An attempt at common ground [W:333]

Jerry said:

I particularly enjoy when pro-choice calls the ZEF both a "clump of cells" and a "parasite" in the same post, if not in the same sentence. It cannot be both an organism and a compacted mass at the same time. One or the other.

Of course those statements are not made with the intention of being technically accurate, but instead to divorce humanity from the ZEF so as to make it easier to kill.

Click to expand...

Generally, pro-life goes to great lengths to try to "humanize" a ZEF and pro-choice does the opposite, yes.

joko104 said:

Generally, pro-life goes to great lengths to try to "humanize" a ZEF and pro-choice does the opposite, yes.

Click to expand...

And where IVF leftovers are concerned......all of a sudden they are not babies.

Jerry said:

Of course those statements are not made with the intention of being technically accurate, but instead to divorce humanity from the ZEF so as to make it easier to kill.

Click to expand...

Those statements would be somewhat accurate and even if the ''ZEF'' was to be strip of it's ''humanity'' it could still be a person with the right to life depending on your definition of person

Fisher said:

Feed them to Specklebang. It is not, however, something I would compromise on. If people did not have an easy out, they would actually have to make a decision to keep their legs closed or live with the consequences, so I would expect you to see fewer pregnancies among the "Let's food process a human being" crowd.

Click to expand...

So your true reason for opposing abortion is that criminalizing abortion will result in less pre-marital, extra-marital, or perhaps even marital sex. Allow me to point out that in all of human history that has not worked. Abortion has been a part of life and death for thousands of years.

OKgrannie said:

So your true reason for opposing abortion is that criminalizing abortion will result in less pre-marital, extra-marital, or perhaps even marital sex. Allow me to point out that in all of human history that has not worked. Abortion has been a part of life and death for thousands of years.

Click to expand...

No kidding. Even when it is illegal it is done. A lot.

I do find it funny that it is all about the "woman keeping her legs closed". Do they understand that a man is involved in the process?:shock:

OKgrannie said:

So your true reason for opposing abortion is that criminalizing abortion will result in less pre-marital, extra-marital, or perhaps even marital sex. Allow me to point out that in all of human history that has not worked. Abortion has been a part of life and death for thousands of years.

Click to expand...

No, I oppose abortion because it is killing a baby. I could give a rat's ass if someone wants to be the world's biggest slut just so they are not killing babies in the process.

year2late said:

And where IVF leftovers are concerned......all of a sudden they are not babies.

Click to expand...

Calling one cell humans ''babies'' is too extreme in my opinion anyway

GEIxBattleRifle said:

Calling one cell humans ''babies'' is too extreme in my opinion anyway

Click to expand...

The blastocysts are more than one cell.

But realistically my point is aimed at those who believe non implanted blastocyst is a full fledged baby and a full fledged pregnancy. They lay oddly silent as countless numbers are tossed out with IVF. The same people who go all after Sanger and her statements of eugenics from the 1920....lay oddly silent when EUGENICS IN PRACTICE are performed in IVF clinics - I would think they would be crying "genocide of the handicapped".

Fisher said:

No, I oppose abortion because it is killing a baby. I could give a rat's ass if someone wants to be the world's biggest slut just so they are not killing babies in the process.

Click to expand...

Isn't it funny how it is always about the "slut" and the guy is left out of that picture.

It is like you think the slut is capable of immaculate conception.

Jerry said:

I particularly enjoy when pro-choice calls the ZEF both a "clump of cells" and a "parasite" in the same post, if not in the same sentence. It cannot be both an organism and a compacted mass at the same time. One or the other.

Of course those statements are not made with the intention of being technically accurate, but instead to divorce humanity from the ZEF so as to make it easier to kill.

Click to expand...

??? I have never called the ZEF "a clump of cells." Where do you get this stuff?

I also point out that a zygote or morula or pre-implantation blastocyst cannot correctly be termed a "parasite" on an objective basis because, even though the blastocyst does take nutrients from loose blood sources in the uterus, it could just as easily live outside of the woman's body because it is not biologically attached to her bodily tissue. In fact, it is only from implantation that one can argue that the blastocyst/embryo has a parasitic mode of biological life.

