An attempt at common ground [W:333]

[Jerry]

I have yet to hear a single practical idea that rectifies the problems that come with abortion.

I don't believe that for a second. Everyone on all sides of the issues says the best solution is to not have the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. We disagree on how to manifest that, but that is the shared solution.

 

[Jerry]

Because people do not have the right to decide what medical procedures other people can and can't have (except for safety reasons)

Should smokers be prohibited from receiving treatment for lung cancer? Football players from knee surgery?

How does abortion help the child like a knee surgery?

 

[Jerry]

Oh, get over yourself, Joko. Killing the unborn because they might end up in the system is a pathetic rationale.

I think we should apply Joko's logic to the problem of illegal immigration: kill them so they don't end up in the system.

 

[sangha]

How does abortion help the child like a knee surgery?

Knee surgery doesn't help the unborn either

 

[joko104]

Oh, get over yourself, Joko. Killing the unborn because they might end up in the system is a pathetic rationale.

You don't have any plan or solution to 30,000,000 unwanted children that would have been born, and over a million more each year, do you? Total fantasy on your part.

Reducing children after birth to absolutely NOTHING is what is "pathetic rationale." If you really gave a damn about "children," you would have some plan for the ever increasing massive numbers of unwanted and dumped children by the 10s of millions.

Your annecdotals of a couple people you claim to have known is nothing whatsoever. You need at least 5,000,000 examples to have a point - and that would represent only 1/6th of how many there would have been.

I have known MANY children put into foster care and adopted. Very many. They were were abused, assaulted and brutalized in every way. Many were killed or died in this. Of those not, most became horrifically violent, dangerous, anti-social, psychotic and criminal minded amoral or immoral adults who patterned after their abusers.

So much for annecdotals.

If you have a plan to deal with 1,000,000+ MORE unwanted children per year, tell what it is. And how you would pay for it.

 

[Jerry]

Knee surgery doesn't help the unborn either

Then I don't know why you brought it up.

 

[sangha]

Then I don't know why you brought it up.

Am I supposed to be surprised?

 

[joko104]

I think we should apply Joko's logic to the problem of illegal immigration: kill them so they don't end up in the system.

Instead, your plan which is to totally ban deporting anyone ever. OK, we got it Jerry, you favor totally open borders. Anyone who wants to come here from anywhere in the world. AND they get to live in your house whether you like it or not too. They get to take your money too. That is how your example works for your view.

Actually, what you really wrote in your message is you absolutely have no plan either - which means not giving a damn about children after birth.

 

[joko104]

Pro-lifers NEVER have any plan for what to do with ever increasing numbers of unwanted and abandoned children by the growing millions...

SO, as always, whenever the question comes up about what is their plan? Jerry, Nota and all the rest just scream "IT'S KILLING THE UNBORN! IT'S KILLING THE UNBORN!" - as an attempted diversion to try to hide that they absolutely have NO plan WHATSOEVER and absolutely do not care in the slightest about children once born.

 

[Jerry]

Instead, your plan which is to totally ban deporting anyone ever.

...can't wait to see you quote me ever saying that.

My solution to illegal immigration is to impose devastating criminal penalties on businesses who hire even one illegal. They deport themselves.

 

[nota bene]

I think we should apply Joko's logic to the problem of illegal immigration: kill them so they don't end up in the system.

Well, why not there? We all know that the kids of single parents often have problems, so why not kill those kids too? And their single parents as well? And the children of pedophiles and other criminals? Maybe they inherited bad genes? I mean, you never know, do you?

 

[joko104]

And here in a nutshell is the ENTIRE problem with pro-lifers. Notice immediately that somehow all the responsibility for a pregnancy is a woman's as opposed to the "people" he types (ie "keep their legs closed" is clearly pointing at women tho men are often responsible for getting a woman pregnant without her permission to do so), and then fails to even offer anything akin to pre-pregnancy birth control, just "keep those legs crossed women",... It's all our faults, but tho men can get insurance covered penis pills in order to get women pregnant, until just recently women couldn't get the pills required to not get pregnant.

