Ammon Bundy & Water Wars too

[Luce]

No, the Republican Party is not right-wing, and has never been.

Hahahahaha

 

[Peter King]

Ammon Bundy and his family/others with the same thieving instinct are criminals and cheats.

Loads of farmers do the legal thing and pay for their use of land/water/etc. Their products have that cost in the price of their meat. Thieves like Bundy et al can profit from their thieving behavior and they should be arrested and the wealth they achieved from federal lands/US lands should be recuperated by selling property of Bundy and other thieves until their debt to the US government and extra fines on top of that should be paid. If they cannot pay with their property then their livestock should be sold until the debt is paid.

And for those stealing with menace/violence/threat of violence should be locked up on top of that.

 

[watsup]

There is, of course, more to this story. As I suspected, yet another climate-change-driven huge drought in the area has resulted in extremely low watdr levels in the reservoir. So there you have it- the same idiot right wingers who “don’t believe in” human-driven climate change get extremely upset when they become victims of it and, of course, blame that dag-nabbed federal government while at the same time complaining about President Biden agreeing to cooperate with much of the rest of the world in trying to stem it.
Yes, this is the type of pure idiocy that we get from the right wingers all over the nation on a daily basis. God help us, because they sure won’t.

“PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) — The water crisis along the California-Oregon border went from dire to catastrophic this week as federal regulators shut off irrigation water to farmers from a critical reservoir and said they would not send extra water to dying salmon downstream or to a half-dozen wildlife refuges that harbor millions of migrating birds each year.

In what is shaping up to be the worst water crisis in generations, the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation said it will not release water this season into the main canal that feeds the bulk of the massive Klamath Reclamation Project, marking a first for the 114-year-old irrigation system. The agency announced last month that hundreds of irrigators would get dramatically less water than usual, but a worsening drought picture means water will be completely shut off instead.”

And there you have it. The migrating birds and the salmon don’t get water either. Why on earth do the right wingers not understand the depth of the climate change crisis, even when it affects then directly?

Klamath water crisis ‘couldn’t be worse’ on Oregon-California border

The water crisis along the California-Oregon border went from dire to catastrophic this week as federal regulators shut off irrigation water to farmers from a critical reservoir.

www.statesmanjournal.com

 

[watsup]

The Federal Land Reclamation Act
"An Act Appropriating the receipts from the sale and disposal of public lands in certain States and Territories to the construction of irrigation works for the reclamation of arid lands". The act identifies 16 states and territories included in the project: Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming. It requires surplus fees from sales of land be set aside for a "reclamation fund" for the development of water resources.

Below are listed the larger of the irrigation projects of the United States, with the area reclaimed or to be reclaimed as of 1925.
Arizona: Salt River, 182,000
Arizona-California: Yuma, 158,000
California: Orland, 20,000
Colorado: Grand Valley, 53,000; Uncompahgre Valley, 140,000
Idaho: Boise, 207,000; Minidoka, 120,500
Kansas: Garden City, 10,677
Montana: Blackfeet, 122,500; Flathead, 152,000; Fort Peck, 152,000; Huntley, 32,405; Milk River, 219,557; Sun River, 174,046
Montana-North Dakota: Lower Yellowstone, 60,116
Nebraska-Wyoming: North Platte, 129,270
Nevada: Truckee-Carson, 206,000
New Mexico: Carlsbad, 20,261; Hondo, 10,000; Rio Grande, 155,000
North Dakota: North Dakota Pumping, 26, 314
Oregon: Umatilla, 36,300
Oregon-California: Klamath, 70,000
South Dakota: Belle Fourche, 100,000
Utah: Strawberry Valley, 50,000
Washington: Okanogan, 10,999; Sunnyside, 102,824; Tieton (Teton), 34,071
Wyoming: Shoshone, 164,122

Oh, look! The federal government built the Klamath irrigation system. I don't see the Kroll and Nielsen Dam on that list.

And there you have it. Without FEDERAL government intervention in the first place, those land areas are unable to grow crops because they don’t have the water to do so without irrigation. But somehow when a problem arises, it’s suddenly a “state’s rights” issue.
I swear, the right wingers get dumber by the day.

