America's Oligarchs -- aka. 'The One Percent' -- and Property Rights

[sanman]

I see we're now into the latest buzzword -- Oligarchs -- as in Russian Oligarchs.

It seems to now be open season on Russians in general, even ordinary Russians who have no control over the actions of their govt. People are being told to denounce Putin or be shunned and ostracized.

But the desire to act goes even farther when it comes to Russian Oligarchs. It's now seen as totally fine to confiscate their money, assets, etc. Their property rights can be nullified at will, because they're allegedly all supporters of Vladimir Putin. For the West, these people are suddenly Kulaks who can be dispossessed. Wait -- wasn't that the sort of thing Stalin did?

Who else's property rights are dispensible? Who else can be legitimately dispossessed in the name of greater good?

What about the talk we've had about The One Percent? They're quite wealthy. Can't we call them Oligarchs too? Or is the word Oligarch only purely applicable to certain ethnic groups?

If we can refer to The One Percent as Oligarchs, then can they too be legitimately dispossessed and have their property confiscated from them? If not currently, then what circumstance would it take to warrant this?

If America and the West no longer respect property rights, then why would anyone in the West or outside of it realistically want to keep any of their wealth there

 

[JMB802]

I see we're now into the latest buzzword -- Oligarchs -- as in Russian Oligarchs.

It seems to now be open season on Russians in general, even ordinary Russians who have no control over the actions of their govt. People are being told to denounce Putin or be shunned and ostracized.

But the desire to act goes even farther when it comes to Russian Oligarchs. It's now seen as totally fine to confiscate their money, assets, etc. Their property rights can be nullified at will, because they're allegedly all supporters of Vladimir Putin. For the West, these people are suddenly Kulaks who can be dispossessed. Wait -- wasn't that the sort of thing Stalin did?

Who else's property rights are dispensible? Who else can be legitimately dispossessed in the name of greater good?

What about the talk we've had about The One Percent? They're quite wealthy. Can't we call them Oligarchs too? Or is the word Oligarch only purely applicable to certain ethnic groups?

If we can refer to The One Percent as Oligarchs, then can they too be legitimately dispossessed and have their property confiscated from them? If not currently, then what circumstance would it take to warrant this?

If America and the West no longer respect property rights, then why would anyone in the West or outside of it realistically want to keep any of their wealth there

If a US president orders an unprovoked invasion of Canada or Mexico, then sure, it should be okay to freeze US assets in the invaded country. And if other countries want to support the invaded country by freezing US assets as well, that's okay too.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

As much as it pains me to agree with anything you say, I have had the same thoughts regarding seizing private citizens property as a response to war, or some other undesirable activity.

Like pootins daughter or daughter in law or someones house in France. It was broken into and taken over and opened to Ukraine people. Either there is rule of law or there isnt.
If theres rule of law sometimes...that is a problem imo. My private property should still be mine even if my country starts a stupid phony "war"....such as was done in Iraq and Afghanistan for instance. And in Ukraine.

So this is just one of the many things where I see a double standard today, and I dont really agree with it.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

If a US president orders an unprovoked invasion of Canada or Mexico, then sure, it should be okay to freeze US assets in the invaded country. And if other countries want to support the invaded country by freezing US assets as well, that's okay too.

How about Iraq and/or Afghanistan and/or Vietnam?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

And if other countries want to support the invaded country by freezing US assets

We're talking about the property of private citizens here, not "US assets".

 

[JMB802]

How about Iraq and/or Afghanistan and/or Vietnam?

I compared apples to apples. Not going to go down a what-if rabbit hole because honestly, I don't really care that much. As far as I'm concerned Putin and his supporters can go **** themselves.

 

[sanman]

If a US president orders an unprovoked invasion of Canada or Mexico, then sure, it should be okay to freeze US assets in the invaded country. And if other countries want to support the invaded country by freezing US assets as well, that's okay too.

Just Canada or Mexico? Only when invading nextdoor?

What about the US Invasion of Iraq?

That killed a lot people, turned a lot of cities and towns into rubble.

There was a president in the whitehouse who ordered that. His name was Bush. He came from a pretty wealthy family. I don't know if you knew that, or if his name even occurred to you, for the sake of moral consistency?

The Bush family are one of the wealthiest in the United States. Would you call them Oligarchs?
I've heard the Bushes called Plutocrats -- is there some moral distinction there?