It's far worse than that. On other threads, male so-called prolifers furiously claim they should have a legal right to try to extort and force a woman to have an abortion - as their way out of any parental responsibilities whatsoever. If an unwanted pregnancy would hit THEIR male pocketbook, they are not only "pro-choice," they are "pro-forced-abortions."

The ultimate hypocrites - at best and actually it's worse.

 

[Jerry]

Pro-lifers NEVER have any plan for what to do with ever increasing numbers of unwanted and abandoned children by the growing millions...

SO, as always, whenever the question comes up about what is their plan? Jerry, Nota and all the rest just scream "IT'S KILLING THE UNBORN! IT'S KILLING THE UNBORN!" - as an attempted diversion to try to hide that they absolutely have NO plan WHATSOEVER and absolutely do not care in the slightest about children once born.

Are you accusing me of being a pro-lifer?

Yes, I have a plan for what to do with all those children: They get raised by their parents. Problem = solved.

 

[joko104]

Well, why not there? We all know that the kids of single parents often have problems, so why not kill those kids too? And their single parents as well? And the children of pedophiles and other criminals? Maybe they inherited bad genes? I mean, you never know, do you?

The more you rage your diversion, the more you really scream you don't care about children in the slightest. How moral are you?

 

[joko104]

Are you accusing me of being a pro-lifer?

Yes, I have a plan for what to do with all those children: They get raised by their parents. Problem = solved.

OK, so you want 50,000,000 more prison cells? And you still have the problem of what to do with the children.

 

[Jerry]

OK, so you want 50,000,000 more prison cells? And you still have the problem of what to do with the children.

What does prison have to do with anything?

 

[opendebate]

I would like to see it drop. I have two minds on this because on one hand I don't like it because I value human life at all stages. It's not based on any science, it's the way I'm wired. On the other hand, it solves a lot of problems, and it is extremely unrealistic to end it. My thinking in the OP is that if medical science gets to a point where the only way to have an unwanted pregnancy is because you didn't try to avoid it then why should you be able to terminate that pregnancy?

The same question would still remain though. Probably not in the same numbers but it would remain. Abortion is a tough issue, as you are clearly aware. No one likes the idea of keeping a live from evolving. Sometimes however, you are forced to chose between the lessor of two evils.

We are passionate creatures by nature, IMO,(young people especially) if you make a mistake and surrender to your passions in the moment (which lets face it we all have) and have the misfortune of becoming pregnant because of it, the impact on your life is tremendous. It is in fact, life altering. So aside from the fact that a medical procedure is necessary and a woman really should make that decision on her own, the matter of how it impacts her life is also relevant and deserves attention. I don't see the value of requiring that she give up her life for that mistake.

On a side note, as long as you have parents unwilling to accept the reality that their little angles are sex crazed animals so they don't allow them access to birth control, we will have kids faced with this dilemma. Kids who are in no position to not only raise kids but even deal with pregnancy.

 

[joko104]

What does prison have to do with anything?

What is your plan for the 15 year old who WON'T parent a child she gives birth to, or the 16 year old who made her pregnant? Or any other woman or man?

 

[Jerry]

What is your plan for the 15 year old who WON'T parent a child she gives birth to, or the 16 year old who made her pregnant? Or any other woman or man?

Adoption.

There is a huge demand for newborns. There are far more couples waiting to adopt then there are children to be adopted. If you don't want your baby, let's do some paperwork and set up an adopting couple. By law the mother's pregnancy related medical bills are covered, as is her food, rent, travel, and a modest allowance. Certain scholarships also exist for parents adopting out their child. I know, I adopted out 2 children. Been there, don that.

 

[Linc]

As a retired teacher in a very Catholic town, I saw what I thought was everything.
I have always advocated and supported adoption.
Having an adoptive family adopt the pregnant girl, like a nanny, who could be assured of pre-natal care is my option for girls in bad situations.
We have teachers who did adopt and were right there when the baby was born.
The girl chose them after many interviews.
I am a man. It is not my body. I struggle with abortion like no other issue.
Pro-life would say it's not an issue, it's a baby.
The greatest physicists and chemists in history lived after the civil war and before World War Two.
I can't help thinking we've lost some of them and more since 1973.

