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An Israeli citizen's perspective regarding "The Peace Process"

MyRon

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Hi,

My name is Ron. I am new here.

As I see it, this long-forgotten notion of a de-militarized, Jewish-State-accepting Palestinian state is an obvious failure that still resonates the halls of every major decision-making party / mediator.

As I see it, peace did not stand a chance in the first place.

Since the establishment of the terrorist movement, Hamas, and the world's subsequent denial of it being what it has always been - a terror organization, peace was doomed for failure.

Just imagine how it would have turned out, if all Western countries had made sure to declare this rogue entity a barrier for peace and stability, right from the get-go.

No political / financial ties. Total US ban on financial assets and money transferring. No co-operation, non-whatsoever with any entity, including the Palestinian Authority -- total isolation and denial of the right to hold outspoken declarations of the annihilation of the State of Israel.

Where would we be now?

The PA would have its A, B and C territories. It would be totally independent. The whole region would flourish and there would be neighborly co-operation on geographical and financial endeavors, cementing the Middle East as a power of goodness, success and freedom.

But, as we all know, the world has always been and will forever be blind as to how cruel they are, even with their own citizens.

Hamas has no regard for human rights, no qualms about killing people, practically just for the fun of it. Hamas uses children as human shield and bombs its own life-line - border-crossings that provide food and medicine for a decaying population, ripped off any hope for a better future.

In my opinion, Hamas is far more detrimental for the Palestinians than it is for Israel. They would have long-ago had a state of their own.


THE WORLD IS TO BLAME


Russia / Muslim countries / myopic Western countries - they're all to blame! If Israel had been bluffing this whole time, not willing to co-operate with peace / giving territories, IT would have been the one isolated and backed into a corner that would have coerced it to negotiate.

Israeli public opinion / election results would have made it impossible for our leaders to perpetuate violence and death.

Instead, we have a potential terror base enveloping Israel on all sides. Hamas would no-doubt seize power of newly-given territories, as it did in 2007, while throwing PA officers off rooftops into their death.

Neither Israel nor the PA is to blame. THE WORLD IS TO BLAME!
 
Hi,

My name is Ron. I am new here.

As I see it, this long-forgotten notion of a de-militarized, Jewish-State-accepting Palestinian state is an obvious failure that still resonates the halls of every major decision-making party / mediator.

As I see it, peace did not stand a chance in the first place.

Since the establishment of the terrorist movement, Hamas, and the world's subsequent denial of it being what it has always been - a terror organization, peace was doomed for failure.

Just imagine how it would have turned out, if all Western countries had made sure to declare this rogue entity a barrier for peace and stability, right from the get-go.

No political / financial ties. Total US ban on financial assets and money transferring. No co-operation, non-whatsoever with any entity, including the Palestinian Authority -- total isolation and denial of the right to hold outspoken declarations of the annihilation of the State of Israel.

Where would we be now?

The PA would have its A, B and C territories. It would be totally independent. The whole region would flourish and there would be neighborly co-operation on geographical and financial endeavors, cementing the Middle East as a power of goodness, success and freedom.

But, as we all know, the world has always been and will forever be blind as to how cruel they are, even with their own citizens.

Hamas has no regard for human rights, no qualms about killing people, practically just for the fun of it. Hamas uses children as human shield and bombs its own life-line - border-crossings that provide food and medicine for a decaying population, ripped off any hope for a better future.

In my opinion, Hamas is far more detrimental for the Palestinians than it is for Israel. They would have long-ago had a state of their own.


THE WORLD IS TO BLAME


Russia / Muslim countries / myopic Western countries - they're all to blame! If Israel had been bluffing this whole time, not willing to co-operate with peace / giving territories, IT would have been the one isolated and backed into a corner that would have coerced it to negotiate.

Israeli public opinion / election results would have made it impossible for our leaders to perpetuate violence and death.

Instead, we have a potential terror base enveloping Israel on all sides. Hamas would no-doubt seize power of newly-given territories, as it did in 2007, while throwing PA officers off rooftops into their death.

