America's Corporate Taxes are SO HIGH that... [W:49]

[head of joaquin]

So what? My family put 8 kids through Yale and they formed an Alumni association, too!

Hell, my ancestors FOUNDED Yale!

Yeah, don't you love Turtle's online persona. He can be anything he wants to be -- online.

Needless to say, it's a distraction and an attempt by him to avoid an argument on the merits, which he has lost in this case already.

 

[Captain Adverse]

The point was simply to note that anyone who really wants a job in the US only has to move to ND. There is job growth elsewhere as well, but ND is such a fine example I couldn't resist. Your errors re GNP and prices remain uncorrected as well.

Sorry, was having a problem with my laptop, trying to do simultaneous rsearch. Let me do some research to make sure I am not talking of of my rectal orafice and I'll get back to you on that. Okay? I have been know to make mistakes based on past experiences and not doing up to date research. But I also admit my mistakes when I discover them.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Companies seek to serve a demand, and the largest demand comes from the US. You can keep trying to blame corporations, but until you realize that they only serve existing demand it will be a false argument. If US citizens really wanted US jobs, they would insist that the products they purchase be made in the US. Until that occurs, all the whining about outsourcing is moot...

I'm not talking about "supply and demand," I'm talking about jobs and transfer of industry. Apparently we are not on the same sheet of music here.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I'm not talking about "supply and demand," I'm talking about jobs and transfer of industry. Apparently we are not on the same sheet of music here.

They sort of go hand in hand when you realize the underlying components of demand...

 

[Captain Adverse]

They sort of go hand in hand when you realize the underlying components of demand...

I acknowledged we have a high demand for goods and services. We've been indoctrinated by advertising to be rabid consumers ever since the early 50's (perhaps even before). How does that translate into "don't hire Americans, send the jobs overseas?" Or "don't maintain industry here, transfer it overseas?"

Granted, there are new growing markets in those nations (China, India, Indonesia) and giving them work means they can buy the products, but it also means WE have fewer opportunities to work, so fewer of us can earn money to buy the products.

 

[Jack Hays]

Sorry, was having a problem with my laptop, trying to do simultaneous rsearch. Let me do some research to make sure I am not talking of of my rectal orafice and I'll get back to you on that. Okay? I have been know to make mistakes based on past experiences and not doing up to date research. But I also admit my mistakes when I discover them.

Fair enough.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I acknowledged we have a high demand for goods and services. We've been indoctrinated by advertising to be rabid consumers ever since the early 50's (perhaps even before). How does that translate into "don't hire Americans, send the jobs overseas?" Or "don't maintain industry here, transfer it overseas?"

Granted, there are new growing markets in those nations (China, India, Indonesia) and giving them work means they can buy the products, but it also means WE have fewer opportunities to work, so fewer of us can earn money to buy the products.

Price...

 

[washunut]

Nothing you said refuted the fact that corporate taxes ARE NOT TOO HIGH. In fact they are nonexistent for many corporations.

Your nonsense of whether we are better off with or without Facebook is off topic and a straw-man argument to boot. Nobody argued that Facebook should not exist. No one. The point here is right wingers are lying when they say corporate taxes are too high.

If you're going to rant and panic, then at least stay on topic.

I think you get confused between tax RATES being too high versus taxes being too high. What many people on both sides of the aisle understand is that we need to lower the rates and eliminate some deductions.

As to people saying that Facebook paid no taxes. Do you say the same thing about people who pay no income tax, or do you want to count payroll taxes, which FB also pays. Does this include state and local taxes and sales taxes. How much income tax did the leaders of FB pay in California income tax, due to stock sales.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Price...

Ah you are saying because they can make them cheaper overseas they can sell them to us cheaper. Well, actually they don't necessarily sell them cheaper, they seem to maintain the old price or increase it slightly for inflation, but since they use cheaper labor and materials they make greater profits.

I mean you could sell a t-shirt in the USA for $40 if it were made in the USA, but you'd make less profit because it would only cost you $2 for labor in Indonesia (and say $5 for materials and a couple more for fixed costs) but $10.50 for labor (and say $10 for materials, and $5 for fixed costs).

But since you've taken that $10 an hour job away from the American, he can't afford to buy the TV from the other guy, who still has American workers, and they get laid off and can't buy YOUR $40 t-shirt from you either. So you have a higher profit, but from fewer American consumers.

Currently thats not a major problem because people are extending their buying power with credit, but that can't last forever. Eventually the credit bubble will burst like the other banking mortgage and investment travesties. What then?

 

[CriticalThought]

that's just stupid. corporations provide jobs and wealth.

No they don't. Jobs are a cost to corporations and they will do everything they can to eliminate as much as possible even to the point that they will subcontract slave labor in sweatshops if they can get away with it.

And not all corporations inherently create wealth. Many simply siphon off the natural resources exploited by countries led by brutal dictators who sell out their country. Others live off government contracts. Some siphon off wealth from other corporations rather than making any new wealth of their own. And the few that actually create new wealth are usually bought out by conglomerates which are owned by shareholders who seek a bottom line that means lobbying for policies that restrict new business growth and promote the creation of oligarchies.