The same question would still remain though. Probably not in the same numbers but it would remain. Abortion is a tough issue, as you are clearly aware. No one likes the idea of keeping a live from evolving. Sometimes however, you are forced to chose between the lessor of two evils.

We are passionate creatures by nature, IMO,(young people especially) if you make a mistake and surrender to your passions in the moment (which lets face it we all have) and have the misfortune of becoming pregnant because of it, the impact on your life is tremendous. It is in fact, life altering. So aside from the fact that a medical procedure is necessary and a woman really should make that decision on her own, the matter of how it impacts her life is also relevant and deserves attention. I don't see the value of requiring that she give up her life for that mistake.

On a side note, as long as you have parents unwilling to accept the reality that their little angles are sex crazed animals so they don't allow them access to birth control, we will have kids faced with this dilemma. Kids who are in no position to not only raise kids but even deal with pregnancy.

 

[AGENT J]

I have yet to hear a single practical idea that rectifies the problems that come with abortion. In fact, I have presented idea's for it that simply wouldn't work. Unfortunately current methods of birth control are not 100% effective, and we simply don't have the resources to help parents who otherwise couldn't support a family, but if we did have the means to help these families as well as a 100% effective birth control would anyone in the pro choice crowd reconsider the right to that choice? If you don't like hypotheticals this isn't the thread for you.

well my over all ideas havent changed, they need tweeked but the basics are the same.

This is what I would do

First off whether you are for or against I don’t know anybody that thinks abortion is a great thing or pleasant. Most feel its reality and something that has to be. If I could eliminate the need for abortions I would, if I could just make it so they were never needed I would but that’s not reality.

Anyway the foundation of abortion is about two lives, TWO. That’s the foundation.

Now right after that fact is established the other facts come into play. Unfortunately one life resides inside the other, is not viable until 21wks and its presence alone is a risk of life to the mother.

With those facts acknowledged there is factually no way to grant equality on this issues. Theres no way to grant equal rights or protect human rights without also violating human rights.

Now people are free to form their own opinions or hierarchy of rights but there will be a violation period. It’s just about what an individual choose to value more or less. Some people admit this fact and some people deny it but it’s a fact none the less.

pregnancy is about 38 to 42 weeks so this is what I do

I leave abortion on demand totally legal up to 21 weeks (viability)
its none of my business why, no reasons are needed and i cant come up with one logical or rational reason to violate the woman’s current legal and human rights before viability.

22 to32wks fetal rights are granted. No longer is abortion on demand permitted. I would allow abortion at this stage for various reasons, the same basic reasons many countries allow: maternal life, health, mental health, and/or fetal defects.

33+wks even tighter restrictions, very extreme cases probably never happening.
not to mention in the super vast majority of cases abortion over 21 weeks is extremely rare

but also be aware what abortion actually is, it is not the killing of the fetus so after viability a fetus that lives will have rights. (but by default these types of abortions would be rare anyway)

thats how abortion would go, as close to equal as possible and not violating human rights in just one direction the woman or the ZEF.

Now on to other areas

-Foster care/adoption reform would be a must. National adoption available to all those who qualify and race, gender, sexuality, single person etc are NOT things that will disqualify you. Foster care is already over run with kids that cant get adopted now so we have to make it a more realiable system all away around.
-healthcare reform with relation to maternal and infant needs
-social services reform with relation to children, single parents etc etc
-Maternity and paternity leave written in federal law. Another area we are behind on. We are like one of the only major countries that doesnt have this. In the US Pregnant women cant be fired for being pregnant but paid or supplemental leave/pay is not in law. its pathetic.
-Sex education, REAL sex education in all schools OPTIONAL starting at 6th grade mandatory in highschool along with optional parenting classes.
-Healthcare reform in relation to coverage of BC. It should be a cheap and available as possible.
- Expansion in Birth Control technologies. Contrary to the misinformation spread we are actually really good at not having unwanted children and avoiding abortion. People like to throw out the yearly number around 1-1.2 millon a year without any background or other stats. The fact of the matter is less than .1% of sex leads to abortion. So while improving this number probably isnt going to happen id still like to try.

