• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Amy Coney Barrett’s Originalism Threatens Our Freedoms

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
94,171
Reaction score
82,451
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent

10/21/20
In 1987, Robert Bork was denied confirmation to the Supreme Court because his originalist beliefs were deemed a serious threat to constitutional rights. Originalism is no less dangerous for those rights today, yet Judge Amy Coney Barrett’s repeated statements professing her belief in originalism have been met with little objection. Originalists believe that the meaning of a constitutional provision is fixed when it was adopted and that it can change only by constitutional amendment. Under this view, the First Amendment means the same thing as when it was adopted in 1791 and the 14th Amendment means the same thing as when it was ratified in 1868. But rights in the 21st century should not be determined by the understandings and views of centuries ago. This would lead to terrible results. The same Congress that voted to ratify the 14th Amendment, which assures equal protection of the laws, also voted to segregate the District of Columbia public schools. Following originalism would mean that Brown v. Board of Education was wrongly decided in declaring laws requiring segregation of schools unconstitutional. In fact, under the original public meaning of the Constitution, it would be unconstitutional to elect a woman as president or vice president until the Constitution is amended. Article II refers to them with the pronoun “he,” and there is no doubt that original understanding was that only men could hold these offices.

Judge Barrett doesn’t need to explicitly say that she would vote to overrule Roe v. Wade because she has left no doubt by saying that she is an originalist in the mold of Justice Antonin Scalia, for whom she clerked. “His judicial philosophy is mine too,” she told the Senate Judiciary Committee. The rejection of originalism is not new. Early in the 19th century, Chief Justice John Marshall wrote that “we must never forget that it is a Constitution we are expounding,” a Constitution “meant to be adapted and endure for ages to come.” Also, what often is overlooked is that conservative justices ignore original meaning when it does not serve their purpose. One of the worst decisions in recent years was Shelby County v. Holder in 2013, which struck down key provisions of the Voting Rights Act that required states with a history of race discrimination in voting to obtain approval from the attorney general or a panel of judges before making significant changes in their election systems. The court, voting 5-4, said that this violated the principle that Congress must treat all states alike. But no such requirement is found in the Constitution. Moreover, the Congress that ratified the 14th Amendment imposed Reconstruction on Southern states, showing that it did not mean to treat all states alike.

An "originalist" in US Constitutional jurisprudence is not that much different than an Islamic Wahabis. Both believe that their founding document (Constitution/Quran) are fixed in the language/time of their creation and are immutable.

Thus they are not documents that grow and mature with age and wisdom, but rather are permanently anchored in the distant past, immutable and fossilized while being applied to modern realities that change at an ever faster pace.
 
Originalists are a threat to those who need and or have benefited from legislation from the bench not to the Constitution.

Most of the fear seems to be about abortion. Obama and Biden promised to codify Roe. They did not even try. There is nothing to fear from originalist if you support decisions that were soundly and constitutionally based.
 



An "originalist" in US Constitutional jurisprudence is not that much different than an Islamic Wahabis. Both believe that their founding document (Constitution/Quran) are fixed in the language/time of their creation and are immutable.

Thus they are not documents that grow and mature with age and wisdom, but rather are permanently anchored in the distant past, immutable and fossilized while being applied to modern realities that change at an ever faster pace.

Originalism is a dogma, perhaps even a religion, that is a dog whistle for ignoring every constitutional amendment after the 10th.
 
Originalism....f**** that noise.
Anyone who thinks they are an "originalist", show me your slaves, because the real meaning of "originalism" is basically:

Whatever a bunch of wealthy property owning slave owning white men wanted back in 1787

And yeah, it IS exactly what @Rogue Valley said, it's fundamentalism, it's cult behavior.
 
Originalists are a threat to those who need and or have benefited from legislation from the bench not to the Constitution.

Most of the fear seems to be about the abortion. Obama and Biden promised to codify Roe. They did not even try. There is nothing to fear from originalist if you support decisions that were soundly and constitutionally based.

If you used the originalist approach upon which our constitution is based, Barrett, as a woman, would not even be able to vote alone sit on the supreme court.
 
"Originalism" is a bootstrapping lie.

Judges of all labels look to original intent and meaning, then try to apply it to a question the founders could not have had an original intent about. That takes analogizing. And most cases build off other cases instead of going all the way back to square one.

They're just making educated guesstimates about what the framers of a given provision or amendment might think. It's not like when Kyllo presented the question of whether using an infared scanner on houses counted as a search, the justices whipped out some dusty old tomes and read all about how infrared scans should be handled if the 4th Amd passes.
 