 

[JMB802]

We're talking about the property of private citizens here, not "US assets".

As if Putin and Russian Oligarchs haven't used Russian assets as their personal bank accounts for years.

 

[JMB802]

Just Canada or Mexico? Only when invading nextdoor?

What about the US Invasion of Iraq?

That killed a lot people, turned a lot of buildings into rubble.

There was a president in the whitehouse who ordered that. His name was Bush. He came from a pretty wealthy family. I don't know if you knew that, or if his name even occurred to you, for the sake of moral consistency?

His family is one of the wealthiest in the United States. Would you call him an Oligarch?

I repeat.

I compared apples to apples. Not going to go down a what-if rabbit hole because honestly, I don't really care that much. As far as I'm concerned Putin and his supporters can go **** themselves.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

As if Putin and Russian Oligarchs haven't used Russian assets as their personal bank accounts for years.

 

[Metric Mouse]

Just Canada or Mexico? Only when invading nextdoor?

What about the US Invasion of Iraq?

That killed a lot people, turned a lot of buildings into rubble.

There was a president in the whitehouse who ordered that. His name was Bush. He came from a pretty wealthy family. I don't know if you knew that, or if his name even occurred to you, for the sake of moral consistency?

The Bush family are one of the wealthiest in the United States. Would you call them Oligarchs?
I've heard the Bushes called Plutocrats -- is there some moral distinction there?

There's a reason that the world didn't sanction the United States for these actions; the world didn't care about brown or yellow people.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

I repeat.

I compared apples to apples. Not going to go down a what-if rabbit hole because honestly, I don't really care that much. As far as I'm concerned Putin and his supporters can go **** themselves.

OK, so if I am to understand correctly that is one vote for "I am OK with ignoring laws as long as many other people are also OK with ignoring laws, when it is politically acceptable and expedient".

 

[sanman]

I repeat.

I compared apples to apples. Not going to go down a what-if rabbit hole because honestly, I don't really care that much. As far as I'm concerned Putin and his supporters can go **** themselves.

Translation: Don't you be hatin on mah man Bush, just coz we be hatin on Putin! Destroyed Iraqi cities got nothin on the harrowing horrifying sight of destroyed Ukrainian cities.

I'm just trying to understand the moral logic here.

Stop messin with me! There's a clear difference here! Iraqi rubble cities be in Iraq! Ukrainian rubble be in Ukraine! See? Do I gotta spell it out for you?

I was hoping for a more meaningful description of the moral distinctions

Shut up! You an agent of Putin!

No, I'm not Russian, I'm not married to any Russian, don't have any Russian relatives. I've known both Russian & Ukrainian acquaintances, and they always got along with each other just fine.

Well then you from QAnon!

No, I'm not white myself, so I don't see that being the case either.

Well, just SHUT UP then! I'm tired of you challengin mah moral superiority!

 

[JMB802]

xx

Oh yeah, that's right. On paper, Putin makes $140k and lives in a small apartment.

 

[Peacenik]

We could do so much more in the USA if we would simply tax the rich far more.

Better public services, a better education system, a better (as in realistically reaching for the goal) approach to the climate crisis, for starters.

A vastly improved education system.

Free college or trade training for those who maintain a good GPA.

Free daycare. Free or very low cost healthcare for all. Including widely available free mental health care (so very badly needed.)

A housing program to get people into homes that they own and can build wealth with.

Basically, make America greater, and reduce the wealth gap.

Pay down the federal debt. Make America more secure.

Imagine the possibilities.

 

[JMB802]

Translation: Don't you be hatin on mah man Bush, just coz we be hatin on Putin! Destroyed Iraqi cities got nothin on the harrowing horrifying site of destroyed Ukrainian cities.

I'm just trying to understand the moral logic here.

WTF? Don't put words in my mouth. I am under no obligation to follow you down your rabbit holes.

 

[charliebrown]

The more governments subvert the laws of the lands, the less free we all are. I really hate what is going on in Ukraine but it does not mean we should subvert the laws as punishment. Cannot stand what is going on in Russia. Was their a court hearing and due process to confirm a private property owner is directly or indirectly involved in the actions of a government?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

We could do so much more in the USA if we would simply tax the rich far more.

Better public services, a better education system, a better (as in realistically reaching for the goal) approach to the climate crisis, for starters.

