And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [W:54

[flogger]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Seems logical that if carbon trading and green taxes are supposed to stop global warming, then surely putting an end to carbon trading and green taxes would prevent global cooling. What with all probability will happen is that the global warming crowd will switch their cry to “global cooling.” Clearly they will do away with carbon taxes and start charging ice taxes. Just wait and see, people will be paying ice taxes next.

It used to be a joke but at last they have found a way to tax the air we breath and even gotten some of us to believe its our moral our duty to comply. They arent going to kill that golden goose any time soon whatever the climate does

 

[gslack]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

It used to be a joke but at last they have found a way to tax the air we breath and even gotten some of us to believe its our moral our duty to comply. They arent going to kill that golden goose any time soon whatever the climate does

The beatles did a song called the 'taxman".. The lyrics are fitting...

 

[Sandokan]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Governments leapt onto this bandwagon because they could scare us into paying more tax and exercise more control over us. Science stopped being about inquiry and investigation, to become about suppressing dissent and using grants to convey the results politicians wanted. Many of the stories of the mainstream media about global warming have ignored the Climategate scandal by simple pretending it doesn’t exist.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Can anyone deny that we are polluting our atmosphere more today than we ever have?
Tell us why polluting less would be a bad thing for the planet irrespective of whether the climates are changing.
No Planes, No Trains, And No Automobiles As Record Smog Shuts Beijing | Zero Hedge
The Global Toll of Fine Particulate Matter : Image of the Day
A some point we must learn to protect ourselves from our own unfettered advance of polluting industry.
Left unchecked life will no longer be a bearable experience anywhere on earth.

 

[gslack]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Can anyone deny that we are polluting our atmosphere more today than we ever have?
Tell us why polluting less would be a bad thing for the planet irrespective of whether the climates are changing.
No Planes, No Trains, And No Automobiles As Record Smog Shuts Beijing | Zero Hedge
The Global Toll of Fine Particulate Matter : Image of the Day
A some point we must learn to protect ourselves from our own unfettered advance of polluting industry.
Left unchecked life will no longer be a bearable experience anywhere on earth.

CO2 didn't cause either problem... No one here disagrees with real environmental concerns, just the nonsense. CO2 legislation and carbon tax does not address either of those issues...

 

[flogger]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

CO2 didn't cause either problem... No one here disagrees with real environmental concerns, just the nonsense. CO2 legislation and carbon tax does not address either of those issues...

Thats the problem. Governments have successfully conflated the two issues as being one and the same and they are most certainly not. There are so many sheeple out their have been bombarded and indoctrinated by green guilt for so long now they cannot now see the difference sadly

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

CO2 didn't cause either problem... No one here disagrees with real environmental concerns, just the nonsense. CO2 legislation and carbon tax does not address either of those issues...

CO2 and particulate pollution are inexorably linked together as byproducts of unregulated and unabated industrial pollution. They go together.
The latter can be seen felt tasted and smelled so no one doubts it's bad effects on the health and quality of life. The former is invisible odorless and tasteless. It is more invasive as it permeates the upper atmosphere and changes the way the stratosphere and ozone layers interact trapping the long wave radiation from sunlight and creating unprecedented and climatically disastrous changes in the normal functions of the atmosphere.
It is easier to deny that which can only be perceived by the evidence recorded in long term atmospheric ill effects. But air pollution is dangerous . Smog that makes breathing difficult and climate changing CO2 are two results of the same phenomena...burning carbon based fuels.
The complaint and fear, that regulating and abating air pollution, may increase the costs associated with some goods, is greed induced, foolhardy, shortsightedness.
The real question you should be asking yourself is; how can we afford to do nothing, when the consequences of this greed induced complacency will probably never be reversible ?

 

[longview]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

CO2 and particulate pollution are inexorably linked together as byproducts of unregulated and unabated industrial pollution. They go together.
The latter can be seen felt tasted and smelled so no one doubts it's bad effects on the health and quality of life. The former is invisible odorless and tasteless. It is more invasive as it permeates the upper atmosphere and changes the way the stratosphere and ozone layers interact trapping the long wave radiation from sunlight and creating unprecedented and climatically disastrous changes in the normal functions of the atmosphere.
It is easier to deny that which can only be perceived by the evidence recorded in long term atmospheric ill effects. But air pollution is dangerous . Smog that makes breathing difficult and climate changing CO2 are two results of the same phenomena...burning carbon based fuels.
The complaint and fear, that regulating and abating air pollution, may increase the costs associated with some goods, is greed induced, foolhardy, shortsightedness.
The real question you should be asking yourself is; how can we afford to do nothing, when the consequences of this greed induced complacency will probably never be reversible ?