It does not surprise me that you have such a rosy view of corporations. And of course they pay a larger share of the taxes when the use a larger share of the public goods. I don't use as much road as a trucking company!

 

[TurtleDude]

No they don't. Jobs are a cost to corporations and they will do everything they can to eliminate as much as possible even to the point that they will subcontract slave labor in sweatshops if they can get away with it.

And not all corporations inherently create wealth. Many simply siphon off the natural resources exploited by countries led by brutal dictators who sell out their country. Others live off government contracts. Some siphon off wealth from other corporations rather than making any new wealthy of their own. And the few that actually create new wealth are usually bought out by conglomerates which are owned by shareholders who seek a bottom line that means lobbying for policies that restrict new business growth and the creation of oligarchies.

It does not surprise me that you have such a rosy view of corporations. And of course they pay a larger share of the taxes when the use a larger share of the public goods. I don't use as much road as a trucking company!

a most interesting libertarian perspective. where does all the wealth come from?

 

[CriticalThought]

a most interesting libertarian perspective.

A REALISTIC perspective. Capitalism is dirty business. It is self interest on a large scale. I am not going to sell some dumbass vision of empathetic corporations or pretend that capitalism is some glorious, perfect system guided by the rational invisible hand of the market. It is the least imperfect system of all the imperfect economic systems ever conceived by man. Corporations are led by people and left to their own devices they will seek to limit competition and other market forces and use the government to fix the game in their favor as much as possible. At this point in time, it is the best system humans have for distributing resources and promoting progress and advancement, but it would be ludicrous to try to pass off rhetoric like "corporations create jobs and wealth" when that isn't the purpose of corporations. They exist to make a profit. That doesn't mean they make new wealth. That does not mean they make new jobs in the good ol' USA. They exist to distribute as many resources as possible to the people who own them and the people who run them. That is it. It is disgusting to a libertarian to have people try to sell this rainbow land version of capitalism where corporations are "job creators" and "wealth generators". If I go plant a garden and sell my produce at a flea market, I would be creating more real new wealth than many corporations out there and I would be employing more American labor than a lot of them out there.

 

[TurtleDude]

A REALISTIC perspective. Capitalism is dirty business. It is self interest on a large scale. I am not going to sell some dumbass vision of empathetic corporations or pretend that capitalism is some glorious, perfect system guided by the rational invisible hand of the market. It is the least imperfect system of all the imperfect economic systems ever conceived by man. Corporations are led by people and left to their own devices they will seek to limit competition and other market forces and use the government to fix the game in their favor as much as possible. At this point in time, it is the best system humans have for distributing resources and promoting progress and advancement, but it would be ludicrous to try to pass off rhetoric like "corporations create jobs and wealth" when that isn't the purpose of corporations. They exist to make a profit. That doesn't mean they make new wealth. That does not mean they make new jobs in the good ol' USA. They exist to distribute as many resources as possible to the people who own them and the people who run them. That is it. It is disgusting to a libertarian to have people try to sell this rainbow land version of capitalism where corporations are "job creators" and "wealth generators". If I go plant a garden and sell my produce at a flea market, I would be creating more real new wealth than many corporations out there and I would be employing more American labor than a lot of them out there.

government attempts to modify "that dirty business" (I reject that claim) tend to be far worse a cure than the disease you rail against. Governments have killed 100 million people in the last 100 years-much of it inspired by "good intentions"

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Yep, theory, but I'm glad you see it is a 'theory'. Plenty of state intervention going on all over the place.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

Price...

Yep, and the consequences to cheap prices is growing the welfare state. Nothing comes at a cheap price without sacrifice. We happen to sacrifice the workers.

 

[274ina]

The new KINGS of the world...................All HAIL the KING!

 

[Lord of Planar]

The corporate tax rate is too high. That said, there are too many deductions and credits too.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Fair enough.

Okay, I was unable to find a clear-cut source outlining price comparisons world-wide, although I found that in some European markets consumer goods were priced higher, while in some Third World markets (but here it was difficult to determine product quality equivalency) they were lower, than US markets. Therefore, since the price comparison does not show a universal trend of American lowest prices being higher than the highest outside our borders, I am willing to back off from that assertion.

However, most recent financial information shows our current GDP to be shrinking ( ex. GDP Shrinks, Stocks Soar, Go Figure? ), and that it has been fluctuating down and up for several years with each UP return trend being lower than prior "up" years. When taken in comparison with the growth of government deficits, I stand by my position that it is shrinking over time.

Is this a satisfactory reply?

 

[washunut]

Okay, I was unable to find a clear-cut source outlining price comparisons world-wide, although I found that in some European markets consumer goods were priced higher, while in some Third World markets (but here it was difficult to determine product quality equivalency) they were lower, than US markets. Therefore, since the price comparison does not show a universal trend of American lowest prices being higher than the highest outside our borders, I am willing to back off from that assertion.

