An electric car won’t save you money

[longview]

The choices are live in modernity or return to the dark ages.

How much are you willing to give up for the planet?

I believe there is a path forward that does not require fossil fuels or returning to the dark ages.
Hydrocarbon energy storage, would let wind and solar become viable energy sources,
because it would store the seasonal surpluses, as transport fuels.
When I look at my electricity use through the year, Nov through April, is more than half the Summer peak.
A system designed to cover most of the Summer peak, would generate quite a bit of surplus during the low period (Houston, Tx).
Without energy storage, the electricity not in demand at the moment of generation, would be wasted.
I know the Naval Research Labs, found that storage efficiency is only about 60%, but compared to a 100% loss
that is a good thing. The real elegance, is that any country on Earth with a source of energy, can produce their
own carbon neutral fuels. Cars are a minor consideration, Tractors, Trucks, Trains, and Ships, are what matter for our food supply.

 

[longview]

Wind is subsidized 18 dollars per kilowatt solar is subsidized 86 dollars per kilowatt.

People love to say fossil fuels are subsidized too and that's correct. 39 cents a kilowatt

Even with the deck stacked to an exponential level it's not enough.

I think if you dig into the subsidies for fossil fuels, they are talking about tax deductions for business expenses.
People who do that kind of accounting (counting a business expense deduction as a subsidy),
likely got the other two wrong also.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Shows what you know. There is a glut of electric power in California currently. You keep acting like you can make this all go away. It's not going away. EV's will be the only cars sold in a decade and you can whine all you want and it won't change a thing. There will be far more charging stations than gas stations by then too.

California has glut of electricity but residents still pay 40% more than national average​

Reduced energy demand and a glut of power have created a situation where Californians are paying more for their electricity than they should be, according to a report.
The Golden State “has a big — and growing — glut of power,” an investigation by the L.A. Times reported Sunday. The paper said by 2020 California could generate “at least 21 percent more electricity than it needs” — and that’s excluding power from rooftop solar sources.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/06/cal...residents-pay-more-than-national-average.html

Those figures are peak production when sun is shining and wind is blowing. Here’s real world info.

All of West and much of Midwest at risk of summer blackouts, regulator warns

Electricity customers across the country face a heightened risk of power outages this summer, something regulators say reflects a worsening outlook for a grid simultaneously struggling through extreme weather conditions and a shift away from traditional energy sources.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

 

[Lord of Planar]

Those figures are peak production when sun is shining and wind is blowing. Here’s real world info.

All of West and much of Midwest at risk of summer blackouts, regulator warns

Electricity customers across the country face a heightened risk of power outages this summer, something regulators say reflects a worsening outlook for a grid simultaneously struggling through extreme weather conditions and a shift away from traditional energy sources.

www.washingtonexaminer.com

That report is in error.

Oregon and Washington with the vast hydropower we produce don't have such concerns.

I think if you dig into the subsidies for fossil fuels, they are talking about tax deductions for business expenses.
People who do that kind of accounting (counting a business expense deduction as a subsidy),
likely got the other two wrong also.

This is so true.

Over the years, people with agendas have somehow managed to homogenize the meanings of words. They start misusing words out of agenda to lie to the public, but then the way dictionaries work, they change the definitions with the misuse when it becomes common.

Energy companies are not subsidized when using the previous definition. But now the term even applies to tax breaks and unrealized profits.

By the new definition of the word subsidy, there probably isn't a business or person alive that isn't subsidized.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

That report is in error.

Oregon and Washington with the vast hydropower we produce don't have such concerns.

This is so true.

Over the years, people with agendas have somehow managed to homogenize the meanings of words. They start misusing words out of agenda to lie to the public, but then the way dictionaries work, they change the definitions with the misuse when it becomes common.

Energy companies are not subsidized when using the previous definition. But now the term even applies to tax breaks and unrealized profits.

By the new definition of the word subsidy, there probably isn't a business or person alive that isn't subsidized.

Oregon and Washington are unique in that with tremendous amounts of hydropower. In states becoming more and more dependent on so called green energy, electricity production fluctuation is a huge problem. And for anyone wondering hydropower is far from green unless carbon production is your only metric.

 

[Integrityrespec]

I think you may be deceiving yourself on the safety issue, but whatever makes you feel good!
I think battery electric cars are fine for some people who are willing to accept their current limitations, and likely will save them some money.

Very limited, range and cost make them not something I'd ever purchase.

 

[longview]

Very limited, range and cost make them not something I'd ever purchase.

Agreed, if they could for example make a small runabout that was under $10K it would be useful,
but not as the primary vehicle.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Oregon and Washington are unique in that with tremendous amounts of hydropower. In states becoming more and more dependent on so called green energy, electricity production fluctuation is a huge problem. And for anyone wondering hydropower is far from green unless carbon production is your only metric.

