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America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamentalism

Are there any differences between the christian right and islamic radicals?


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jamesrage

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

You're inputs?
Source

IF there were cases of Christians in the past ten years beheading people,killing people over bible desecration,flying planes into buildings,sending in suicide bombers to bomb a bus a load of people,carrying signs that say behead those who insult Christianity and so on you might have a point.The funny thing is if we want to Muslim brutality all we got to do is turn the news on,if we want to see the same level of brutality commit by Christians we have to look in a history book.
 

tecoyah

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

The WoT is without doubt a battle against radical Islam. I don't judge all Iranians on the statements and actions of Ahmadinejad. Are ordinary Iranians less sensible than I?

I hope not....but my hope does not change the propoganda it seems inundates many muslim societies. You , Tashah, are not brought up with a hatred of the Muslim world, and thus dont have indoctrination to feed into your beliefs. Isreali Media does not slant everything in such a way to make Islam the great Satan, nor does it portray the Iranian people as heathen followers of Evil. From what I have seen of Iranian propoganda, the United States is portrayed in a very negative light from birth, by Clerics, and media alike.....Bush has simply given powerful ammunition to the machine already in place to create hatred.
 

Tashah

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

From what I have seen of Iranian propoganda, the United States is portrayed in a very negative light from birth, by Clerics, and media alike.....Bush has simply given powerful ammunition to the machine already in place to create hatred.
Iran was in violation of the NPT well before Mr. Bush entered the Oval Office. I'm not defending Bush's many bad policy decisions, but to imagine all would be well with Iran under a different US president is misleading and illusionary.
 

jfuh

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

IF there were cases of Christians in the past ten years beheading people,killing people over bible desecration,flying planes into buildings,sending in suicide bombers to bomb a bus a load of people,carrying signs that say behead those who insult Christianity and so on you might have a point.The funny thing is if we want to Muslim brutality all we got to do is turn the news on,if we want to see the same level of brutality commit by Christians we have to look in a history book.
Read the book "With god on their side" by Esther Kaplan then get back to me.
As for in the news, anyone wanna help me out with that group of morons that went to protest against returning soldiers funerals waving their hate slogans and so on?
The point james. is that fundamentalism regardless of whether it be a moon and star or cross are dangerous. As you have to limit your question to the last 10 years is proof of even your recognition of Christian fundamentalists.
Simply that they do not perform public decapitations anymore does not symbolize that they are not making effects to a greater degree, just not so graphic.
 

jamesrage

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Read the book "With god on their side" by Esther Kaplan then get back to me.

Who the hell is Esther Kaplan?
As for in the news, anyone wanna help me out with that group of morons that went to protest against returning soldiers funerals waving their hate slogans and so on?

A bunch of attention whores with some liberal anti-war agenda and god hates fags campaign,wow that sure does sound the same as all that all other crap going on in the ME by Islamo-nazis.

The point james. is that fundamentalism regardless of whether it be a moon and star or cross are dangerous.

To a liberal a Christian fundamentalist is someone who believes in creation instead of evolution,against abortion,against gay marriage,against sex change operations ands believes in the literal interpretation of the bible.

As you have to limit your question to the last 10 years is proof of even your recognition of Christian fundamentalists.
Simply that they do not perform public decapitations anymore does not symbolize that they are not making effects to a greater degree, just not so graphic.


To be fair when was the last time Christians beheaded someone,flew planes into buildings sent suicide bombers into buses?
 

Hatuey

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

A bunch of attention whores with some liberal anti-war agenda and god hates fags campaign,wow that sure does sound the same as all that all other crap going on in the ME by Islamo-nazis.

God hates fags and liberal anti-war agenda don't add up.

What liberal do you know is anti war and anti gay?
 

jamesrage

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

God hates fags and liberal anti-war agenda don't add up.

What liberal do you know is anti war and anti gay?

Considering the democrats history with the KKK I would have to say there are lots of liberals out there who are not only anti-war but they are also anti-gay.As I am sure others have pointed out liberalism is not progressive.
 

doughgirl

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Jfuh, “As for in the news, anyone wanna help me out with that group of morons that went to protest against returning soldiers funerals waving their hate slogans and so on?”


It makes me sick to my stomach. How people can be so cold and unfeeling. These people call themselves Christians are deluded. They are the opposite and do NOT act Christ-like.



”No true Christian should ever defend these people the their actions. Obviously they are not doing anything illegal. God will still judge them even if our laws won’t.
“The point james. is that fundamentalism regardless of whether it be a moon and star or cross are dangerous.”


Why do you think this? Please give examples. I would classify myself as a fundamental christian. How am I dangerous?

“Simply that they do not perform public decapitations anymore does not symbolize that they are not making effects to a greater degree, just not so graphic.”