There are several real problems with your statement.
First:
It is possible to produce a carbon neutral hydrocarbon,
Fueling the Fleet, Navy Looks to the Seas - U.S. Naval Research Laboratory
Storing surplus green energy as natural gas
so much for the inexorable link.
Second:
The whole concept Co2 causing greater greenhouse effect than is already known, is just
a hypothesis.
The energy transitions necessary for additional feedback or forcing have not been defined.
No one can prove an undefined concept wrong, because a formal connection between observations
has not been established.
Third:
If we stopped using all forms of hydrocarbon fuel tomorrow, 4 out of 5 people would starve,
and it might not change the path of the climate at all.
So a huge human cost, with an unknown, possibly less than zero return.

Fyi:
I found this article, which while alarmist, did point out some of the risks of geoengineering.
Can Geoengineering Solve Global Warming? : The New Yorker

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Can anyone deny that we are polluting our atmosphere more today than we ever have?
Tell us why polluting less would be a bad thing for the planet irrespective of whether the climates are changing.
No Planes, No Trains, And No Automobiles As Record Smog Shuts Beijing | Zero Hedge
The Global Toll of Fine Particulate Matter : Image of the Day
A some point we must learn to protect ourselves from our own unfettered advance of polluting industry.
Left unchecked life will no longer be a bearable experience anywhere on earth.

The problem is in China. Talk to the Chinese.:mrgreen:

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Antarctic ice is robust as well.

[h=2]Antarctic Sea Ice Didn’t Get The Memo That It Was Supposed To Melt[/h] Posted on October 20, 2013 by justthefactswuwt
National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) – Click the pic to view at source

Image Credit: Cryosphere Today – University of Illinois – Polar Research Group
By WUWT Regular Just The Facts
Per the graph above, Antarctic Sea Ice Extent has remained above the 1981 – 2010 “normal” range for much of the last three months and the current positive Antarctic Sea Ice Extent anomaly appears quite large for a planet supposedly on the verge of Dangerous Warming.
Furthermore, in 2013 we had the third most expansive Southern Sea Ice Area measured to date;
Cryosphere Today – Arctic Climate Research at the University of Illinois – Click the pic to view at source

Continue reading →

 

[gslack]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

CO2 and particulate pollution are inexorably linked together as byproducts of unregulated and unabated industrial pollution. They go together.
The latter can be seen felt tasted and smelled so no one doubts it's bad effects on the health and quality of life. The former is invisible odorless and tasteless. It is more invasive as it permeates the upper atmosphere and changes the way the stratosphere and ozone layers interact trapping the long wave radiation from sunlight and creating unprecedented and climatically disastrous changes in the normal functions of the atmosphere.
It is easier to deny that which can only be perceived by the evidence recorded in long term atmospheric ill effects. But air pollution is dangerous . Smog that makes breathing difficult and climate changing CO2 are two results of the same phenomena...burning carbon based fuels.
The complaint and fear, that regulating and abating air pollution, may increase the costs associated with some goods, is greed induced, foolhardy, shortsightedness.
The real question you should be asking yourself is; how can we afford to do nothing, when the consequences of this greed induced complacency will probably never be reversible ?

Yet no carbon tax is going to address this problem.. And that's the point I was making. Limiting CO2 will not necessarily lower any other particulate matter, and taxing CO2 certainly will not.. The IPCC recommendations and proposed legislation are not addressing this problem, they are only addressing CO2 and as far as they are concerned any other air pollution is a problem of the respective nations themselves. In the case of the EU, they have adopted their own legislation on this, but that is a separate matter from CO2 emissions.

again, taxing or limiting CO2 does not directly address this issue, and in reality the only time such issues are mentioned is to get support for CO2 legislation.

 

[flogger]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Yet no carbon tax is going to address this problem.. And that's the point I was making. Limiting CO2 will not necessarily lower any other particulate matter, and taxing CO2 certainly will not.. The IPCC recommendations and proposed legislation are not addressing this problem, they are only addressing CO2 and as far as they are concerned any other air pollution is a problem of the respective nations themselves. In the case of the EU, they have adopted their own legislation on this, but that is a separate matter from CO2 emissions.

again, taxing or limiting CO2 does not directly address this issue, and in reality the only time such issues are mentioned is to get support for CO2 legislation.

Its more fundamental than that even. You tax CO 2 you tax the very elixir of life itself. Its tragic that environmentalists have demonized it thus

Plants Need CO2 - Carbon Dioxide Emissions - Global Warming Climate Change Facts

 

[code1211]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Can anyone deny that we are polluting our atmosphere more today than we ever have?
Tell us why polluting less would be a bad thing for the planet irrespective of whether the climates are changing.
No Planes, No Trains, And No Automobiles As Record Smog Shuts Beijing | Zero Hedge
The Global Toll of Fine Particulate Matter : Image of the Day
A some point we must learn to protect ourselves from our own unfettered advance of polluting industry.
Left unchecked life will no longer be a bearable experience anywhere on earth.

