An Interesting View on Adoption vs. Abortion (1 Viewer)

[CaptainCourtesy]

Heard an interesting view on the abortion issue and how it relates to adoption and life of the fetus/unborn/whatever which side is calling it these days.

I work with teenagers, and in my work the issue of sexuality and sexual activity often gets discussed. I'll ask them their position on abortion and I have gotten the whole gammut of answers from strongly pro-life to strongly pro-choice. Today, the issue came up for a 16-year-old girl that I am working with (the context is unimportant). I asked her what her position on abortion/choice was. This 16 year-old is an Asian given up for adoption right after birth and adopted by American parents. When I asked her, I knew this, but didn't anticipate her answer (though I probably should have). She looked at me strangely and said, "I'm totally against abortion." Still not seeing where she was heading, I asked, "Why?" Looking me squarely in the eye, she said, "My birth parents probably thought about having one. But if they had I wouldn't be here. I'm glad they didn't".

I have been tentatively pro-choice all my life, (which is why I don't post, often in the Abortion Forum) so the above isn't some sort of fundamental religious 'tale' that I have been spouting for years. This actually happened, today, to me. No joke, no rhetoric. Don't think it'll change my view, since in the womb, she would've had no concept of whether she 'wanted' to be alive or not, but this is a very nice, intelligent girl, whom I'm glad I've met. Made me think a bit about this whole issue in a little bit different way.

Any thoughts?

 

[FallingPianos]

Don't think it'll change my view, since in the womb, she would've had no concept of whether she 'wanted' to be alive or not

im sure there are many more like her out there, but its really not relevant because at the time they would have been aborted, they would have been incapible of caring.

 

[talloulou]

im sure there are many more like her out there, but its really not relevant because at the time they would have been aborted, they would have been incapible of caring.

It's completely relevant. It is people like her that prove that even if you are "unwanted" by your biological mother you can be adopted by someone else and have a very good life as well as an appreciation and awareness that you thankfully weren't slaughtered in the womb by a woman who couldn't tolerate a nine month inconvenience.

And as far as this idea that she would have been unaware had she been aborted......

If someone does something to you that harms you but you didn't know they did it, that it was "done to you" does that mean you weren't harmed? Some peoples lives are taken in the blink of an eye. They're dead before they ever knew what hit them. They didn't have time to think about or be aware of what was happening.

Furthermore there are people out there who are making decisions that are harming others all the time. The others may not be aware who is making such decisions so does that unawareness let the guilty party of the hook?

Let's say you fall down and think you are hurt because you were unlucky and just fell on your arse. But what if someone set you up to fall? Designed the floor plan knowing it increased your chances to fall and get hurt just because they're evil and enjoy such antics. Now lets say you are never made aware of the plot that was designed to cause you harm. You don't know someone was responsible for your fall and you are completely oblivious to the one who did you harm. Does that lack of awareness let the bad person off the hook???

I say f uck no!

 

[ngdawg]

I think that's not a good analogy.
A person capable of walking, only to fall and be injured, is injured, feels it, deals with it, lives with it. That's more a scenario not unlike someone who actually has an abortion would have, not the aborted.
And, as someone who has wanted children, perhaps to you it's just a nine month inconvenience, to someone in dire straits, it's much, much more, so again, bad comparison. The following 18, 21 years, whatever, are a welcome inconvenience to us, not just those 9 months.
Regardless of a woman's decision to abort or give up, it is something she will have to wrestle with the rest of her life-it is not something those of us who welcomed our children even have to think twice about and it doesn't matter where that child came from. That girl was adopted because she was wanted.

 

[Jerry]

Heard an interesting view on the abortion issue and how it relates to adoption and life of the fetus/unborn/whatever which side is calling it these days.