 

[weaver2]

And there you have it. Without FEDERAL government intervention in the first place, those land areas are unable to grow crops because they don’t have the water to do so without irrigation. But somehow when a problem arises, it’s suddenly a “state’s rights” issue.
I swear, the right wingers get dumber by the day.

Aldo Leopold wrote a book Sand County Almanac in which he detailed the complex seasonal relationship of the climate, the soil, the water, the plants and animals on his land. He noted that we exploit rather than understanding these relationships and treat them as if they were infinite. In doing so, he said, we are destroying the environment that sustains us. He stated that until we come up with a land ethic and live by it we will keep on destroying our environment. He wrote this book in the 1950s. Since then we have increased our supply of people like the Bundys who would rather get the last drop of water for themselves than work together, reduce demands, and find an alternative to destruction of the environment.

 

[Moi621]

My neighbors have zero impact on whether something is true or false.

Have you @mrjurrs ever known rural neighbors?
Yes or No?

Speak Clearly Into The Microphone, please.​

I was sharing that knowing rural folks as neighbors made a difference to me.
A city guy with Liberal attitudes.


Moi
Recovered Liberal

ism & ism
cannot co-exist!​

 

[Moi621]

Ammon Bundy and his family/others with the same thieving instinct are criminals and cheats.

Loads of farmers do the legal thing and pay for their use of land/water/etc. Their products have that cost in the price of their meat. Thieves like Bundy et al can profit from their thieving behavior and they should be arrested and the wealth they achieved from federal lands/US lands should be recuperated by selling property of Bundy and other thieves until their debt to the US government and extra fines on top of that should be paid. If they cannot pay with their property then their livestock should be sold until the debt is paid.

And for those stealing with menace/violence/threat of violence should be locked up on top of that.

​

Have YOU @Peter King known rural folks? Ever. Yes or No

Speak Clearly Into The Microphone, please.

​

Moi

Alberta and what does
to land where bison roamed
​

 

[Peter King]

View attachment 67339740



​

Have YOU @Peter King known rural folks? Ever. Yes or No

Speak Clearly Into The Microphone, please.

​

Moi

View attachment 67339741
Alberta and what does
to land where bison roamed
​

Does that mean we have to approve of lawbreaking violent idiots like the Bundy's and those of their supporters who also use violence and crimes? I can answer that, **** no.

 

[Moi621]

Does that mean we have to approve of lawbreaking violent idiots like the Bundy's and those of their supporters who also use violence and crimes? I can answer that, **** no.

Don't have to approve nothin'

I'm just saying exposure to rural folks changed my
city kid, liberal attitudes.
And I wonder among Bundy critics, if there is one who has
known rural folks.


Come to think of it
Robert Redford's 2 rural movies
Milagro Beanfield War and an Unfinished Life
were critical of the Park Service


Moi

​

 

[weaver2]

Don't have to approve nothin'

I'm just saying exposure to rural folks changed my
city kid, liberal attitudes.
And I wonder among Bundy critics, if there is one who has
known rural folks.

I grew up in a rural farming community of 1500. I've lived in Alaska in a farming community. I've lived in Indian and Maine in rural farming communities. The Bundys are still ignorant jerks that don't know history, don't understand the Constitution or the requirements of intelligent behavior.

 

[LostInSeattle]

So if Bundy is elected, I assume the first he's going to do is to propose a massive tax increase to purchase federal lands for Idaho. I'll be interested to see how that goes down...

 

[LostInSeattle]

According to Article IV, Section 3 of the US Constitution, Congress has the authority to create new States and establish their borders. The federal government is not required to give every parcel of land within those State borders to the newly created State. The federal government may keep whatever land it deems necessary.

For example, Yellowstone National Park in Wyoming was created in 1872, even though Wyoming was not made a State until 1890. So while the State borders of Wyoming include Yellowstone National Park, the park still remains federal lands.