All of that is well and good.

What will passing a law in the USA have to do with air pollution in China?

 

[code1211]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

CO2 and particulate pollution are inexorably linked together as byproducts of unregulated and unabated industrial pollution. They go together.
The latter can be seen felt tasted and smelled so no one doubts it's bad effects on the health and quality of life. The former is invisible odorless and tasteless. It is more invasive as it permeates the upper atmosphere and changes the way the stratosphere and ozone layers interact trapping the long wave radiation from sunlight and creating unprecedented and climatically disastrous changes in the normal functions of the atmosphere.
It is easier to deny that which can only be perceived by the evidence recorded in long term atmospheric ill effects. But air pollution is dangerous . Smog that makes breathing difficult and climate changing CO2 are two results of the same phenomena...burning carbon based fuels.
The complaint and fear, that regulating and abating air pollution, may increase the costs associated with some goods, is greed induced, foolhardy, shortsightedness.
The real question you should be asking yourself is; how can we afford to do nothing, when the consequences of this greed induced complacency will probably never be reversible ?

You are simply wrong.

The pictures from the Chinese cities enveloped in smog today could have been taken in LA in 1965, but not today.

If it is irreversible, please explain the reversal in LA.

 

[code1211]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

There are several real problems with your statement.
First:
It is possible to produce a carbon neutral hydrocarbon,
Fueling the Fleet, Navy Looks to the Seas - U.S. Naval Research Laboratory
Storing surplus green energy as natural gas
so much for the inexorable link.
Second:
The whole concept Co2 causing greater greenhouse effect than is already known, is just
a hypothesis.
The energy transitions necessary for additional feedback or forcing have not been defined.
No one can prove an undefined concept wrong, because a formal connection between observations
has not been established.
Third:
If we stopped using all forms of hydrocarbon fuel tomorrow, 4 out of 5 people would starve,
and it might not change the path of the climate at all.
So a huge human cost, with an unknown, possibly less than zero return.

Fyi:
I found this article, which while alarmist, did point out some of the risks of geoengineering.
Can Geoengineering Solve Global Warming? : The New Yorker

As you know, I have the greatest respect for you and love your posts.

The notion of AGW has never been expressed as a legitimate Scientific hypothesis as there has never been a test to falsify the notion defined.

 

[code1211]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Antarctic ice is robust as well.

[h=2]Antarctic Sea Ice Didn’t Get The Memo That It Was Supposed To Melt[/h] Posted on October 20, 2013 by justthefactswuwt
National Snow & Ice Data Center (NSIDC) – Click the pic to view at source

Image Credit: Cryosphere Today – University of Illinois – Polar Research Group
By WUWT Regular Just The Facts
Per the graph above, Antarctic Sea Ice Extent has remained above the 1981 – 2010 “normal” range for much of the last three months and the current positive Antarctic Sea Ice Extent anomaly appears quite large for a planet supposedly on the verge of Dangerous Warming.
Furthermore, in 2013 we had the third most expansive Southern Sea Ice Area measured to date;
Cryosphere Today – Arctic Climate Research at the University of Illinois – Click the pic to view at source

Continue reading →

Uh-oh!

The variation is outside the range of Standard Variation. When this happened at the North Pole, we were told the world was ending.

What will it mean at the South Pole?

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

September global land and ocean temperature data per GISS: 2013 Ties for Warmest September on Record

September:
2013: +0.74°C (Tied for warmest on record with 2005)
Vs. 1981-2010 baseline: +0.367°C
Vs. 30-Year Moving Average: +0.321°C

Year-to-Date:
2013: +0.588°C (6th warmest)
Vs. 1981-2010 baseline: +0.244°C
Vs. 30-Year Moving Average: +0.205°C

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

2013 also saw the warmest land temperature anomaly for September on record.

It should be noted that this data is preliminary and subject to future revision.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

September global land and ocean temperature data per GISS: 2013 Ties for Warmest September on Record

September:
2013: +0.74°C (Tied for warmest on record with 2005)
Vs. 1981-2010 baseline: +0.367°C
Vs. 30-Year Moving Average: +0.321°C

Year-to-Date:
2013: +0.588°C (6th warmest)
Vs. 1981-2010 baseline: +0.244°C
Vs. 30-Year Moving Average: +0.205°C

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata_v3/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt

2013 also saw the warmest land temperature anomaly for September on record.

It should be noted that this data is preliminary and subject to future revision.

