Pretending my spin to be true? You do understand that the cold war wasn't ideological right? The ideological battle of the USSR and the USA is the Disney version they sell the weak minded. Everyone else understands that it was a war to establish spheres of economic influence.
Yes, spin. "we went in there to defend our economic interests. 58,000 people died so McDonald's could set up shop in Vietnam". That is beyond silly. Did the -ist that pounded that into your head keep a straight face when getting you to take a bite of it?
Maintaining - favorable to the US - trade with the region, surrounding Japan with pro-West allies in the case of war with Russia/China. The belief that we went to fight for freedom is so far removed to how things in the real world work it's absolutely ridiculous people still buy into the jingoist Eisenhower-Kennedy-Nixon rhetoric.
Aw, so now it wasn't just the US economic interests as the cause of our involvement? And do you mean war with the USSR and China or just either one of them? You also didn't mention FDR, Truman and LBJ even though they had a say in the region, why is that?
:hitsfan:
I am with Navy Pride on this. I will never forgive her for what she did in Viet Nam.
That being said, my thoughts are in direct conflict with Christian theology and the teachings of the Catholic Church. As is his.
Consider this, the Apostle Paul, (formally known as Saul,) done things far worse than anything Hanoi Jane could ever do. Yet, upon his repentance, he became on of the most admired apostles in Christianity.
"Jane Fonda realizes that she made a serious mistake in 1972 when she had a little sing-along with North Vietnamese soldiers while sitting on an anti-aircraft gun that may have shot down some of our American boys. According to an April 3 article on Newsmax, Jane Fonda admitted on the Oprah Winfrey Network (OWN) that she will go to her grave with this “unforgivable mistake.” <snip> 'Hanoi Jane' Fonda says she will go to her grave with her 'unforgivable mistake' - Knoxville Politics | Examiner.com
Forgiving her would be the Christian thing to do. Far be it from me or Mr. Pride to do the Christian thing.
You and I will probably never agree on much. But a recent book about the Vietnam conflict is a good read for everyone regardless of which side of the political fence the sit on. Embers of War. It explains a lot of what went on and why going far beyond the entire thing happening over a Big Mac and an order of fries.
You and I will probably never agree on much. But a recent book about the Vietnam conflict is a good read for everyone regardless of which side of the political fence the sit on. Embers of War. It explains a lot of what went on and why going far beyond the entire thing happening over a Big Mac and an order of fries.
Nothing is more emblematic of Jane Fonda’s trip to Hanoi—nothing has caused her to be more justly scorned—than the photographs (there are several, taken moments apart) of a blissful Fonda sitting atop a 37 mm North Vietnamese antiaircraft gun surrounded by reporters and a gun crew. In the version we used on the cover of "Aid and Comfort," Fonda is looking through the gun sight at an imaginary American plane, her face ecstatic, her hands folded almost in prayer. If there was anything about her trip to Hanoi that Fonda needed to lie about, it is this photo op.
So she does: According to her memoir, she arrived at Hanoi’s airport. Her hosts briefly went over the itinerary for her visit. "I noticed that the trip to an antiaircraft installation is still on the agenda for the last day, despite my message [a "pretrip letter"] from Los Angeles saying I was not interested in military installations. I tell them that I don’t want to keep that visit on the agenda."
Does such a letter even exist? No evidence in her autobiography is provided to support its existence.
In fact, when her itinerary was published in a Congressional Hearing Report [which we reprinted in full in Aid and Comfort], there was no entry that scheduled a visit to any antiaircraft installation. A reasonable person would conclude that she made up the entire story of her "pretrip" demurral, along with so much else.
And even though she claims to have noticed the itinerary item practically from the moment her feet touched the ground, Fonda acquiesced in the AAA visit because, as she writes, "Altering the plans [not scheduled for another two weeks!] appears to cause consternation. Decisions have been made. I am too tired to protest." Still, she decides, "I am going." Lots of Americans, she writes, are taken to military installations; lots of them have to wear helmets. And since such Americans were anti-Americans who believed their country was the "imperialist aggressor" in Vietnam, lots of them had beatific expressions on their face when they sat in gun turrets designed to kill their own countrymen.
As she arrives at an antiaircraft gun installation on the outskirts of Hanoi and sees a weapon used to shoot down American aircraft, Fonda purports to be surprised at "a horde of photographers and journalists." (Sure, a Hollywood star is surprised to see cameras at a showpiece event that has been set up for her!)
The Communist soldiers sing. Fonda’s translator translates: "All men are created equal. They are given certain rights; among these are life, liberty and happiness." (We are not making this up.) Fonda is so moved by this musical version of our Declaration of Independence that "I begin to cry and clap. These young men should not be our enemy. They celebrate the same words Americans do." [Emphasis is Fonda’s]
One good performance deserves another. The AAA gunners ask Fonda to reciprocate with a song of her own. Somehow Fonda has managed to anticipate this request before leaving the United States. She has memorized in Vietnamese a song written by South Vietnamese and antiwar activists -- i.e., supporters of the Communist propaganda offensive. "Everyone laughs and claps, including me," she writes.