Neither Israel nor the PA is to blame. THE WORLD IS TO BLAME!

MyRon:

There is enough blame to go around, but to exonerate the State of Israel is absurd. It is one of the two prime actors in this long, 70+ year struggle along with the Palestinian people. The pre-Israeli pseudo state (the Jewish Agency) knowingly and with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day. The Israeli state is the occupying power in the Occupied Territories and its military and intelligence arms of the state have done a lot more death and damage to Palestinians than Palestinians have done to the State of Israel and its people. So Israel is hardly blameless for this protracted mess.

But you are right about the world letting this problem fester for about three and a half generations. Had the international community moved quickly and forcefully to stop Jewish paramilitaries and later the State of Israel in 1948 by reoccupying the Mandate of Palestine and disarming both sides in this struggle for land, then this mess could have been avoided for the most part. That window of opportunity closed in 1966-1967 when Israel developed nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

So whose to blame? The radical zionists who took up arms, the radical Palestinians (including Hamas) who took up arms, The State of Israel which continues to seize land, the surrounding Arab States who used Zionism to focus Arab rage away from their own domestic problems and onto Israel in a campaign of state-sponsored and super-charged xenophobia, the surrounding Arab states for believing that war(s) could solve this mess, the UK Government for abandoning its responsibilities in the Mandate of Palestine, the UN for naiveté and impotence in stopping this mess early, France for helping Israel develop nuclear weapons and a strong armed forces later replaced by the USA for supporting Israel with political cover and huge amounts of money for militarisation, and finally the world for tolerating the vicious, aggressive, regional leviathan that the Israel State has become since the late 1970's.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
MyRon:

There is enough blame to go around, but to exonerate the State of Israel is absurd. It is one of the two prime actors in this long, 70+ year struggle along with the Palestinian people. The pre-Israeli pseudo state (the Jewish Agency) knowingly and with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day. The Israeli state is the occupying power in the Occupied Territories and its military and intelligence arms of the state have done a lot more death and damage to Palestinians than Palestinians have done to the State of Israel and its people. So Israel is hardly blameless for this protracted mess.

But you are right about the world letting this problem fester for about three and a half generations. Had the international community moved quickly and forcefully to stop Jewish paramilitaries and later the State of Israel in 1948 by reoccupying the Mandate of Palestine and disarming both sides in this struggle for land, then this mess could have been avoided for the most part. That window of opportunity closed in 1966-1967 when Israel developed nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

So whose to blame? The radical zionists who took up arms, the radical Palestinians (including Hamas) who took up arms, The State of Israel which continues to seize land, the surrounding Arab States who used Zionism to focus Arab rage away from their own domestic problems and onto Israel in a campaign of state-sponsored and super-charged xenophobia, the surrounding Arab states for believing that war(s) could solve this mess, the UK Government for abandoning its responsibilities in the Mandate of Palestine, the UN for naiveté and impotence in stopping this mess early, France for helping Israel develop nuclear weapons and a strong armed forces later replaced by the USA for supporting Israel with political cover and huge amounts of money for militarisation, and finally the world for tolerating the vicious, aggressive, regional leviathan that the Israel State has become since the late 1970's.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

"With Malice"

How do you attribute such a notion to the jewish agency? You realize that they had just dealt with a holocaust and jews as a whole were poor and minute in number. Prior to, there had only been few outbreaks of violence between jews and arabs, and statehood was never goal for either the jews or the arabs at the time.
 
MyRon:

There is enough blame to go around, but to exonerate the State of Israel is absurd. It is one of the two prime actors in this long, 70+ year struggle along with the Palestinian people. The pre-Israeli pseudo state (the Jewish Agency) knowingly and with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day. The Israeli state is the occupying power in the Occupied Territories and its military and intelligence arms of the state have done a lot more death and damage to Palestinians than Palestinians have done to the State of Israel and its people. So Israel is hardly blameless for this protracted mess.