Or in the case of the Alaska Statehood Act of 1958, only 104 million acres from the total land area of 375 million acres was set aside by Congress for the new State. As a result, the State of Alaska actually looks like this (only the yellow bits are State lands):
View attachment 67336500

The issue of water rights is something else entirely, and was largely decided by the Supreme Court in Winters v. United States, 207 U.S. 564 (1908) which held:


Which very effectively gives the federal government control over all navigable waters in the US, unless Congress states otherwise. For example, in the Alaska Statehood Act of 1958 Congress gave the State of Alaska control of its submerged lands under navigable lakes and rivers. So when the National Park Service tried to prohibit the use of hovercraft on rivers within National Parks, the Supreme Court in a 9-0 decision in Sturgeon v. Frost, 587 U.S. ___ (2019) held:


So Alaska is the one exception to the States in the lower-48, because Alaska, not the federal government, owns its navigable water ways.

That's very cool. I did not know that about Alaska.

 

[LostInSeattle]

Also, people should be mad at California. It’s a master state in stealing resources from others to subsidize a third world country within our borders.

What exactly are you talking about here? Whom is California stealing from, and what TW country is it subsidizing?

 

[LostInSeattle]

The one thing they do have in common is that they are both run by anti-American fascist leftists, in absolutely every case.

Wow, your absolute certainty about the rest of the world must be reassuring. I found no fascists or USA haters in Costa Rica. Guatemala, on the other hand, had a lot of fascists but few leftists (in power), and again, no USA haters that I encountered. Mexico had few fascists or leftists but some USA haters. And fascist leftist is a silly term. Don't go down that road of claiming that the NSDAP was a "socialist" organization. Socialism, Communism and Fascism are VERY different.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Wow, your absolute certainty about the rest of the world must be reassuring. I found no fascists or USA haters in Costa Rica. Guatemala, on the other hand, had a lot of fascists but few leftists (in power), and again, no USA haters that I encountered. Mexico had few fascists or leftists but some USA haters. And fascist leftist is a silly term. Don't go down that road of claiming that the NSDAP was a "socialist" organization. Socialism, Communism and Fascism are VERY different.

Fascism was in fact a socialist movement. Mussolini was a socialist and Hitlers movement shared many of the philosophical underpinnings with socialism.



This is not really in dispute to anyone who knows about it, what I find interesting though is how leftists will vehemently deny this to absurd lengths while casually calling anyone they don’t like a fascist. The term fascism anyway doesn’t convey any meaning in terms of philosophy, it was a purely symbolic term, since officials in the Roman Republic would carry a symbol called a “fasces” as evidence of their office.

 

[Glitch]

The term fascism anyway doesn’t convey any meaning in terms of philosophy, it was a purely symbolic term, since officials in the Roman Republic would carry a symbol called a “fasces” as evidence of their office.

Not true. According to fascism's founder its core philosophy was: "Everything within the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State." It doesn't get any more left-wing than that. The fasces was indeed the symbol of Musollini's fascist party, but it was also more than just a symbol. The bundle of wooden rods symbolized the unity of the people and the axe symbolized the ultimate authority and law-giving status of the ruler. Furthermore, the axe was used (as opposed to a single-blade) to symbolize the power of capital punishment. Considering the underlying philosophy of fascism, it was the ideal symbol.

The fasces also predates Rome. They have also been used by both France and the US, primarily in government seals and documents. In the case of the US, also on the back side of a Mercury dime.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Not true. According to fascism's founder its core philosophy was: "Everything within the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State." It doesn't get any more left-wing than that. The fasces was indeed the symbol of Musollini's fascist party, but it was also more than just a symbol. The bundle of wooden rods symbolized the unity of the people and the axe symbolized the ultimate authority and law-giving status of the ruler. Furthermore, the axe was used (as opposed to a single-blade) to symbolize the power of capital punishment. Considering the underlying philosophy of fascism, it was the ideal symbol.

The fasces also predates Rome. They have also been used by both France and the US, primarily in government seals and documents. In the case of the US, also on the back side of a Mercury dime.

I was talking about the pure etymology of the word fascism. Fascism itself as a word does not convey any meaning of a political program. It is merely a term Mussolini applied to his movement.

Really where the term became popular is when the Comintern uses the term fascism as a propagandistic slur against everyone they didn’t like.

