs and cats aren't pregnant for a long time, and you can give them away or sell them once they are weaned, which is only a few weeks, and i don't think they'd be in any more danger of being abused than animals obtained through any other means.
I'm a spay, neuter fanatic and have worked in rescues my whole life in one capacity or another. I cringe when people say things like this. Please educate yourself by reading the posts from animal welfare advocates here. I know you mean well, but you are so wrong. Thank You AUNT SPIKER, UNCOLA, and 1069 for all you do.
 

MaggieD

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If a stray dog came to me that was already pregnant, I woudn't interfere -- I'd take care of her, let her have her pups, take care of them, and try my darndest to find them good homes.

That would never happen with dogs I own because I have them neutered. And, more important, they are never allowed to run loose.

Pet owners that let their animals run loose are irresponsible. And to let an unneutered dog run loose is doubly so. Poor dogs. They just have to hope they get good masters...

Edit: We trap, neuter and release stray cats in the neighborhood, though we've made almost-house-cats out of two. PAWS-Chicago has a wonderful program. $19 for neuter/rabies/distemper/test for feline leukemia.
 
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Orion

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I didn't even know there were abortion procedures for pets, I only thought there were neutering and spaying. Weird.

Anyway... the owner can abort the litter for any reason they see fit. We have a serious animal control problem in the world of pets and the fewer there are the better. I would hope that most owners would simply get their pets fixed instead of letting it come to an abortion procedure, but these things happen.

As for the choice... I don't think animals really can choose. I doubt they understand pregnancy anymore than a human woman would if she lacked the education. She would experience the pregnancy but might not know what it is.

You can't convey the knowledge to animals so if they're your pet you are responsible for them, just like you would be responsible for your own children. The only difference is that animals can get pregnant and there is that added layer of responsibility.
 

Barbbtx

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If a stray dog came to me that was already pregnant, I woudn't interfere -- I'd take care of her, let her have her pups, take care of them, and try my darndest to find them good homes.

That would never happen with dogs I own because I have them neutered. And, more important, they are never allowed to run loose.

Pet owners that let their animals run loose are irresponsible. And to let an unneutered dog run loose is doubly so. Poor dogs. They just have to hope they get good masters...
I would do the same and have. However an animal never leaves until it is spayed or neutered first. I won't take a chance that I might be adding to the over population problem.
 

Goshin

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I grew up on a farm of sorts. While I have pets and am very fond of them, to me: animal is animal, human is human and the two are never comparable, either morally or in worth.

I do believe that animals should not be made to suffer needlessly or excessively in most circumstances, and that those who take responsibility for them should see to their needs within reason.

Aside from that, though, an animal gains any ethical or moral value it may possess based on the value that some human owner places on the animal.

If you've ever worked on a farm, you may have had this experience: an animal is born. You feed it and care for it, perhaps you even enjoy watching it grow up and interact with other animals. Then when the time is right, you kill it, gut it, remove unwanted bits, and throw the carcass in the freezer to be cooked and eaten later. That's how it is with farm animals.

Pets are different, in that humans invest emotional bonds with them. For this reason, while I have no qualms about shooting Bambi or wringing a chicken's neck, accidentally running over some kid's dog would be very upsetting... because of the emotional bond of the child for the dog. Also, because I like dogs, which is my own emotional "value" placed on dogs (as opposed to chickens, pigs, and Bambi).

But still.... animals are animals, and, to me, they simply do not rise to the level of consideration that a human does. They are a lesser form of life by several orders of magnitude and there simply is no moral equivalency.

For that reason, I am largely indifferent to the question of animal abortions. Owner's option, based on whatever criteria he decides.
 
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