But you are right about the world letting this problem fester for about three and a half generations. Had the international community moved quickly and forcefully to stop Jewish paramilitaries and later the State of Israel in 1948 by reoccupying the Mandate of Palestine and disarming both sides in this struggle for land, then this mess could have been avoided for the most part. That window of opportunity closed in 1966-1967 when Israel developed nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

So whose to blame? The radical zionists who took up arms, the radical Palestinians (including Hamas) who took up arms, The State of Israel which continues to seize land, the surrounding Arab States who used Zionism to focus Arab rage away from their own domestic problems and onto Israel in a campaign of state-sponsored and super-charged xenophobia, the surrounding Arab states for believing that war(s) could solve this mess, the UK Government for abandoning its responsibilities in the Mandate of Palestine, the UN for naiveté and impotence in stopping this mess early, France for helping Israel develop nuclear weapons and a strong armed forces later replaced by the USA for supporting Israel with political cover and huge amounts of money for militarisation, and finally the world for tolerating the vicious, aggressive, regional leviathan that the Israel State has become since the late 1970's.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

Wicked barbarians have been fighting God and the Jewish people for 4,000 years over the onership rights to the land of Judah given to Abraham and his descendants for a never-ending inheritance. To hell with the devil and his human associates.
 
"With Malice"

How do you attribute such a notion to the jewish agency? You realize that they had just dealt with a holocaust and jews as a whole were poor and minute in number. Prior to, there had only been few outbreaks of violence between jews and arabs, and statehood was never goal for either the jews or the arabs at the time.

DW12:

Here are two sources for you to examine vis a vis malice of forethought by the Jewish Agency, Haganah etc.

https://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine

http://pbble.com/doc/Khalidi-Plan-Dalet.pdf

The history of the "new historians" in Israel since the late 1970's was and is dispelling old myths and pointing the finger at Israeli institutions for much of the expulsions of Palestinians driven out between 1947 and 1949. Worse still the new historians used Agency and Israeli government and military reports to prove their case in addition to Arab sources. So the word malice is appropriate in this instance.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Wicked barbarians have been fighting God and the Jewish people for 4,000 years over the onership rights to the land of Judah given to Abraham and his descendants for a never-ending inheritance. To hell with the devil and his human associates.

Marke:

Actually it's closer to 5500 years and the hill barbarians were the Hebrew hill tribes while the citified Canaanites were the civilised folks who were massacred and wiped out. Next it was the Amalekites, Eblaites and Amorites although these were nomadic folk for the most part. Later the Hebrews moved to attack the Philistines along the coast and later still he civilised Syrians and Neo-Hittites in what is now called Phoenicia.

So the barbarians were the "wicked"* Hebrews who seized the land from their civilised neighbours by force arms until the Assyrians and later the Babylonians ended the ancient Jewish kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
MyRon:

There is enough blame to go around, but to exonerate the State of Israel is absurd. It is one of the two prime actors in this long, 70+ year struggle along with the Palestinian people. The pre-Israeli pseudo state (the Jewish Agency) knowingly and with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day. The Israeli state is the occupying power in the Occupied Territories and its military and intelligence arms of the state have done a lot more death and damage to Palestinians than Palestinians have done to the State of Israel and its people. So Israel is hardly blameless for this protracted mess.

But you are right about the world letting this problem fester for about three and a half generations. Had the international community moved quickly and forcefully to stop Jewish paramilitaries and later the State of Israel in 1948 by reoccupying the Mandate of Palestine and disarming both sides in this struggle for land, then this mess could have been avoided for the most part. That window of opportunity closed in 1966-1967 when Israel developed nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them.

So whose to blame? The radical zionists who took up arms, the radical Palestinians (including Hamas) who took up arms, The State of Israel which continues to seize land, the surrounding Arab States who used Zionism to focus Arab rage away from their own domestic problems and onto Israel in a campaign of state-sponsored and super-charged xenophobia, the surrounding Arab states for believing that war(s) could solve this mess, the UK Government for abandoning its responsibilities in the Mandate of Palestine, the UN for naiveté and impotence in stopping this mess early, France for helping Israel develop nuclear weapons and a strong armed forces later replaced by the USA for supporting Israel with political cover and huge amounts of money for militarisation, and finally the world for tolerating the vicious, aggressive, regional leviathan that the Israel State has become since the late 1970's.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.