No political movement outside of Italy identified themselves as fascist. The Nazis never called themselves fascist nor did they share the political program of the Italians (and yet everyone things of a Hitler when they hear the word) Franco in Spain and Horthy in Hungary were both conservative monarchists and yet they are called fascists, general Mannerhein in Finland is sometimes referred to as a fascist although this is less common. You begin to realize that the term fascist was used to describe one movement in one country by that movement, and to everyone else it was applied by the communist international

 

[Glitch]

Don't have to approve nothin'

I'm just saying exposure to rural folks changed my
city kid, liberal attitudes.
And I wonder among Bundy critics, if there is one who has
known rural folks.


Come to think of it
Robert Redford's 2 rural movies
Milagro Beanfield War and an Unfinished Life
were critical of the Park Service


Moi

I have lived in rural Alaska since 2003. My closest neighbor is just over an acre away, and the nearest town with a population of 7,500 is 8 miles away. I'm also critical of Bundy, since he was clearly unaware that the federal government owns all navigable water ways in the lower-48 and in Hawaii. The only State in the Union that owns more than 8,000 miles of rivers and streams, and 30 million acres of lakes, is Alaska.

Bundy never had any legal claim to the water, neither did the local native tribe.

There are times when the National Park Service, or to be more accurate Congress acting on behalf of the National Park Service warrants criticism. Like what Congress did to Alaska in 1978 and 1980.

In 1978 Congress created:

• Aniakchak National Monument at 137,176 acres;
• Cape Krusenstern National Monument at 649,082 acres;
• Admiralty Island National Monument at 955,747 acres; and
• Misty Fjords National Monument at 2,294,343 acres.

In 1980 Congress created:

• Izembek National Wildlife Refuge at 315,000 acres;
• Kenai Fjords National Park at 669,983 acres;
• Tetlin National Wildlife Refuge at 700,058 acres;
• Kanuti National Wildlife Refuge at 1,640,000 acres;
• Kobuk Valley National Park at 1,750,717 acres;
• Kenai National Wildlife Refuge at 1,920,000 acres;
• Nowitna National Wildlife Refuge at 2,100,000 acres;
• Selawik National Wildlife Refuge at 2,150,162 acres;
• Lake Clark National Park at 2,619,733 acres;
• Koyukuk National Wildlife Refuge at 3,500,000 acres;
• Katmai National Park at 3,674,530 acres;
• Innoko National Wildlife Refuge at 3,850,481 acres;
• Togiak National Wildlife Refuge at 4,102,537 acres;
• Noatak National Preserve at 6,569,904 acres;
• Gates of the Arctic National Park at 7,523,898 acres;
• Wrangell-St. Elias National Park at 8,323,148 acres;
• Yukon Delta National Wildlife Refuge at 19,160,000; and
• The Arctic National Wildlife Refuge at 19,286,722 acres.

Which meant that in the span of just two years Congress took 93,893,221 acres (146,708 square miles) off the table and completely disrupted the lives of most Alaskans, particularly those living on that land the federal government just seized and dependent on the game for their survival. So the criticism was definitely warranted.

 

[Glitch]

I was talking about the pure etymology of the word fascism. Fascism itself as a word does not convey any meaning of a political program. It is merely a term Mussolini applied to his movement.

Really where the term became popular is when the Comintern uses the term fascism as a propagandistic slur against everyone they didn’t like.

No political movement outside of Italy identified themselves as fascist. The Nazis never called themselves fascist nor did they share the political program of the Italians (and yet everyone things of a Hitler when they hear the word) Franco in Spain and Horthy in Hungary were both conservative monarchists and yet they are called fascists, general Mannerhein in Finland is sometimes referred to as a fascist although this is less common. You begin to realize that the term fascist was used to describe one movement in one country by that movement, and to everyone else it was applied by the communist international

It is true, fascism was only employed by Mussolini's National Fascist Party of Italy and did not extend beyond Italy's borders. While the Mussollini's fascist principles could be applied to Hitler, it would be more accurate to describe Hitler as a socialist totalitarian and Franco as just a totalitarian. Franco was neither socialist nor conservative, he was just a power-mad totalitarian monarchist.

Fascism could easily be applied to socialist totalitarianism, but not communism. Communism does not permit any private property. All property is owned by the State. Which is different from socialism that does allow private property ownership. Socialism is when government controls the means of production. Like Truman attempted to do in 1952 when he illegally nationalized the steel industry.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It is true, fascism was only employed by Mussolini's National Fascist Party of Italy and did not extend beyond Italy's borders. While the Mussollini's fascist principles could be applied to Hitler, it would be more accurate to describe Hitler as a socialist totalitarian and Franco as just a totalitarian. Franco was neither socialist nor conservative, he was just a power-mad totalitarian monarchist.