Oh come on…….this statement is way out of line. Where in the world are large groups of Christians FORCING people to convert, or else? Where are they killing people? Where in the United States are Christians forcing anyone to do anything they don’t want to do?
You will always find isolated cases, but find examples that compare to Islam.
 

Vader

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Christian radicals do not blow themselves up in the name of christ and they do not use elementery schools as brainwashing zones.

Islamic radicals are guilty of doing both.

:shock:
 

talloulou

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

I accidently voted the opposite of what I intended to. But in any event they are very different. Personally I don't believe there are that many "fundamentalists" of any religion in our country unless you get into the mormons in Utah. Most of the religious people in the US are not that strict or disciplined with their religious beliefs. Anotherwards you are way more likely to find people in the US who will say I'm such and such religion but I don't agree with this or that ect in regards to certain parts of their chosen religion's dogma. In fact more and more non-denominational live and let live style churches are cropping up faster than McDonalds. Now that's not to say that you won't find the occasional "whack job" out there from any religion. Those will always exist. But the problem with the type of fundamental islam that exists in the middle east is that dogma exists in an enviroment where it is allowed to fester and grow dangerous. Personally I think that could happen with any religion. Given the right set of circumstances people can get fanatical about any belief including atheism. But our current environment in the United States is not, in my opinion, currently the type of environment capable of producing large amounts of extremism thus you can't compare America's Christian conservatives or even American born Muslims with Islamic Fundamentalists in the middle east.
 

128shot

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

It is true that the majority of European colonists were christians it was the majority religion at the time of the country's founding and has remained by far the dominant religion through the history of our country. There is no doubt that the country was settled by Christians and has been populated by a Christian majority.

However, its commonly said that the United States is a Christian nation. To examine this, Declaration of independence, The Constitution, Treaty of Tripoly and The Founding Fathers.

The Declaration of Independence

There are no specific references to Christianity or Jesus in this document. There are a few references to a 'Nature's God' who is the creator of life, giver of rights and 'supreme Judge of the world' but that is rather vague.

Such as here

"the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them"

Note specifically, that it describes 'Natures God' this is a more generic idea of god, this is god as nature.

"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights

This does describes God as a creator of life and giver of rights but goes no further.

"appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions"

Here God is the 'Supreme Judge'.

It is expected that people of the time would speak of a god, there was little to no doubt at that time of God's existence, but there was plenty of doubt about Christianity among the framers. In order to justify their defiance of the King they had to invoke a higher authority and make the case that they were endowed with the higher power's blessing.


The Consitution

The constitution is a godless document. It mentions neither God, Jesus nor Christianity. It does however have a provision against requiring specific religious ideas as a qualification for office.

Article VI, Section 3
"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."


Treaty of Tripoli

In Article 11 of the treaty of Tripoli it states

"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen..."

Here again, the government offically states that we are not a christian nation.

The Founding Fathers

Even though the majority of Americans at the time were Christians, several of the key figures in politics were Deists. They rejected the specific beliefs of religion and Christianity.

John Adams the 2nd president, Proposed and signed the Treaty of Tripoli

In a letter to John Taylor he writes

"Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years".

In a letter to Thomas Jefferson he writes

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles."

Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president, Drafted Declaration of Independence, Signer of Constitution, influential on 1st Amendment, says this

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, 'Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,' which was rejected 'By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"



Not really a better arguement than that eh.
 

Jerry

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

You're inputs?
Source

Categorically, any Christian action you give which resembles Islamic terrorism I will declare to be the work of Liberal Christian fundamentalism, as such actions run counter to the definition of conservatism.

Conservative Muslim fundamentalists do not commit acts of terrorism, and neither do conservative christian fundamentalists such as myself.

Army-of-God = liberal
The Nuremberg List = liberal
 

cherokee

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

The WoT is without doubt a battle against radical Islam. I don't judge all Iranians on the statements and actions of Ahmadinejad. Are ordinary Iranians less sensible than I?

Tashah thats my job....;)
 

Columbusite

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

So, can we agree that both groups have a disturbing preponderance of accepting things on blind faith regarding religion and that both believe that if it is good enough for them it is good enough for all of us even if it has to be imposed on us? I'm going to take issue with one thing that was said earlier about the NT in the Bible being about love and forgiveness unlike the OT. The NT is still a brutish book, especially if taken literally. The NT also condones slavery, just look at Ephesians 6:5, "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ" and the 1st book of Peter 2:18 "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward." The NT is pro-autocracy, not pro-representative democracy or pro-liberal democracy as we see in this passage in Peter preceding the one on slavery; 2:17 "Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.." The NT condones the execution of gay people in Romans. In Peter you have the subjugation of women. Of course, there are other passages in the NT which repeat the all of the above. And the downside to Jesus is that he said, according to the Bible, that if you don't follow him you'll be tortured forever and that he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. The NT doesn't sound all that loving if you take all of it as is. On the level of violence between fundamentalists on both sides, I'm leaning towards the theory that Christians have gotten most of their violence out of their system, whereas Islam came about over 600 years after Christianity and therefore they are where Christians were 600 years ago. It's no coincidence that this is the year 1427 according to the Islamic calender and boy, does it show.
 