Exonerate? I wasn't aware Israel was on trial. It isn't. There's no case, none whatsoever.

About 1947-1948 – reducing Jewish history to one year of settling down in our fathers' land is not only insulting, but a ridicule to historical facts.

"…with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day…"

Your uncanny mention of using force by Israel, while neglecting to mention Palestinian terror acts, numerous, unprovoked, indiscriminate launching of thousands of rockets into innocent population indicates total bias and preposterous representation of historical and present-time events.

Making a comparison of how many dead people there have been on each side is a fallacy. Are we supposed to apologize for not having more casualties on our side? It is the aggressor who gets whipped. It is the aggressor who must learn his/her lesson well.

Instead of defending the radicals, an intelligent person would make a clear distinction between the Palestinian Authority, who would have made real and viable peace with Israel, and the barbaric, God-less Hamas, who wouldn't even shed a tear over another Palestinian child dying as a result of their callous and asinine method of bringing nothing but pain, poverty and despair to their decaying population. Playing with human lives has always been their game. They put children in harm's way, provoke Israel and wait for the fallout – world condemnation for Israel rightfully retaliating. Let the world condemn. Anti-Semitism is almost as old as history is!

One of the most important decisions Israel has ever made is – arming itself with nukes. Not only does it serve to defend this single Jewish State, but it deters other primitive players from taking unnecessary risks and putting their own population in harm's way.

Who's to blame? (not "whose")

How about the ones who will never settle for anything less than the total annihilation of the State of Israel?

We can debate it until we are blue in the face – who IS or ISN'T entitled to have this land, but at the end of the day it is Hamas that has prevented a non-barbaric solution, by declaring the entirety of the Land of Israel as the future Palestine.

Let them dream on, while their children are caught between the cross-fire.

As Golda Meir once said: "The second the Palestinians start loving their own children, more than they love to hate Israel – that's when there will be peace."

Never-ever will they ever.

:-(
 
Marke:

Actually it's closer to 5500 years and the hill barbarians were the Hebrew hill tribes while the citified Canaanites were the civilised folks who were massacred and wiped out. Next it was the Amalekites, Eblaites and Amorites although these were nomadic folk for the most part. Later the Hebrews moved to attack the Philistines along the coast and later still he civilised Syrians and Neo-Hittites in what is now called Phoenicia.

So the barbarians were the "wicked"* Hebrews who seized the land from their civilised neighbours by force arms until the Assyrians and later the Babylonians ended the ancient Jewish kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

In the eyes of bloody savage enemies of God the well-disciplined respectable children of God are the barbarians.
 
Exonerate? I wasn't aware Israel was on trial. It isn't. There's no case, none whatsoever.

About 1947-1948 – reducing Jewish history to one year of settling down in our fathers' land is not only insulting, but a ridicule to historical facts.

"…with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day…"

Your uncanny mention of using force by Israel, while neglecting to mention Palestinian terror acts, numerous, unprovoked, indiscriminate launching of thousands of rockets into innocent population indicates total bias and preposterous representation of historical and present-time events.

Making a comparison of how many dead people there have been on each side is a fallacy. Are we supposed to apologize for not having more casualties on our side? It is the aggressor who gets whipped. It is the aggressor who must learn his/her lesson well.

Instead of defending the radicals, an intelligent person would make a clear distinction between the Palestinian Authority, who would have made real and viable peace with Israel, and the barbaric, God-less Hamas, who wouldn't even shed a tear over another Palestinian child dying as a result of their callous and asinine method of bringing nothing but pain, poverty and despair to their decaying population. Playing with human lives has always been their game. They put children in harm's way, provoke Israel and wait for the fallout – world condemnation for Israel rightfully retaliating. Let the world condemn. Anti-Semitism is almost as old as history is!