Fascism could easily be applied to socialist totalitarianism, but not communism. Communism does not permit any private property. All property is owned by the State. Which is different from socialism that does allow private property ownership. Socialism is when government controls the means of production. Like Truman attempted to do in 1952 when he illegally nationalized the steel industry.

Franco was neither power mad nor totalitarian. He was largely a symbolic figurehead after the conclusion of the civil war and the immediate transition period.

His power was constitutionally limited, by precedent and custom like the English constitution, he could not order people killed or jailed for instance, and the day to day governing of the regime was carried out through ministries.

Franco was clearly a conservative. I recommend you read Stanley Payne’s excellent biography of Franco as well as his book on the regime. It was nothing like you characterized it.

 

[joko104]

It's not their property.

It's the citizen's property, you and me and everyone else.

Bundy nor anyone else can tell us citizens of the United States what to do with our land.



.

It's not your land and pretending you are the federal government itself doesn't change that. How much is it NOT your land? For much of federal undeveloped land it is a criminal offense for you to merely step on the government's land. In relation to land of the federal government, you have no more rights to be on it than anyone else in the world. The land is not yours nor land of the citizens of the United States. It is land totally owned and controlled by the federal government. You are nobody in relation to the government's land.

How is the federal government banning people obtaining food off the government's land any different than how it was illegal in the story of Robin Hood to hunt for food on the king's land? How it is any different for the 640,000,000 acres of land the federal government controls? You have NO rights as a "citizen" in relation to federal land.

 

[watsup]

It's not your land and pretending you are the federal government itself doesn't change that. How much is it NOT your land? For much of federal undeveloped land it is a criminal offense for you to merely step on the government's land. In relation to land of the federal government, you have no more rights to be on it than anyone else in the world. The land is not yours nor land of the citizens of the United States. It is land totally owned and controlled by the federal government. You are nobody in relation to the government's land.

How is the federal government banning people obtaining food off the government's land any different than how it was illegal in the story of Robin Hood to hunt for food on the king's land? How it is any different for the 640,000,000 acres of land the federal government controls? You have NO rights as a "citizen" in relation to federal land.

I would much rather see it protected for wildlife and to maintain it’s “natural” state than to be despoiled in “private” hands. As it is, the great bulk of the land does indeed “belong to all of us” because we can ALL use it for our pleasure rather than it being held back from us by private landowners.

 

[mrjurrs]

Yes Citizen's property
But, Citizens of a State.
Not any Atlantic Coast, Yankee Federal
who veto those State's citizens!


Get It Or Not!

It is not citizens property. It is the property of the federal govt managed for the benefit of all persons, not individuals.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I would much rather see it protected for wildlife and to maintain it’s “natural” state than to be despoiled in “private” hands. As it is, the great bulk of the land does indeed “belong to all of us” because we can ALL use it for our pleasure rather than it being held back from us by private landowners.

Economic development is not despoilment. Besides you shouldn’t have the right to demand your ability to pretend you care that a deer lives in a specific acre supersedes the ability for someone in more rural areas to have well paying extractive jobs

 

[joko104]

I would much rather see it protected for wildlife and to maintain it’s “natural” state than to be despoiled in “private” hands. As it is, the great bulk of the land does indeed “belong to all of us” because we can ALL use it for our pleasure rather than it being held back from us by private landowners.

No, most of the land you can not go on and I understand your supporting non-maintenance and protect of land the government has. In short, you cheer the California wildfires as you pretend the government's land is in a "natural state" - such as all the "natural" electric lines and "natural" manmade fires and all the other manmade factors you bizarrely claim are "natural".

Your message points to a real problem of all the land the federal government has. Most of that land is completely ignored, citizen access banned, and the land is not managed or protected.

You also seem to not be aware that the government does NOT keep all it's land in a "natural state." Rather, the government is nothing more than the landlord who rents out the land and sells off natural resources of the land for profit. Simply, the federal government in terms of land is a for-profit business.