A vastly improved education system.

Free college or trade training for those who maintain a good GPA.

Free daycare. Free or very low cost healthcare for all. Including widely available free mental health care (so very badly needed.)

A housing program to get people into homes that they own and can build wealth with.

Basically, make America greater, and reduce the wealth gap.

Pay down the federal debt. Make America more secure.

Imagine the possibilities.

OK. I agree, and that would make a FANTASTIC conversation starter IMO.

BUT: WTF does it have to do with the OP?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

There's a reason that the world didn't sanction the United States for these actions; the world didn't care about brown or yellow people.

I think it has more to do with the color green than brown or yellow.
They didnt want the Great Satan, the dollar grubbing US, to punish them financially if they developed too many "morals". Morals and dollar grubbing are really bad bedfellows.

 

[Metric Mouse]

I think it has more to do with the color green than brown or yellow.
They didnt want the Great Satan, the dollar grubbing US, to punish them financially if they developed too many "morals". Morals and dollar grubbing are really bad bedfellows.

While I agree in principle, that other nations will throw anyone under the bus to suck up to the United States, Iraq and Iran both have higher GDPs than Ukraine. If it were only about money, they would care at least a similar amount about those people.

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Translation: Don't you be hatin on mah man Bush, just coz we be hatin on Putin! Destroyed Iraqi cities got nothin on the harrowing horrifying site of destroyed Ukrainian cities.

I'm just trying to understand the moral logic here.

Stop messin with me! There's a clear difference here! Iraqi rubble cities be in Iraq! Ukrainian rubble be in Ukraine! See? Do I gotta spell it out for you?

I was hoping for a more meaningful description of the moral distinctions

Shut up! You an agent of Putin!

No, I'm not Russian, I'm not married to any Russian, don't have any Russian relatives. I've had both Russian & Ukrainians acquaintances, and they always got along with each just fine.

Well then you from QAnon!

No, I'm not white myself, so I don't see that being the case either.

Well, just SHUT UP then! I'm tired of you challengin mah moral superiority!

I know this guy, an associate of mine. Known him for a long time, man what a toolbag. He's a multimillionaire and a business associate.

For years he was really disgusting with his support of the phony "wars" the US has in the Mid East, it was all hilarious and big fun. Ya know, we should bomb the whole place to glass and all that. (Even though nobody there ever did a darn thing to him or his family.)

Now his indignation and sense of humanity and morality over what is going on in Ukraine is just nauseating. Its such a juxtaposition, and really does make me want to vomit. I dont say much about it, I know how this guy is and we have a mutual business arrangement that I want to keep going, I dont agree with him other than to say "Yeah its horrible dude, stupid unnecessary wars are horrible and should never happen."

This guy really sees himself as some kind of moral authority, and after shrieking in approval for the murder of Iraqis and Afghans, I do get nauseous. Its typical of Americans though. I see a LOT of that. No self awareness.

 

[sanman]

WTF? Don't put words in my mouth. I am under no obligation to follow you down your rabbit holes.

Haha - it's just a "rabbit hole" - like those holes in the ground Iraqi kids have to live in -- coz their cities and infrastructure and families got bombed to shit.

When that happens, it's just another Oxfam commercial - or it's "collateral damage" - phrases reserved for other people, not blonde blue-eyed people. No war crimes there.

No point in going down rabbit holes to chase after such issues relating to such people who we don't need to think about at a time like this. There are more important people to think about.

 

[JMB802]

Haha - it's just a "rabbit hole" - like those holes in the ground Iraqi kids have to live in -- coz their cities and infrastructure and families got bombed to shit.

When that happens, it's just another Oxfam commercial - or it's "collateral damage" - phrases reserved for other people, not blonde blue-eyed people.

Is it possible for you to respond to my comments without resorting to a logical fallacy?

 

[sanman]

Is it possible for you to respond to my comments without resorting to a logical fallacy?

Why should it only fall to other countries to seize assets of Oligarchs like the Bushes?

Why can't people in the United States seek the seizure of those assets?

 

[JMB802]

Why should it only fall to other countries to seize assets of Oligarchs like the Bushes?

Why can't people in the United States seek the seizure of those assets?

So, the answer to the question, "Is it possible for you to reply to my comments without using a logical fallacy?" is ... no, it is not possible.

Have a lovely day.