paternal Rights
this is a very lopsided issue we have and it needs reformed to fix it.
IF the woman is going to have a baby or is deciding whether to or not the father must be notified ASAP.
He too will be given a time frame to decide if he wants to have legal rights (im guessing 16weeks allowing an extra month for the woman to decide)
Once a woman is pregnant the father must be notified as soon as possible and he is also given a time frame to claim legal rights to the child, if he chooses not too all his parental rights are null and void unless later granted voluntarily by the mother or but court rule.

of course all the other options would still remain, they both agree to put the baby up for adoption, mother could choose not to claim any legal rights and give them to the father etc etc

if the woman decides to abort then of course the man is out of luck.

Ok Im sure theres stuff I forgot but thats the basics, closer to equal than banning or unlimited abortions could ever be.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I have yet to hear a single practical idea that rectifies the problems that come with abortion. In fact, I have presented idea's for it that simply wouldn't work. Unfortunately current methods of birth control are not 100% effective, and we simply don't have the resources to help parents who otherwise couldn't support a family, but if we did have the means to help these families as well as a 100% effective birth control would anyone in the pro choice crowd reconsider the right to that choice? If you don't like hypotheticals this isn't the thread for you.

I don't know - are all forms of birth control and related procedures covered by insurance/that government support 100%?

There's more to pregnancy/child birth/rearing than financial concerns - providing the money for me to have child #5 won't make it safe for me to be pregnant again, even if I WANTED child #5.

The only thing I want to see happen is the decision to prevent abortions for convenience that are in excess - like that idiot who's had seven or something like that. I mean, at some point isn't it easier, more affordable, and more convenient to get your tubes tied? I believe rights are not inalienable, and if you're given a right - and you turn it into a travesty - you lose it.

 

[opendebate]

As a retired teacher in a very Catholic town, I saw what I thought was everything.
I have always advocated and supported adoption.
Having an adoptive family adopt the pregnant girl, like a nanny, who could be assured of pre-natal care is my option for girls in bad situations.
We have teachers who did adopt and were right there when the baby was born.
The girl chose them after many interviews.
I am a man. It is not my body. I struggle with abortion like no other issue.
Pro-life would say it's not an issue, it's a baby.
The greatest physicists and chemists in history lived after the civil war and before World War Two.
I can't help thinking we've lost some of them and more since 1973.

Maybe we have, maybe we have not. Yet another unknown.

You are right, it is a very difficult issue because it is unlike any other IMO. All you can do is follow your own conscience. I understand the rational behind those who oppose abortion I have just made a choice to respect the needs of the living and the rights of the living and defer to the judgment of the person carrying the child. That is not intended to judge your choice just explain mine.

 

[sbrettt]

I don't believe that for a second. Everyone on all sides of the issues says the best solution is to not have the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. We disagree on how to manifest that, but that is the shared solution.

That's a good point, but people still seem to make that mistake in massive numbers.

 

[sbrettt]

I don't know - are all forms of birth control and related procedures covered by insurance/that government support 100%?

There's more to pregnancy/child birth/rearing than financial concerns - providing the money for me to have child #5 won't make it safe for me to be pregnant again, even if I WANTED child #5.

The only thing I want to see happen is the decision to prevent abortions for convenience that are in excess - like that idiot who's had seven or something like that. I mean, at some point isn't it easier, more affordable, and more convenient to get your tubes tied? I believe rights are not inalienable, and if you're given a right - and you turn it into a travesty - you lose it.

I've always sort of assumed they had laws saying if you use abortion as birth control then you lose that right. I'm not disputing what you're saying, but I find it shocking. Is there really no laws limiting abortion for people who over do it?