I do understand the argument that a zygote is not an organism, but I do not have a PhD in human biology or zoology. Hence, I do not consider myself a suitable specialist for the specialized scientific debate over whether it is an organism or not (because I do have two graduate degrees and therefore at least some modest respect for specialized professional competence, I think this specialized point of debate should be decided by professional specialists).

At the same time, I do make a distinction between a biological entity with the internal capacity for going through organogenesis without being biologically attached to a biological entity that has already gone through organogenesis and one without that capacity. A human blastocyst, like any mammalian blastocyst, does not have that capacity, whereas the chicken embryo inside its shell has that capacity. I also make a distinction between a biological entity that constitutes an organismic body with specialized organs, i.e., one that has gone through organogenesis, and a biological entity that does not constitute such a body. Mammalian blastocysts do not constitute such bodies.

These are among the many distinctions I make with every intention of being technically accurate.

A human zygote is a human zygote, not a human embryo. A human blastocyst is a human blastocyst and is technically not a human embryo until it begins to implant. A human embryo is a human embryo and not a human fetus. To say a human fetus is not a human is to say that, as long as it continues to be biologically attached to and biologically dependent for life on the body of a human not so biologically attached and dependent on the body of another human, it is not a separate human. That is technically accurate, because merely having unique human DNA is not a sufficient criterion for being a unique human in my book (and the books of many scientists).

To say this does not divorce a human zygote, blastocyst, embryo, or fetus from the species of Homo s. sapiens, but yes, it does divorce all of them from humanity, which is not a scientific term but a philosophical one.

This does not make a zygote, embryo, or fetus "easier to kill." Rather, it is a recognition that they are not human persons because, to be a person, you have to have certain qualities. For me, the minimum qualities are these: you can take in oxygen and nutrients for the functioning of your organism from common sources in the world external to your organism rather than taking away the biological oxygen and nutrients already taken in by another of your species for its organism. Even a conjoined twin that is not a parasitic twin can do that.

I'm frankly tired of conservative anti-abortion people misrepresenting what I say when they aim to insult or demean me. I can make a good case for abortion being legal even if one accepts for the purpose of philosophical experiment the hypothesis that a zygote is a completely developed adult human person, on the grounds of laws against rape, sexual assault, and robbery and laws allowing the use of lethal force in self-defense against those specific crimes.

choiceone said:

I have never called the ZEF "a clump of cells."

Click to expand...

I never said *you* did.

I said pro-choice does, and Excon did so just a couple days ago.

Jerry said:

I never said *you* did.

I said pro-choice does, and Excon did so just a couple days ago.

Click to expand...

I've called a ZEF a clump of cells, but then I've referred to myself as a clump of cells as well, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

~the clump of cells

Whereas I would never call an embryo or a fetus "EF" a clump of cells, realistically earlier stages - well....you be the judge.....



Some stages "clump of cells" is hardly inaccurate.

iangb said:

I've called a ZEF a clump of cells, but then I've referred to myself as a clump of cells as well, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

~the clump of cells

Click to expand...

A clump is a compressed mass. A ZEF is never a clump because it's never compressed. A ZEF is more like a blob than a clump in that it's wet and viscous.

year2late said:

Whereas I would never call an embryo or a fetus "EF" a clump of cells, realistically earlier stages - well....you be the judge.....

View attachment 67154189

Some stages "clump of cells" is hardly inaccurate.

Click to expand...

There's the problem: "at some stages". ZEF refers to all pre-birth stages, not just the few you have in mind at that moment. So when you say a ZEF is just a clump of cells you are calling the infant who is on the virge of being born in 5 minutes a clump of cells. That's dishonesty on your part, and is why some pro-life then begin to post pictures.

Jerry said:

A clump is a compressed mass. A ZEF is never a clump because it's never compressed. A ZEF is more like a blob than a clump in that it's wet and viscous.

Click to expand...

Actually websters dictionary chimed in....

Full Definition of CLUMP


1

: a group of things clustered together


2

: a compact mass


3

: a heavy tramping sound

Click to expand...

year2late said:

Whereas I would never call an embryo or a fetus "EF" a clump of cells, realistically earlier stages - well....you be the judge.....