However, most recent financial information shows our current GDP to be shrinking ( ex. GDP Shrinks, Stocks Soar, Go Figure? ), and that it has been fluctuating down and up for several years with each UP return trend being lower than prior "up" years. When taken in comparison with the growth of government deficits, I stand by my position that it is shrinking over time.

Is this a satisfactory reply?

Please re-read the link you posted. The paragraph states that the economy GREW MORE SLOWLY in Q1 than the number originally posted. Also remember that this was a Q1 revision and people in markets tend to be forward looking (as best they can) versus looking at prior period data.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Please re-read the link you posted. The paragraph states that the economy GREW MORE SLOWLY in Q1 than the number originally posted. Also remember that this was a Q1 revision and people in markets tend to be forward looking (as best they can) versus looking at prior period data.

But my point is that the GDP is shrinking over time, meaning it is still usually in the positive at the end of most years, but is getting progressively smaller oveall as time goes by. That by sending our industry and supporting jobs overseas, American corporations are enlarging the GDP's of those nations at our expense. That our GDP includes the reported profits of those same companies, mostly due to savings by shipping their production overseas.

That does not help OUR economy in any real way when we, the workers, are losing job opportunities while increasing our spending and debt purchasing products made by plants and workers overseas.

 

[washunut]

But my point is that the GDP is shrinking over time, meaning it is still usually in the positive at the end of most years, but is getting progressively smaller oveall as time goes by. That by sending our industry and supporting jobs overseas, American corporations are enlarging the GDP's of those nations at our expense. That our GDP includes the reported profits of those same companies, mostly due to savings by shipping their production overseas.

That does not help OUR economy in any real way when we, the workers, are losing job opportunities while increasing our spending and debt purchasing products made by plants and workers overseas.

The economy is in a rut and has been growing at this pace for a couple of years. It is to simple minded to blame the evil corporations for moving jobs. Let's remember that their fastest growing markets are overseas, not here. Also if Americans did a better of of buying American, you would see that corporations would follow their customers wants. For decades Americans have essentially said, we want whichever brand is cheapest don't but out of loyalty to American workers.

 

[Captain Adverse]

The economy is in a rut and has been growing at this pace for a couple of years. It is to simple minded to blame the evil corporations for moving jobs. Let's remember that their fastest growing markets are overseas, not here. Also if Americans did a better of of buying American, you would see that corporations would follow their customers wants. For decades Americans have essentially said, we want whichever brand is cheapest don't but out of loyalty to American workers.

I disagee that it is just a matter of buying "American." It's a combination of financial errors starting with our system going to a Fractional Reserve Banking system (where the Fed can print as much valueless money as it wants based on nothing more than "we need it for economic investments), increasing inflation, higher prices leading to demands for higher pay; higher pay cutting into corporate profits; and a whole slew of other issues which enabled Corporations to justify their actions.

So I'm not going to seek car tires in a state where the small company is all-American when I live half-way around the nation away. The shipping and handling costs alone would make the effort less economically worthwhile. Much as I would LIKE to support purely "American" companies, I can't always afford it.

 

[washunut]

I disagee that it is just a matter of buying "American." It's a combination of financial errors starting with our system going to a Fractional Reserve Banking system (where the Fed can print as much valueless money as it wants based on nothing more than "we need it for economic investments), increasing inflation, higher prices leading to demands for higher pay; higher pay cutting into corporate profits; and a whole slew of other issues which enabled Corporations to justify their actions.

So I'm not going to seek car tires in a state where the small company is all-American when I live half-way around the nation away. The shipping and handling costs alone would make the effort less economically worthwhile. Much as I would LIKE to support purely "American" companies, I can't always afford it.

I did not mean to say that it any one single reason. We have a large, complex economy and I just pointed out one problem. Corporations are not perfect and may be a part of the problem, but there are many reasons why we have the economy we do.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I did not mean to say that it any one single reason. We have a large, complex economy and I just pointed out one problem. Corporations are not perfect and may be a part of the problem, but there are many reasons why we have the economy we do.

On this we can agree. My original point was it would "help" if American Corporations practiced a little "enlightened self-interest." Basically by keeping jobs and industry HERE in the USA so that WE could afford to keep buying THEIR stuff.

 

[washunut]

On this we can agree. My original point was it would "help" if American Corporations practiced a little "enlightened self-interest." Basically by keeping jobs and industry HERE in the USA so that WE could afford to keep buying THEIR stuff.

Refer back to the last part of your response in post #72. Not sure that the enlightened self interest works in that case. Yes we do need to have a better industrial policy to maintain manufacturing jobs in the U.S. That involves having a real energy policy, a corporate tax code that works, a workforce that has the skills needed etc.

Using your example how does Apple hiring 1,000 workers in California out somewhere out West to assemble some phones enrich the millions of people buying their phones on the East coast?