I disagree that the dams on the Columbia river are "far from green" I agree they impact the environment, but not in any detrimental was.

Every thing we do impacts the environment. All cities have a dramatic effect on the environment. Far more than well build hydropower that have been build to keep the fish in mind.

The biggest negative impact Bonneville Dan had was a few years back when sea lions found the fish ladders a great spot to sit and get fat.

There were dams on the Snake River, that didn't have such things in mind. There was talk of removing them. I don;t know if that ever took place.

Outside of power production, these dams hold water for irrigation on demand and more important yet.... Flood control.

If you wish to have zero impact on the environment, I suggest you go back in time to the stone ages.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

I disagree that the dams on the Columbia river are "far from green" I agree they impact the environment, but not in any detrimental was.

Every thing we do impacts the environment. All cities have a dramatic effect on the environment. Far more than well build hydropower that have been build to keep the fish in mind.

The biggest negative impact Bonneville Dan had was a few years back when sea lions found the fish ladders a great spot to sit and get fat.

There were dams on the Snake River, that didn't have such things in mind. There was talk of removing them. I don;t know if that ever took place.

Outside of power production, these dams hold water for irrigation on demand and more important yet.... Flood control.

If you wish to have zero impact on the environment, I suggest you go back in time to the stone ages.

I have no desire to nuke the Columbia river dams. They have become absolutely necessary to produce electricity, transport goods, water farmland and control flooding. They are not "green" though and have drastically altered and degraded the healthy vibrant life sustaining ecosystem of a free flowing river.

No free lunch

 

[Integrityrespec]

2022 Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup Debuts, 300-Mile Range, Priced At $40k

The new 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Pickup is an EV workhorse with 300 miles of range.

www.forbes.com

High cost for anything but basic model, low range, high cost of replacement battery, charging cost. It's not a good deal if you drive very much.

 

[Integrityrespec]

Wind is subsidized 18 dollars per kilowatt solar is subsidized 86 dollars per kilowatt.

People love to say fossil fuels are subsidized too and that's correct. 39 cents a kilowatt

Even with the deck stacked to an exponential level it's not enough.

What I don't understand is why republican politicians aren't shouting these numbers to the high heavens every day. I can't vote democrat because of a bunch of policies that I'm very opposed too but I have problems with how the republicans seem to let lots of things slide and that give me concern.

 

[iguanaman]

Shows what you know. There is a glut of electric power in California currently. You keep acting like you can make this all go away. It's not going away. EV's will be the only cars sold in a decade and you can whine all you want and it won't change a thing. There will be far more charging stations than gas stations by then too.

California has glut of electricity but residents still pay 40% more than national average​

Reduced energy demand and a glut of power have created a situation where Californians are paying more for their electricity than they should be, according to a report.
The Golden State “has a big — and growing — glut of power,” an investigation by the L.A. Times reported Sunday. The paper said by 2020 California could generate “at least 21 percent more electricity than it needs” — and that’s excluding power from rooftop solar sources.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/06/cal...residents-pay-more-than-national-average.html

You need to get with the program and start using solar in Texas. There is a so much of solar generated energy in California now that they need to curtail production. I can see you are going the kicking and screaming route and that is going to be painful...Try to chill a bit.

Curtailments of solar-powered electricity generation have increased in the California Independent System Operator (CAISO) region, the part of the electric grid that covers most of the state. In 2020, CAISO curtailed 1.5 million megawatthours of utility-scale solar, or 5% of its utility-scale solar production.

Grid operators curtail electricity production from solar and wind generators when supply exceeds demand. In 2020, solar curtailments accounted for 94% of the total energy curtailed in CAISO. Solar curtailments tend to be greater in the spring months when electricity demand is relatively low (because of moderate temperatures decreasing heating and cooling demand) and solar output is relatively high. In the early afternoon hours of March 2021, CAISO curtailed an average of 15% of its utility-scale solar output.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=49276

 

[iguanaman]

2022 Ford F-150 Lightning EV Pickup Debuts, 300-Mile Range, Priced At $40k

The new 2022 Ford F-150 Lightning Pickup is an EV workhorse with 300 miles of range.

www.forbes.com

High cost for anything but basic model, low range, high cost of replacement battery, charging cost. It's not a good deal if you drive very much.

Low maintenance costs... no more oil changes. 300 mile range and fast chargers that reach 80% charge in 30 minutes and the battery will last at least 200,000 miles. What is not to like?

 

[iguanaman]

Very limited, range and cost make them not something I'd ever purchase.