The performance is over. "Someone, I don’t remember who, leads me toward the gun, and I sit down, still applauding. It all has nothing to do with where I am sitting. I hardly even think about where I am sitting." Give us a break.
These three sentences are the only explanation in some 600 pages of Fonda’s autobiography of why she provided the North Vietnamese Communists with a propaganda picture worth, not the proverbial thousand words, but rather thousands of American and Vietnamese lives.
As Fonda walks away, we are asked to believe that the implications of her conduct suddenly dawned on her. She writes, "Oh my God. It’s going to look like I was trying to shoot down America planes." [Emphasis Fonda’s] Not really, Jane. It looks just like you thought that shooting down American planes was a fantastic idea, which is evident from everything else you did and said in Vietnam and in respect to the war before and after.
She claims, preposterously,
in her autobiography that she pleaded with her translator to make sure her hosts saw to it that the potentially embarrassing photographs were not published. If this is true, how come she didn’t protest the pictures when they were published? How come it took her twenty years to "apologize" for embarrassing herself (which was the extent of her apology)?
This self-serving assertion
is of course belied by the fact that she went to the gun emplacement installation in the first place and allowed herself to be photographed – for what purpose? Home entertainment?
Thirty-three years later comes this grudging (and embarrassing and not credible) admission: "It is possible that the Vietnamese had it all planned." [Emphasis ours] But, she continues, "can I really blame them?"
And besides, Fonda adds as an afterthought: "the gun was inactive, there were no planes overhead." In what reality is this woman living?
The photograph incident is the one that I'm interested, so let's look at that according to your source.
This is important, and strikes me as being anti-American to a particularly worrying extent. Gleefully looking through the sites of a AA gun "at imaginary American planes" gives me the impression that she's not just innocently anti-war, but anti-American. Just one problem: I can't find such a photograph. Everything I've been able to uncover on Google Image Search just shows the photographs where she's listening to others sing, singing herself, and her hands are either clasped in her lap or up near her face in delight while the translator (according to her) translates the pro-liberty lyrics. If anybody can provide this photograph clearly showing her looking through the sites I'd appreciate it. If this photo exists, that would shatter most illusions of her meeting with enemy civilians in order to demonstrate that they're people too, which makes complete sense if you're anti-war. It's a lot of what being anti-war is about.
.
She was an adult woman, beneficiary of what could be considered some of the very best of America, had the world by the 'nads... then she overstepped. Purposely. The far left loved/love her, no doubt... but the then absolutely gorgeous lady made her thorny bed all by herself."The now-75-year-old actress has since apologized for what she told Oprah Winfrey was an "unforgivable mistake" made in 1972."
You're pretty judgemental.
She was an adult woman, beneficiary of what could be considered some of the very best of America, had the world by the 'nads... then she overstepped. Purposely. The far left loved/love her, no doubt... but the then absolutely gorgeous lady made her thorny bed all by herself.
Isn't not calling a spade a spade, when comes right down to it, just deceiving oneself? Besides, we are human, we judge... the best we can hope for is to judge sensibly, judiciously. And, truthfully, I have yet to see here any definitively untrue portrayals of her actions in concert with, and in, Vietnam.
She had consequences, she had to know that. Apologize she surely should, does not mend the deep rips she created...
I wasn't there, but I don't forgive her, either. I mean, it would be like she had to be an idiot... I have heard her speak, she is no idiot, this was all conscious.
Oh.
**** this, I'm out of here.
The photograph incident is the one that I'm interested, so let's look at that according to your source.
This is important, and strikes me as being anti-American to a particularly worrying extent. Gleefully looking through the sites of a AA gun "at imaginary American planes" gives me the impression that she's not just innocently anti-war, but anti-American. Just one problem: I can't find such a photograph. Everything I've been able to uncover on Google Image Search just shows the photographs where she's listening to others sing, singing herself, and her hands are either clasped in her lap or up near her face in delight while the translator (according to her) translates the pro-liberty lyrics. If anybody can provide this photograph clearly showing her looking through the sites I'd appreciate it. If this photo exists, that would shatter most illusions of her meeting with enemy civilians in order to demonstrate that they're people too, which makes complete sense if you're anti-war. It's a lot of what being anti-war is about.
Well, this comes close - at least from the perspective of somebody who did serve in the Vietnam War:
Patriotic American Ted Nugent **** His Pants to Avoid the Draft
I don't like either one of them, but if you folks want to make a hero of Crazy Ted, be my guest.