View attachment 67154189

Some stages "clump of cells" is hardly inaccurate.

Click to expand...

Jerry said:

There's the problem: "at some stages". ZEF refers to all pre-birth stages, not just the few you have in mind at that moment. So when you say a ZEF is just a clump of cells you are calling the infant who is on the virge of being born in 5 minutes a clump of cells. That's dishonesty on your part, and is why some pro-life then begin to post pictures.

Click to expand...

Actually, I do not use the term "ZEF" except to reference the wadded panties over the discussion of the term.:2razz:

No dishonesty, I clearly pointed out in very early stages that "clump of cells" is hardly inaccurate

But like I said, in most of the normal abortion discussions I never use the term ZEF. I say "fetus" or "embryo" or "blastocyst" etc.

year2late said:

Actually, I do not use the term "ZEF" except to reference the wadded panties over the discussion of the term.:2razz:

No dishonesty, I clearly pointed out in very early stages that "clump of cells" is hardly inaccurate

But like I said, in most of the normal abortion discussions I never use the term ZEF. I say "fetus" or "embryo" or "blastocyst" etc.

Click to expand...

See I don't even know what that is. But that's my point, I don't care. That's why I use "ZEF". What the different stages are doesn't matter. It's all a person, non of it should be aborted unless it becomes a threat.

Jerry said:

See I don't even know what that is. But that's my point, I don't care. That's why I use "ZEF". What the different stages are doesn't matter. It's all a person, non of it should be aborted unless it becomes a threat.

Click to expand...

How do you know when the mothers life is in danger.

I keep bringing up my situation. I was a low risk pregnancy. I ended up spilling protein and hypetensive and heading into pre-eclampsia. My OB told me I could be endangering my life if I kept working. I also ended up needing surgery to deliver ....didn't go as well as expected and I needed urgent general anesthesia.

Now, I had the resources to be off work (ok our credit cards were given a full workout) We managed through time off, deductibles, copays, and...well...everything.
I had an understanding employer as well.

Now, let us say I was paycheck to paycheck and had either crappy health insurance or none. They might not have caught my condition early enough. Even if they DID catch it I might have had to keep working (or go homeless). Hell, what if I had other kids at home. I could have died and left them without a mom!

I will not pretend to know everyone's individual situations.....I just know mine was better than many because I was well resourced.

year2late said:

How do you know when the mothers life is in danger.

Click to expand...

Well there are these people called "doctors"....

year2late said:

How do you know when the mothers life is in danger.

I keep bringing up my situation. I was a low risk pregnancy. I ended up spilling protein and hypetensive and heading into pre-eclampsia. My OB told me I could be endangering my life if I kept working. I also ended up needing surgery to deliver ....didn't go as well as expected and I needed urgent general anesthesia.

Now, I had the resources to be off work (ok our credit cards were given a full workout) We managed through time off, deductibles, copays, and...well...everything.
I had an understanding employer as well.

Now, let us say I was paycheck to paycheck and had either crappy health insurance or none. They might not have caught my condition early enough. Even if they DID catch it I might have had to keep working (or go homeless). Hell, what if I had other kids at home. I could have died and left them without a mom!

I will not pretend to know everyone's individual situations.....I just know mine was better than many because I was well resourced.

Click to expand...

I had to give a child up for adoption because I was in a similer situation, so I really don't want to keep hearing about your problems. **** happens to everyone.

Jerry said:

Well there are these people called "doctors"....

Click to expand...

Assuming you have adequate medical coverage and you catch the problem in time to be reversed and you also assume the mother has the resources to follow doctors recommendations............

I had great coverage and fantastic availability of OB and specialists. Is it your assumption that this is every woman's situation?

Jerry said:

I had to give a child up for adoption because I was in a similer situation, so I really don't want to keep hearing about your problems. **** happens to everyone.

Click to expand...

And everyone has the right to chose how they accept risk to their own body.

year2late said:

And everyone has the right to chose how they accept risk to their own body.

Click to expand...

Their own body, not their unborn child's body.

Jerry said:

Their own body, not their unborn child's body.

Click to expand...

Up to the point of viability, yes, they do have the right to decise what happens with their pregnancy.