If you used the originalist approach upon which our constitution is based, Barrett, as a woman, would not even be able to vote alone sit on the supreme court.
In the founders infinite wisdom they devised a mechanism to ammendmend the constitution. 19 ammendment
 
In the founders infinite wisdom they devised a mechanism to ammendmend the constitution. 19 ammendment

Laws have been interpreted and upheld by precedent for many hundreds of years.

For example, Roe v Wade is a well established precedent and cited in dozens of subsequent cases..

Yet Barrett says it's A-okay to overturn a well established law/precedent if you believe (via Originalism) the law/precedent(s) wrong.

This line of reasoning is disingenuous and dangerous. The Republicans don't yet fully realize it, but Barrett/Originalism will also bite them in the ass someday.
 
Plessy V Ferguson was precedent before it wasn't
 
Rosemary's baby is all grown up.
 
Originalism is a modern conservative invention.

The Founding Fathers did not have such concept.

To them, the Consttution refected the dominant beliefs of their day, so they were closer to the progressive theory of interpreting the constitution based on current beliefs and norms.
 
Originalists are a threat to those who need and or have benefited from legislation from the bench not to the Constitution.

Most of the fear seems to be about abortion. Obama and Biden promised to codify Roe. They did not even try. There is nothing to fear from originalist if you support decisions that were soundly and constitutionally based.
That's not an excuse. Legislation COMES from the legislative branch.
 
Originalism....f**** that noise.
Anyone who thinks they are an "originalist", show me your slaves, because the real meaning of "originalism" is basically:

Whatever a bunch of wealthy property owning slave owning white men wanted back in 1787

And yeah, it IS exactly what @Rogue Valley said, it's fundamentalism, it's cult behavior.
That is probably the stupidest comment this year. Maybe the decade.
 



An "originalist" in US Constitutional jurisprudence is not that much different than an Islamic Wahabis. Both believe that their founding document (Constitution/Quran) are fixed in the language/time of their creation and are immutable.

Thus they are not documents that grow and mature with age and wisdom, but rather are permanently anchored in the distant past, immutable and fossilized while being applied to modern realities that change at an ever faster pace.

Right, the purpose of written law is to fix its meaning. This way, people aren’t left guessing as to its meaning. A law whose meaning isn’t fixed to the plain text or its original meaning, but the meaning is magically discovered in the mind of a judge at some point in time, is as bad as Nero taking edicts passed by the Senate he didn’t find palatable and attaching them to the highest posts in the Forum.

The idea law is fixed doesn’t mean the law is “fossilized.” Statutes can be amended or repealed. The U.S. Constitution has an avenue for changing its meaning and its the amendment process. But the fixation principle allows the people, the political power in a representative form of government, to change the law, as opposed to a small number of judges who aren’t to change laws.
 
An "originalist" in US Constitutional jurisprudence is not that much different than an Islamic Wahabis. Both believe that their founding document (Constitution/Quran) are fixed in the language/time of their creation and are immutable.

Thus they are not documents that grow and mature with age and wisdom, but rather are permanently anchored in the distant past, immutable and fossilized while being applied to modern realities that change at an ever faster pace.

Making rulings off of the original intent of the Constitution is literally their job. The judicial branch is the status quo branch, the legislative is the branch for change, and the executive is neither, carrying out what is the rule of the day, be it status quo or change.

Anyone who thinks it is a judge's job to change the meaning of things and legislate from the bench is ignorant and should not be involved in such matters.
 
Laws have been interpreted and upheld by precedent for many hundreds of years.

For example, Roe v Wade is a well established precedent and cited in dozens of subsequent cases..

Yet Barrett says it's A-okay to overturn a well established law/precedent if you believe (via Originalism) the law/precedent(s) wrong.

This line of reasoning is disingenuous and dangerous. The Republicans don't yet fully realize it, but Barrett/Originalism will also bite them in the ass someday.

Why is it disingenuous? The Court has previously overturned precedent on the basis the precedent was wrong.

How is originalism dangerous?
 
Originalism....f**** that noise.
Anyone who thinks they are an "originalist", show me your slaves, because the real meaning of "originalism" is basically:

Whatever a bunch of wealthy property owning slave owning white men wanted back in 1787

And yeah, it IS exactly what @Rogue Valley said, it's fundamentalism, it's cult behavior.

That is Strawman originalism. First, originalism doesn’t concern itself or care what was “wanted.”
Second, originalism is based on a broader consideration than “wealthy property owning slave owning white men.”