One of the most important decisions Israel has ever made is – arming itself with nukes. Not only does it serve to defend this single Jewish State, but it deters other primitive players from taking unnecessary risks and putting their own population in harm's way.

Who's to blame? (not "whose")

How about the ones who will never settle for anything less than the total annihilation of the State of Israel?

We can debate it until we are blue in the face – who IS or ISN'T entitled to have this land, but at the end of the day it is Hamas that has prevented a non-barbaric solution, by declaring the entirety of the Land of Israel as the future Palestine.

Let them dream on, while their children are caught between the cross-fire.

As Golda Meir once said: "The second the Palestinians start loving their own children, more than they love to hate Israel – that's when there will be peace."

Never-ever will they ever.

:-(

MyRon:

On the whose/who's point I stand corrected. I don't know why I made that mistake as I know better, but make it I did. As to the rest we shall have to disagree as your perspective seems as warped and entrenched to me as that of the Hamas militants who plague Israel and the people of Gaza. As to trials, all nations and states are on trial in the court of history and thus are judged by their actions both at home and internationally. So get used to it.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
In the eyes of bloody savage enemies of God the well-disciplined respectable children of God are the barbarians.

Marke:

Ah, when reason fails then invoke the cataclysms of hate and divine license to dehumanise others who do not share your faith. That kind of thinking was discredited in Western society after the miseries of the Wars of Religion culminating in the monstrosity of the Thirty Years War. What a shame you are blowing air on the smouldering embers of those ancient enmities in order to relight the fires of religious conflict. Pax Vobiscum.

Cheers and peace be upon you.
Evilroddy.
 
Exonerate? I wasn't aware Israel was on trial. It isn't. There's no case, none whatsoever.

About 1947-1948 – reducing Jewish history to one year of settling down in our fathers' land is not only insulting, but a ridicule to historical facts.

"…with malice of forethought seized legally held Palestinians' lands by force of arms in 1947-1948 and Israel has continued that process to this day…"

Your uncanny mention of using force by Israel, while neglecting to mention Palestinian terror acts, numerous, unprovoked, indiscriminate launching of thousands of rockets into innocent population indicates total bias and preposterous representation of historical and present-time events.

Making a comparison of how many dead people there have been on each side is a fallacy. Are we supposed to apologize for not having more casualties on our side? It is the aggressor who gets whipped. It is the aggressor who must learn his/her lesson well.

Instead of defending the radicals, an intelligent person would make a clear distinction between the Palestinian Authority, who would have made real and viable peace with Israel, and the barbaric, God-less Hamas, who wouldn't even shed a tear over another Palestinian child dying as a result of their callous and asinine method of bringing nothing but pain, poverty and despair to their decaying population. Playing with human lives has always been their game. They put children in harm's way, provoke Israel and wait for the fallout – world condemnation for Israel rightfully retaliating. Let the world condemn. Anti-Semitism is almost as old as history is!

One of the most important decisions Israel has ever made is – arming itself with nukes. Not only does it serve to defend this single Jewish State, but it deters other primitive players from taking unnecessary risks and putting their own population in harm's way.

Who's to blame? (not "whose")

How about the ones who will never settle for anything less than the total annihilation of the State of Israel?

We can debate it until we are blue in the face – who IS or ISN'T entitled to have this land, but at the end of the day it is Hamas that has prevented a non-barbaric solution, by declaring the entirety of the Land of Israel as the future Palestine.

Let them dream on, while their children are caught between the cross-fire.

As Golda Meir once said: "The second the Palestinians start loving their own children, more than they love to hate Israel – that's when there will be peace."

Never-ever will they ever.