So you think Truman's Containment Theory, followed up with action, and later blood and treasure, through the Truman Doctrine... you think those were just money making gambits? Not a thing else, we just wanna take and take and take, that solely it, is it?If your best response to my statements was "that's silly" and some question about why I didn't mention other presidents, of course we won't be seeing eye to eye. I didn't mention FDR, Turman or LBJ because with the exception of LBJ, Truman and FDR had little to do with the military side of the Vietnam war. They kept us removed from that theater and let the French solve their own mess. When the French ****ed off like surrender monkeys, the US took an attitude of "we can't let communism make money off these guys!" - The US' relations with former European colonies has been one of economic interest. We have never cared about the freedom of people in those countries as long as we can make a buck off them.
I'm perfectly fine with that. It made my country great. Just don't try to sell the bull**** that we honestly gave a **** about a few 3rd world peasants.
Vietnam vets will never accept and apology from this woman. She should be charged and tried as a traitor to this country......what she said and did is inexcusable May she rot in hell..
America's top UN diplomat has high praise for 'Hanoi Jane' | Fox News
Again, that is your argument? You compare any of that, which if he was doing it on your side you would hold him in awe...you compare that to what Jane did?And now he is on the board of directors of one of,if not the, one of the strongest RW lobby. The RWers are laughingstocks. But hey, that's just me...Ted deserves at least as much disdain as Jane, but he has money and likes guns and says stupid far right things.
So that wasn't Hanoi Jane broadcasting on radio from Hanoi ?
That wasn't Hanoi Jane sitting on an A/A gun in Hanoi when it was against the law for American citizens to travel to Communist North Vietnam ?
That wasn't Hanoi Jane who supported communism back when the agenda of American communist and the radical left to violently overthrow the U.S. government ?
So that wasn't Hanoi Jane who would tell American soldiers to desert while in combat ?
So that wasn't Hanoi Jane who was associated with the VVAW, the same organization who planned to attack Congress and kill as many members of Congress.
That wasn't Hanoi Jane who married Tom Hayden ?
During the past 4 1/2 years over half of all American adults at one time or another have been labeled by the left as being racist. Where's the evidence ?
Again, that is your argument? You compare any of that, which if he was doing it on your side you would hold him in awe...you compare that to what Jane did?
You must either think we are all idiots over here on this side [ jokes on you ] or... think you are the finest, silver tongued polished-shoed fecal salesman currently in residence.
Talking about laughing stock.
PS If you had included a pair of deep hip boots, maybe you might make a sale someday.
I am sure you put ol BJ Clinton with Ted and Jane then. And all the ones given amnesty by Jimmy Carter, too? Just a bunch of low lifes all the way around, eh?If he was doing if for my side? He is a low life draft dodging POS no matter which side he is on. I see no difference between Jane Fonda and the cowardly Ted. I think you are just so partisan you dont realize not everyone blindly follows the party line. I really have no idea what the rest your post is about.
No disagreement with this.
No disagreement that her behavior was un-American.
The rumors about the notes taken from POWs and their deaths have never been proven.
I have never seen any credible evidence where she caused deaths.
And for the record, I have never cared for her and have never spent a dime that went anywhere near her pockets.
I am sure you put ol BJ Clinton with Ted and Jane then. And all the ones given amnesty by Jimmy Carter, too? Just a bunch of low lifes all the way around, eh?
ohhh...
Its all in English... certainly not here to hold your hand.
How about all those amnestees? And Carter only pretends to be a good man, apparently fools some, not most.YOu are correct, I am not a big Clinton fan, he as a good president but brought great shame to the office, not a fair trade. I am indifferent on Carter, not a good president but I think a good man. I am not quite sure about the English and hold your hand thing, was there a point to that? I honestly believe most conservatives are partisan hacks, this post just seems to be more evidence.
No disagreement with this.
No disagreement that her behavior was un-American.
The rumors about the notes taken from POWs and their deaths have never been proven.
I have never seen any credible evidence where she caused deaths.
And for the record, I have never cared for her and have never spent a dime that went anywhere near her pockets.
So you think Truman's Containment Theory, followed up with action, and later blood and treasure, through the Truman Doctrine... you think those were just money making gambits? Not a thing else, we just wanna take and take and take, that solely it, is it?
What was it exactly that we were going to get out of Vietnam? Exactly.
You posit that we had no intentions of assisting peoples who wanted to stay free in countries threatened by communism, we just wanted to slide our sticky fingers inside their grimy pockets. Am guessing the cow manure is stacked up so high around your view that you can see nothing else, and that you just don't smell its "sweetness" like you used to... but who knows, people can be born without olfactory perception, I suppose. You think we had no idea what Stalin had previously done to millions in his own country, what Mao had done in his? None of that played into our decision, it was all corporate, eh?
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