But you can’t be bothered to figure out what originalism is so as to make an informed critique.
 
Laws have been interpreted and upheld by precedent for many hundreds of years.

For example, Roe v Wade is a well established precedent and cited in dozens of subsequent cases..

Yet Barrett says it's A-okay to overturn a well established law/precedent if you believe (via Originalism) the law/precedent(s) wrong.

This line of reasoning is disingenuous and dangerous. The Republicans don't yet fully realize it, but Barrett/Originalism will also bite them in the ass someday.

If it were such a horrible thing to overturn prior cases, our schools would still be separate and unequal, there would be no labor unions, there would be no same sex marriage, etc etc etc.
 
Originalism is a modern conservative invention.

The Founding Fathers did not have such concept.

To them, the Consttution refected the dominant beliefs of their day, so they were closer to the progressive theory of interpreting the constitution based on current beliefs and norms.

Who knows what the consensus of the framers was regarding the mode of interpretation of the Constitution. But some Framers and some Founders espoused a view consistent with original

Madison, did opine in a letter, “What a metamorphosis would be produced in the code of law if all its ancient phraseology were to be taken in its modern sense!”

While in the House, and objecting to a bank, he invoked an interpretation of the Constitution consistent with originalism. Specifically, Madison said the meaning of the constitution was to be deduced from examining what the meaning was understood to be by the people, through the state ratification conventions. “[W]hatever veneration might be entertained for the body of men who formed our Constitution, the sense of that body could never be regarded as an oracular guide in expounding the Constitution. As the instrument came from them, it was nothing more than the draft of a plan, nothing but a dead letter, until life and validity was breathed into it by the voice of the people, speaking through the several State Conventions.”

Jefferson, likewise, described the roll of the judge as finding the meaning of the law at the time the law came into existence by resorting to context and other factors.

“Our peculiar security is in the possession of a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank paper by construction...Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should, therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense. Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure...The Constitution on which our Union rests, shall be administered by me [as President] according to the safe and honest meaning contemplated by the plain understanding of the people of the United States at the time of its adoption--a meaning to be found in the explanations of those who advocated..."On every question of construction carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.”

This alone doesn’t establish the Constitution is to be interpreted in this manner or by original meaning. It is, however, evidence to do so.
 



An "originalist" in US Constitutional jurisprudence is not that much different than an Islamic Wahabis. Both believe that their founding document (Constitution/Quran) are fixed in the language/time of their creation and are immutable.

Thus they are not documents that grow and mature with age and wisdom, but rather are permanently anchored in the distant past, immutable and fossilized while being applied to modern realities that change at an ever faster pace.
So you went there. You have completely discredited yourself, and are now irrelevant. That statement is the stupidest, most imbecilic statement anyone could ever make about the United States of America and its founding ideals. You are irredeemable.
 
That's not an excuse. Legislation COMES from the legislative branch.
Yes, that is the way it is supposed to work. Making law in the courts is so much faster, not to mention easier. Obama and Biden didn't codify Roe because that would have been work; not a priority they said at the time.
 
Yes, that is the way it is supposed to work. Making law in the courts is so much faster, not to mention easier. Obama and Biden didn't codify Roe because that would have been work; not a priority they said at the time.
I think the worry over Roe is overdone, frankly. I think the whole hubbub about what Barrett was going to do was just a left wing scare story to herd the masses to their tent for the elections. While Barrett would concede "Super Precedent" status to Roe, it is still a long standing precedent, and I think that will weigh heavily on any case.
 
"Originalism" is a bootstrapping lie.

Judges of all labels look to original intent and meaning, then try to apply it to a question the founders could not have had an original intent about. That takes analogizing. And most cases build off other cases instead of going all the way back to square one.

They're just making educated guesstimates about what the framers of a given provision or amendment might think. It's not like when Kyllo presented the question of whether using an infared scanner on houses counted as a search, the justices whipped out some dusty old tomes and read all about how infrared scans should be handled if the 4th Amd passes.
The constitution is built upon principles, not specific technologies. The Supreme Court addressed this issue clearly in DC v Heller:

Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous, that only those arms in existence in the 18th century are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret constitutional rights that way. Just as the First Amendment protects modern forms of communications,...and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern forms of search, the Second Amendment extends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding.
DC v Heller
, page 8

So a modern judge might have to decide if a new technology constitutes a search, but the Fourth Amendment applies regardless.
 
Back
Top Bottom