I work with teenagers, and in my work the issue of sexuality and sexual activity often gets discussed. I'll ask them their position on abortion and I have gotten the whole gammut of answers from strongly pro-life to strongly pro-choice. Today, the issue came up for a 16-year-old girl that I am working with (the context is unimportant). I asked her what her position on abortion/choice was. This 16 year-old is an Asian given up for adoption right after birth and adopted by American parents. When I asked her, I knew this, but didn't anticipate her answer (though I probably should have). She looked at me strangely and said, "I'm totally against abortion." Still not seeing where she was heading, I asked, "Why?" Looking me squarely in the eye, she said, "My birth parents probably thought about having one. But if they had I wouldn't be here. I'm glad they didn't".

I have been tentatively pro-choice all my life, (which is why I don't post, often in the Abortion Forum) so the above isn't some sort of fundamental religious 'tale' that I have been spouting for years. This actually happened, today, to me. No joke, no rhetoric. Don't think it'll change my view, since in the womb, she would've had no concept of whether she 'wanted' to be alive or not, but this is a very nice, intelligent girl, whom I'm glad I've met. Made me think a bit about this whole issue in a little bit different way.

Any thoughts?

I believe that it is Pro-Lifers such as this girl who are the most difficult for Pro-Choicers to debate and defeat in public, because that pro-choicer would have to effectively look that person in the eye and say "your mother should retain the right to kill you on a whim before you are born".

 

[ngdawg]

I believe that it is Pro-Lifers such as this girl who are the most difficult for Pro-Choicers to debate and defeat in public, because that pro-choicer would have to effectively look that person in the eye and say "your mother should retain the right to kill you on a whim before you are born".

Nope. Man, the assumptions just run rampant with you people....
There are many adopted kids in my circle. They're very lucky to have loving parents. Period.
Perhaps that was YOUR thought as you allowed your impending children to be aborted...if so, you stand alone in that line of thinking.

 

[talloulou]

That girl was adopted because she was wanted.

Yeah from I can tell there are waiting lists of couples "wanting" babies.

 

[talloulou]

Nope. Man, the assumptions just run rampant with you people....
There are many adopted kids in my circle. They're very lucky to have loving parents. Period.
Perhaps that was YOUR thought as you allowed your impending children to be aborted...if so, you stand alone in that line of thinking.

So basically you want the "choice" to exist without anyone being allowed to put a magnifying glass to the consequences of the choice. Abortion is okay because the aborted are unwanted. The fact that many unwanted children find loving homes and the fact there are long waiting lists for healthy babies is not something you are willing to look at in discussing the abortion issue.

An adopted child who is thankful her biological mother didn't abort her is irrelevant? She, in your mind, doesn't have the right to bear witness and testament to the idea that she is the result of a better choice than killing?

How odd.

 

[ngdawg]

No more than I could bear witness to why it's more important to raise a child in faith or not.
We can be thankful for a lot of things, but you can't miss what you never had.
The only ones who should 'put a magnifying glass' on a choice are the ones making it. That's not your call nor mine.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Cases like this mean nothing more than any other case. If I posted a story about a teenager who looked me right in the eye and said, "I wish I had been aborted," would that convince anyone? Of course not.

The important point is, this young lady should be free to decide for herself how she feels about the issue, and I sincerely hope that her life takes a path that allows her to stand by her convictions.

And for those of you who think me heartless for saying her story doesn't matter, consider this: my father was an unwanted pregnancy, which led to a shotgun wedding and an incredibly unhappy marriage, and he was conceived in 1940. Had abortion been legal in that time and place, he would have been aborted, and I would not exist. And that would make me unhappy.

But were I able to allow my grandmother to choose not to bear that pregnancy to term, and thus not live her life as an alcoholic and die at an early age after halfway destroying the lives of her husband and all four of her children, I'd let her make the choice, even if it meant my destruction. MY happiness, my existence, was not worth her misery and death.

 

[rathi]

This is a major logical fallacy. Incredible tragedy can cause good situations and vice versa.


I wouldn't be alive if my great great great great great great grandmother hadn't been raped.

My best friend wouldn't be alive if his dad's first wife hadn't died a tragic and horrible death.

I couldn't live in America unless is previous inhabitants hadn't been wiped out.

Who knows how many potential serial killers and dictators have been aborted?

 

[talloulou]

This is a major logical fallacy. Incredible tragedy can cause good situations and vice versa.