[h=2]Statistical Analyses of Surface Temperatures in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report[/h] Posted on October 30, 2013 by Guest Blogger
Guest essay by Douglas J. Keenan
Temperatures on Earth’s surface—i.e. where people live—are widely believed to provide evidence for global warming. Demonstrating that those temperatures actually provide evidence, though, requires doing statistical analysis.
All such statistical analyses of the temperatures that have been done so far are fatally flawed. Astoundingly, those flaws are effectively acknowledged in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report (AR5).
The flaws imply that there is no demonstrated observational evidence that global temperatures have significantly increased (i.e. increased more than would be expected from natural climatic variation alone).

Despite this, one of the main conclusions of AR5 is that global temperatures have increased very significantly. That conclusion is based on analysis that AR5 itself acknowledges is fatally flawed. The correct conclusion is that there is no demonstrated observational evidence for global warming.
Full critique at http://www.informath.org/AR5stat.pdfeace

 

[Sandokan]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

The facts seem to point to the conclusion that man can only make semi informed guesses about the future climate changes. If is warmer than normal it's Climate Change. If it's colder than normal it's Climate Change. This has many advantages over Global Warming since temperatures going down are also change. Climate Change is a progressive money making hoax.

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

[h=2]Statistical Analyses of Surface Temperatures in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report[/h] Posted on October 30, 2013 by Guest Blogger
Guest essay by Douglas J. Keenan
Temperatures on Earth’s surface—i.e. where people live—are widely believed to provide evidence for global warming. Demonstrating that those temperatures actually provide evidence, though, requires doing statistical analysis.
All such statistical analyses of the temperatures that have been done so far are fatally flawed. Astoundingly, those flaws are effectively acknowledged in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report (AR5).
The flaws imply that there is no demonstrated observational evidence that global temperatures have significantly increased (i.e. increased more than would be expected from natural climatic variation alone).

Despite this, one of the main conclusions of AR5 is that global temperatures have increased very significantly. That conclusion is based on analysis that AR5 itself acknowledges is fatally flawed. The correct conclusion is that there is no demonstrated observational evidence for global warming.
Full critique at http://www.informath.org/AR5stat.pdfeace

Several points:

1. The blogger seems not to have read much if any of the IPCC report. Evidence of warming (regardless of the causation) depends not just on earth's surface/land temperatures. Powerful evidence exists with respect to rising Oceanic Heat Content.

2. The IPCC report lays out descriptive and quantitative statistical evidence and levels of confidence/uncertainty for a range of factors e.g., natural and anthropogenic forcings. Even considering the limits set forth, it provides a conclusive case of warming and very strong cause that the warming is beyond what could be attributed to natural forcings e.g., fluctuations in solar activity, and natural climatic cycles. It seems that the blogger is attaching disproportionate importance to selective measures of uncertainty while altogether ignoring the others that undermine his preferred conclusion.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

Several points:

1. The blogger seems not to have read much if any of the IPCC report. Evidence of warming (regardless of the causation) depends not just on earth's surface/land temperatures. Powerful evidence exists with respect to rising Oceanic Heat Content.

2. The IPCC report lays out descriptive and quantitative statistical evidence and levels of confidence/uncertainty for a range of factors e.g., natural and anthropogenic forcings. Even considering the limits set forth, it provides a conclusive case of warming and very strong cause that the warming is beyond what could be attributed to natural forcings e.g., fluctuations in solar activity, and natural climatic cycles. It seems that the blogger is attaching disproportionate importance to selective measures of uncertainty while altogether ignoring the others that undermine his preferred conclusion.

And the mirror image argument could be equally made.eace

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

And the mirror image argument could be equally made.eace

If the IPCC had made conclusions that were unsupported by its statistical findings, the report would have been shredded. It wasn't. Moreover, the entire report was published in September and is available publicly.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

If the IPCC had made conclusions that were unsupported by its statistical findings, the report would have been shredded. It wasn't. Moreover, the entire report was published in September and is available publicly.

I'm aware of that. The author's contention is that the IPCC's statistical methodology cannot support their conclusions.eace

 

[donsutherland1]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

I'm aware of that. The author's contention is that the IPCC's statistical methodology cannot support their conclusions.eace

But he fails to provide a robust explanation as to why it can't. If one uses the report's methodology, the case is well-supported from a statistical basis. Statistical concepts ranging from central tendency to variability to probability are also applied correctly.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: And now it's global COOLING! Record return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 60% [

But he fails to provide a robust explanation as to why it can't. If one uses the report's methodology, the case is well-supported from a statistical basis. Statistical concepts ranging from central tendency to variability to probability are also applied correctly.

And the author's 22 page critique?eace