So you are posting from your car on the highway now. If not you better get moving. Going over 300 miles means you drive 8 hours a day. What a drag. Also I hope you like tinkering with old cars since new EV's will be your only choice in a decade or so. And good luck finding fuel, gasoline will get rare and very pricey.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Low maintenance costs... no more oil changes. 300 mile range and fast chargers that reach 80% charge in 30 minutes and the battery will last at least 200,000 miles. What is not to like?

Where do you get the 30 minutes from?

Larger batter... Your link says otherwise.

 

[iguanaman]

Where do you get the 30 minutes from?

Larger batter... Your link says otherwise.

Here Are 12 of the Fastest Charging Electric Vehicles You Can Buy Today​

https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-12-fastest-charging-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-today-1670936

 

[Lord of Planar]

Here Are 12 of the Fastest Charging Electric Vehicles You Can Buy Today​

https://www.newsweek.com/here-are-12-fastest-charging-electric-vehicles-you-can-buy-today-1670936

I was referring to the F150 link you provide. Outside of that, show me a US charger that will charge any of them that quick.

 

[iguanaman]

I was referring to the F150 link you provide. Outside of that, show me a US charger that will charge any of them that quick.

I did not supply that link but my link did show at least 12 EV's capable of fast charging in under a hour including Ford's own Mach E. Range is no longer a problem even for cross country trips. Most people need to stop to eat after 300 mile drives don't they? You are running out of excuses.

 

[Bear5131]

Low maintenance costs... no more oil changes. 300 mile range and fast chargers that reach 80% charge in 30 minutes and the battery will last at least 200,000 miles. What is not to like?

And only 40 grand

 

[iguanaman]

And only 40 grand

That's cheap for a pick-up now. Most gas powered ones are 50 grand or more and you get a rust proof aluminum body with a Ford too.

We saw truck prices go up last year, making the average cost of a new pickup truck in 2021 $41,105. That jump in price represents more than a 7 percent increase in one year.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-much-should-spend-full-size-pickup-truck/#:~:text=We saw truck prices go,percent increase in one year.

 

[Bear5131]

That's cheap for a pick-up now. Most gas powered ones are 50 grand or more.

Exactly I want one out of all the cars and pickups I have had my 2007 F150 was the best drove like my mustang, outside my 1994 Nissan sentry I paid only a grand for I couldn't kill it if I wanted to just change the oil

 

[iguanaman]

Exactly I want one out of all the cars and pickups I have had my 2007 F150 was the best drove like my mustang, outside my 1994 Nissan sentry I paid only a grand for I couldn't kill it if I wanted to just change the oil

Congrats on your choices. I am still driving my 1995 Aerostar and love my 2012 Mustang to death. 305 horsepower and 31 MPG highway is a nce combo. I expect a Mach E is in my future too.

 

[CLAX1911]

I believe there is a path forward that does not require fossil fuels or returning to the dark ages.
Hydrocarbon energy storage, would let wind and solar become viable energy sources,
because it would store the seasonal surpluses, as transport fuels.

order to store surplus you have to have surplus there is no surplus of wind and solar energy. In fact all renewables put together don't even make 20% of the energy we use.

When I look at my electricity use through the year, Nov through April, is more than half the Summer peak.
A system designed to cover most of the Summer peak, would generate quite a bit of surplus during the low period (Houston, Tx).

you can't generate a surplus if you use every bit of it and then 80% more.

Without energy storage, the electricity not in demand at the moment of generation, would be wasted.

that doesn't happen

I know the Naval Research Labs, found that storage efficiency is only about 60%, but compared to a 100% loss
that is a good thing. The real elegance, is that any country on Earth with a source of energy, can produce their
own carbon neutral fuels. Cars are a minor consideration, Tractors, Trucks, Trains, and Ships, are what matter for our food supply.

I'm not against the idea of using storage batteries but we don't produce that much energy we use pretty much every bit of it we produce.

We would probably have to build more coal or fossil fuel fired power plants to charge up those batteries

 

[CLAX1911]

I think if you dig into the subsidies for fossil fuels, they are talking about tax deductions for business expenses.
People who do that kind of accounting (counting a business expense deduction as a subsidy),
likely got the other two wrong also.

I was going by something I read and they called it a subsidy but it doesn't matter wind and solar get such a tax break or subsidy or whatever and they still fail. We're talking just over 12% of our energy produced from these sources.

 

[CLAX1911]

What I don't understand is why republican politicians aren't shouting these numbers to the high heavens every day. I can't vote democrat because of a bunch of policies that I'm very opposed too but I have problems with how the republicans seem to let lots of things slide and that give me concern.

Because Republicans aren't your friends if they can get some kickbacks from this they're going to.