I wouldn't be alive if my great great great great great great grandmother hadn't been raped.

My best friend wouldn't be alive if his dad's first wife hadn't died a tragic and horrible death.

I couldn't live in America unless is previous inhabitants hadn't been wiped out.

Who knows how many potential serial killers and dictators have been aborted?

Yeah and a butterfly can flap its wings and change of multitude of things. That's hardly the point. The point, the way I see it, is the woman was unwanted by her biological mother but thankful and appreciative of the fact that she wasn't aborted and that appreciation has made her anti-abortion. That alone says alot in my mind.

 

[SpooK]

Yeah and a butterfly can flap its wings and change of multitude of things. That's hardly the point. The point, the way I see it, is the woman was unwanted by her biological mother but thankful and appreciative of the fact that she wasn't aborted and that appreciation has made her anti-abortion. That alone says alot in my mind.

I concur with that.

 

[Gurkan]

If YOU got pregnant and were sure of that you couldn't take care of a child, Would you have wanted to have the abortion?

Probobly one of the hardest decisions in life, either live with the fact that you have killed a defenseless child, who you never even gave the chance for life. Or live with that you gave your own child away, surrendering on it, never being able to be there when he/she grows up.. etc.

I know i would have wanted the abortion, so i definitely couldn't ask anyone else not to. There isn't no right and wrong answer to this question, so you simply should have both options and decide from each case to case.

Bottom line, your chosing between the health of the baby or the health of the mother... suppose it's easier to ignore the baby, since it's never been born...

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Yeah and a butterfly can flap its wings and change of multitude of things. That's hardly the point. The point, the way I see it, is the woman was unwanted by her biological mother but thankful and appreciative of the fact that she wasn't aborted and that appreciation has made her anti-abortion. That alone says alot in my mind.

You got it right, I think, talloulou. This is the point of what I was trying to communicate. Knowing this girl and talking to her, her feelings echo your words; she is thankful that she wasn't aborted and her experience has made her anti-abortion and view the entire issue in a differnet way. I rarely debate this issue, as I can see and empathize with both sides, and don't completely even know where I stand. Discussing this with her, though, gave me a different perspective. For her, it's like having a different appreciation for life after coming close to death.

 

[talloulou]

There isn't no right and wrong answer to this question, so you simply should have both options and decide from each case to case.

Well the idea that there is no right and wrong when it comes to abortion is highly debatable and varies from person to person.

 

[CoffeeSaint]

Well the idea that there is no right and wrong when it comes to abortion is highly debatable and varies from person to person.

. . . which strongly implies that there is no right or wrong when it comes to abortion, and that the right choice varies from person to person. Hmm. Maybe people should be allowed to choose for themselves.

 

[talloulou]

. . . which strongly implies that there is no right or wrong when it comes to abortion, and that the right choice varies from person to person. Hmm. Maybe people should be allowed to choose for themselves.

Just because a bunch of people think something is right while a bunch others think it is wrong that in itself no way implies that there is no right or wrong in regards to the topic. It could possibly not matter either way with either choice being benign in nature or one of those sides could be extremely right while the other is extremely wrong.

 

[ngdawg]

You got it right, I think, talloulou. This is the point of what I was trying to communicate. Knowing this girl and talking to her, her feelings echo your words; she is thankful that she wasn't aborted and her experience has made her anti-abortion and view the entire issue in a differnet way. I rarely debate this issue, as I can see and empathize with both sides, and don't completely even know where I stand. Discussing this with her, though, gave me a different perspective. For her, it's like having a different appreciation for life after coming close to death.