Columbusite

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Considering the democrats history with the KKK I would have to say there are lots of liberals out there who are not only anti-war but they are also anti-gay.As I am sure others have pointed out liberalism is not progressive.

Categorically, any Christian action you give which resembles Islamic terrorism I will declare to be the work of Liberal Christian fundamentalism, as such actions run counter to the definition of conservatism.

Conservative Muslim fundamentalists do not commit acts of terrorism, and neither do conservative christian fundamentalists such as myself.

Army-of-God = liberal
The Nuremberg List = liberal

Just goes to show you can have thousands of posts and not learn a thing if that's what you set out to do. "Liberal" comes from the word "liberty". I am a liberal because I support as much liberty as possible for all people. I feel that best describes what liberalism is all about in a nutshell. To be against equality of others, to deprive them of freedom like the Democrats of old is the antithesis of liberalism. You can't be a liberal and make such and such fellow citizens 2nd class citizens. As for Christians liberally interpreting the Bible that has nothing to do with ones stance on freedom since it's a different definition of the word "liberal". Suffice it to say, I'm going to start a thread on political labels/terminology and discuss why some terms are good and others not-so-much. "Conservative" without a qualifier doesn't mean anything. I could safely be described as "conservative" for wanting to conserve our liberal founding document, the Constitution, but that doesn't mean I am socially conservative or religiously conservative.
 

ChristopherHall

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Christian Conservatives are not as radical as the Islamic Extremists.
 

Jerry

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Just goes to show you can have thousands of posts and not learn a thing if that's what you set out to do.

One who begins his post with an ad-Hom losses all credibility to question the logic of others.
 

jfuh

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

Categorically, any Christian action you give which resembles Islamic terrorism I will declare to be the work of Liberal Christian fundamentalism, as such actions run counter to the definition of conservatism.

Conservative Muslim fundamentalists do not commit acts of terrorism, and neither do conservative christian fundamentalists such as myself.

Army-of-God = liberal
The Nuremberg List = liberal
If they were simply conservative - no issue. However when you stick in fundamentalist as you have - tthen yes, they feel a natural sense of self rightoueness and thus naturally entitled to certain actions that they believe god allow or bestows upon them - leading then the fundamentalists acts - ie terrorism.
By no definition I have seen can I find any category of liberalism that can encompass the army of god or nuremberg list you've described perhaps you can offer up that definition and explain it some more?
I also seriously doubt you to be a christian fundamentalists hardcore maybe, but not quite to the point of fundamentalism.
 

Jerry

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

If they were simply conservative - no issue. However when you stick in fundamentalist as you have - tthen yes, they feel a natural sense of self rightoueness and thus naturally entitled to certain actions that they believe god allow or bestows upon them - leading then the fundamentalists acts - ie terrorism.
By no definition I have seen can I find any category of liberalism that can encompass the army of god or nuremberg list you've described perhaps you can offer up that definition and explain it some more?
I also seriously doubt you to be a christian fundamentalists hardcore maybe, but not quite to the point of fundamentalism.

I am a conservative fundamentalist, are you saying that I am a terrorist?

Perhaps the operative word is "radical".
 

jfuh

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

I am a conservative fundamentalist, are you saying that I am a terrorist?

Perhaps the operative word is "radical".
If you are arrogant to facts then yes you are fundie, otherwis you are not. I don't beleive I've called anyone a terrorist.
 

1069

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

If you are arrogant to facts then yes you are fundie, otherwis you are not. I don't beleive I've called anyone a terrorist.

"Arrogant to facts"...? What do you mean by that?
Do you mean oblivious to facts?
 

jfuh

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

"Arrogant to facts"...? What do you mean by that?
Do you mean oblivious to facts?
:doh yeah that.
 

1069

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

:doh yeah that.

Well, that makes sense.
Fundamentalists of any religion tend to place blind faith above facts; when the two are in conflict, they'll blatantly ignore facts.
 

Jerry

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

If you are arrogant to facts then yes you are fundie, otherwis you are not. I don't beleive I've called anyone a terrorist.

I have no idea what "arrogant to facts" is supposed to mean, but one is defined as a Christian Fundi by holding 5 ideals as true:
1. Inerrancy of the Scriptures
2. The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus
3. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement through God's grace and human faith
4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus
5. The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his premillennial second coming)
 

Columbusite

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Re: America's Christian conservatives are not much different than Islamist fundamenta

One who begins his post with an ad-Hom losses all credibility to question the logic of others.

Not if it's true.
 
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