:-(

40 Years passed from the advent of Israel to the advent of Hamas. Hamas initially being tacitly welcomed by the Israeli leadership as a challenge to the PLO who were the Israeli bogeymen of the times

You can blame everything on Hamas ( or " THE WORLD " ) if you want to , if it's expedient to your views to do so but I don't think you will be taken seriously by anyone who has spent a little time studying this conflict , regardless of their particular bent/partisanship. It's just way too simplistic and , as already stated , misses out 4 decades of a 130 ish year long conflict. The last 80 years or so being the most intense

In fact there's so much , I consider to be , partisan ill informed pro Israel bias in the OP it's hard to know where to even start without having to post thousands of words on numerous subjects related to it

You would be better served imo to at least try to apply the same standards to both sides and accept that both sides have their valid points and their invalid ones. That both sides in the conflict have committed and continue to commit crimes against the other. The content of the OP doesn't bode well for you in this regard , again , imo
 
Hi,

My name is Ron. I am new here.

As I see it, this long-forgotten notion of a de-militarized, Jewish-State-accepting Palestinian state is an obvious failure that still resonates the halls of every major decision-making party / mediator.

As I see it, peace did not stand a chance in the first place.

Since the establishment of the terrorist movement, Hamas, and the world's subsequent denial of it being what it has always been - a terror organization, peace was doomed for failure.

Just imagine how it would have turned out, if all Western countries had made sure to declare this rogue entity a barrier for peace and stability, right from the get-go.

No political / financial ties. Total US ban on financial assets and money transferring. No co-operation, non-whatsoever with any entity, including the Palestinian Authority -- total isolation and denial of the right to hold outspoken declarations of the annihilation of the State of Israel.

Where would we be now?

The PA would have its A, B and C territories. It would be totally independent. The whole region would flourish and there would be neighborly co-operation on geographical and financial endeavors, cementing the Middle East as a power of goodness, success and freedom.

But, as we all know, the world has always been and will forever be blind as to how cruel they are, even with their own citizens.

Hamas has no regard for human rights, no qualms about killing people, practically just for the fun of it. Hamas uses children as human shield and bombs its own life-line - border-crossings that provide food and medicine for a decaying population, ripped off any hope for a better future.

In my opinion, Hamas is far more detrimental for the Palestinians than it is for Israel. They would have long-ago had a state of their own.


THE WORLD IS TO BLAME


Russia / Muslim countries / myopic Western countries - they're all to blame! If Israel had been bluffing this whole time, not willing to co-operate with peace / giving territories, IT would have been the one isolated and backed into a corner that would have coerced it to negotiate.

Israeli public opinion / election results would have made it impossible for our leaders to perpetuate violence and death.

Instead, we have a potential terror base enveloping Israel on all sides. Hamas would no-doubt seize power of newly-given territories, as it did in 2007, while throwing PA officers off rooftops into their death.

Neither Israel nor the PA is to blame. THE WORLD IS TO BLAME!

First of all welcome aboard, always good to have another Israeli here and more importantly another one who knows the reality of the conflict and not someone who feeds entirely on the nonsense of antisemitic/pro-terror propaganda hate-sites.

As to your post; The majority of the civilized world if not all of it do recognize Hamas as a terror group, have them on their terror groups list, and the formal actions regarding that Islamist terror group are in line with that recognition. I don't think Hamas would cease to exist or would not rule Gaza today had the Western 'world' taken any other approach. It's a terror group and like other terror groups it controls the territory and its people through force and force alone.

The question you need to ask is this; in the case where the entire planet outside Hamas and its key allies are giving Israel a diplomatic backing in going in and destroying Hamas, would that mean that Israel would actually choose to do so? If Israel wants to completely erase the terror group it needs to remove the gloves and engage in more thorough operations than it has so far, but this would cost a lot in human losses as well as in other places. The main question of course is what to do afterwards, after there is no more Hamas, and we do not know who or what will replace their terror rule.

I think it is Israel that has not decided that it wants to erase Hamas and hence why they still exist. The question "who is to blame" has one answer and that is Hamas and the Palestinians who allowed it and continue to allow it to exist. Only after saying that can you discuss the pathetic and weak approach by the international community in regards to the terror groups that make Jews their target.
 
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