To play devil's advocate: She would not know she was aborted had she been, so that point is moot. Thankful to be alive comes many ways; doctors saving a life or creating one, for instance. Perhaps coming so close to death that any residual after effects are inconsequential.
It was mentioned that the girl is Asian. In China, abortion is totally legal and, unfortunately, forced. It could be, if she is Chinese, the woman who bore her was hoping for a boy, had her instead and abandoned her. In South Korea, another country the US adopts heavily from, abortion is legal but with many restrictions, so again, the choice was not much of one. This is not to negate her existence at all; as an aunt of adopted children and one who attempted to adopt from South Korea, I know the desire and perserverence it takes to attain the goal of having a family through those means. Had she not been adopted here, her life would have been one of misery.
Being thankful for being given the opportunity to be wanted into a family of love is something everyone wants. The reality is, though, it is not a reality to way too many. And just like China can force abortions whether the woman wants it or not, to force someone to carry a pregnancy whether they want it or not is just as barbaric.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

To play devil's advocate: She would not know she was aborted had she been, so that point is moot.

True. And I acknowedged that in my OP. But having not been aborted, though significant possibility as it was, has made her consider the possibility of not existing for, possibly, the sole reason of being an inconvienence. Her story made me consider this in the context of the abortion issue. My stance, currently, remains the same (minimally pro-choice, though basically unsure).

It was mentioned that the girl is Asian. In China, abortion is totally legal and, unfortunately, forced. It could be, if she is Chinese, the woman who bore her was hoping for a boy, had her instead and abandoned her. In South Korea, another country the US adopts heavily from, abortion is legal but with many restrictions, so again, the choice was not much of one. This is not to negate her existence at all; as an aunt of adopted children and one who attempted to adopt from South Korea, I know the desire and perserverence it takes to attain the goal of having a family through those means. Had she not been adopted here, her life would have been one of misery.
Being thankful for being given the opportunity to be wanted into a family of love is something everyone wants. The reality is, though, it is not a reality to way too many. And just like China can force abortions whether the woman wants it or not, to force someone to carry a pregnancy whether they want it or not is just as barbaric.

Yes, she is from South Korea and all you say about abortion in that part of the world is true. And I don't believe that your (or anyone else's) position here is 'negating her existance'. As opposed to other abortion threads I've read, this one hasn't sunk to aggressive cooments by either side. This is a difficult issue with very little, if any, clear cut rights and wrongs. I think many of us (though not all) debate it with knowedge only about the topic. The interesting thing about this girl's story to me was that it gave a more personal perspective from one not making the decision, but from one whom the decision was made about.

 

[tecoyah]

If someone does something to you that harms you but you didn't know they did it, that it was "done to you" does that mean you weren't harmed?

Yes.....thats exactly what it means....reality is in perception, and the use of senses to evaluate existance. If you are unaware of something....for all intent and purpose it does not exist.

I just accidentally ran over the Cat you thought ran away three years ago, but if I didnt tell you......would you know or care?

 

[ngdawg]

True. And I acknowedged that in my OP. But having not been aborted, though significant possibility as it was, has made her consider the possibility of not existing for, possibly, the sole reason of being an inconvienence. Her story made me consider this in the context of the abortion issue. My stance, currently, remains the same (minimally pro-choice, though basically unsure).



Yes, she is from South Korea and all you say about abortion in that part of the world is true. And I don't believe that your (or anyone else's) position here is 'negating her existance'. As opposed to other abortion threads I've read, this one hasn't sunk to aggressive cooments by either side. This is a difficult issue with very little, if any, clear cut rights and wrongs. I think many of us (though not all) debate it with knowedge only about the topic. The interesting thing about this girl's story to me was that it gave a more personal perspective from one not making the decision, but from one whom the decision was made about.

Which is, I suppose, the crux of all of our existences as individuals. To give a same/different perspective-my kids are 'lab babies' that took 10 years of my perserverence and the evolution of science to accomplish. They are two of 15 possibilities( the number of eggs extracted) and 10 attempts(the number fertilized). I'm certain my kids are thankful for their existence and success in coming into the world. I am also certain they do not 'miss' their potential 8 brothers and/or sisters.
As someone who was 'tried' for for 4 years, then having to go through 10 years of my own hell for the same reason, I can appreciate the girl's feelings.
I also think it's generally a universal feeling of those who are fortunate enough to live a decent life surrounded by love and appreciation. And I daresay there are probably those who, even with the most miserable existence we could imagine, would have the same feelings, if for no other reason than a fervent feeling of hope.