• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

American's right when it comes to Christianity and Capitalism.

Quoting the bible is easy. Making cogent arguments about it, is another matter.
Answer Paul, not me.



The time that counts is the time of the gospel. What happened in Israel 6th century BCE may be interesting, but it's not the gospel of Christ.
But the gospel of Christ is founded upon it.



Another false dichotomy from the doctrinal types. Paul said it best, the Hebrew Scriptures are great stuff, good for edification, but that's it. Anybody who thinks the Hebrew Scriptures will save them is almost by definition not a Christian.

So again, I find it odd I have to point out the obvious to the doctrinal types. It's like the essence of Christianity -- the gospel -- embarrasses them.
You embrace Paul when he says what you like, yet dismiss him when he says something you don't. It's amusing.
 
Answer Paul, not me.



But the gospel of Christ is founded upon it.



You embrace Paul when he says what you like, yet dismiss him when he says something you don't. It's amusing.

Paul had no use for the Hebrew Scriptures, except for "edification". He didn't preach Deuteronomy; he preached the Jesus narrative. See 1 Cor 15.

So I'm not quite sure what nontextual doctrine you're referring to now. There are so many.

3 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

Nothing here about "saving"
 
Paul had no use for the Hebrew Scriptures, except for "edification". He didn't preach Deuteronomy; he preached the Jesus narrative. See 1 Cor 15.

So I'm not quite sure what nontextual doctrine you're referring to now. There are so many.

3 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

Nothing here about "saving"
Oh, Head. You really need to do some reading. You're not even understanding what you're quoting. So maybe some introspection, too. Not my advice - just a suggestion. You can do with it what you want, and I expect that to include dismissal of it all.
 
Paul had no use for the Hebrew Scriptures, except for "edification". He didn't preach Deuteronomy; he preached the Jesus narrative. See 1 Cor 15.
I Cor 15:3ff: 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

In reading your own reference to I Cor 15, it seems to me Paul not only used the Scriptures, but he based the very fundamentals of his gospel on them.

Jesus did as well, asserting He didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them (Mt 5:17)

Indeed, the Scriptures are critical to the gospel inasmuch as it is in Jesus that all the prophecies of Scripture are fulfilled. Hardly reason to claim Paul "had no use for them," don't you think?
 
I Cor 15:3ff: 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

In reading your own reference to I Cor 15, it seems to me Paul not only used the Scriptures, but he based the very fundamentals of his gospel on them.

Jesus did as well, asserting He didn't come to abolish them, but to fulfill them (Mt 5:17)

Indeed, the Scriptures are critical to the gospel inasmuch as it is in Jesus that all the prophecies of Scripture are fulfilled. Hardly reason to claim Paul "had no use for them," don't you think?

And the scriptures Paul is referring to here are . . .?

It's quite an interesting question, in fact, but what's clear it isn't the Hebrew Scriptures, which don't say anything about the messiah rising on the third day (at least not in any literal way). So what scriptures are these?
 
Last edited:
Oh, Head. You really need to do some reading. You're not even understanding what you're quoting. So maybe some introspection, too. Not my advice - just a suggestion. You can do with it what you want, and I expect that to include dismissal of it all.

I love it when I show that the doctrinal types have made things up that don't exist in the gospel or epistles, and their only response is that I need to read more. Oh the irony.
 
And the scriptures Paul is referring to here are . . .?


It's quite an interesting question, in fact, but what's clear it isn't the Hebrew Scriptures, which don't say anything about the messiah rising on the third day (at least not in any literal way). So what scriptures are these?
No, the Scriptures aren't literal about the messiah rising on the third day, but Jesus Himself explained it using Jonah...

“An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth..." (Mt 12:39ff)

Additionally, every other major aspect of the Messiah is well-documented in Scripture - His birth, His death, His suffering, His resurrection... which I don't think we need to address here either - or do we?

But you put forth 1 Cor 15 - and that for the specific purpose of asserting that Paul "had no use for Scripture," and I've demonstrated how just 3 verses into the chapter that it is your passage that proves just the opposite of what you'd asserted.

...unless of course it is also your assertion that Scripture is irrelevant, or worse, wrong?

For what it's worth, Jesus' disciples, who were undoubtedly well versed in Scripture themselves, needed Him to explain many of them - something He spent a fair amount of time doing after His resurrection. We have an advantage inasmuch as they've been thoroughly commented on for two millenia, the "obscurities" they may have struggled over are not something we need to today.

:thumbs:
 
I love it when I show that the doctrinal types have made things up that don't exist in the gospel or epistles, and their only response is that I need to read more. Oh the irony.

You referred to me in post #598 as a "doctrinal type," so this is apparently only one of your "memes." And you missed my point about the clanging cymbals. Reread your first six words: "I love it when I show..."
 
No, the Scriptures aren't literal about the messiah rising on the third day, but Jesus Himself explained it using Jonah...

“An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; 40 for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth..." (Mt 12:39ff)

Additionally, every other major aspect of the Messiah is well-documented in Scripture - His birth, His death, His suffering, His resurrection... which I don't think we need to address here either - or do we?

But you put forth 1 Cor 15 - and that for the specific purpose of asserting that Paul "had no use for Scripture," and I've demonstrated how just 3 verses into the chapter that it is your passage that proves just the opposite of what you'd asserted.

...unless of course it is also your assertion that Scripture is irrelevant, or worse, wrong?

For what it's worth, Jesus' disciples, who were undoubtedly well versed in Scripture themselves, needed Him to explain many of them - something He spent a fair amount of time doing after His resurrection. We have an advantage inasmuch as they've been thoroughly commented on for two millenia, the "obscurities" they may have struggled over are not something we need to today.

:thumbs:

Very good! You got it. Paul is referring to Jesus's sayings. He isn't referring to the Hebrew Scriptures at all.

That was sort of my point.

It appears Paul had a copy of Q, the sayings of Jesus, which he took as scripture. This is further confirmed by the fact that Paul quotes Jesus on various occasions (like Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25, 1 Corinthians 9:14, 1 Corinthians 7:10 ), and he couldn't be referring to the extant gospels, since they hadn't been written yet. These saying would have been in Q.

Now that's interesting. But it doesn't help the doctrinals' case.
 
Last edited:
I love it when I show that the doctrinal types have made things up that don't exist in the gospel or epistles, and their only response is that I need to read more. Oh the irony.
See. If you had read Isaiah and understood it, you wouldn't say such things.
 
Very good! You got it. Paul is referring to Jesus's sayings. He isn't referring to the Hebrew Scriptures at all.

That was sort of my point.

It appears Paul had a copy of Q, the sayings of Jesus, which he took as scripture. This is further confirmed by the fact that Paul quotes Jesus on various occasions (like Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 11:23-25, 1 Corinthians 9:14, 1 Corinthians 7:10 ), and he couldn't be referring to the extant gospels, since they hadn't been written yet. These saying would have been in Q.

Now that's interesting. But it doesn't help the doctrinals' case.
Well, the Q hypothesis is an interesting one I'll admit, but I haven't bought into it yet. While it seems to "make sense" on several levels, the premise that there have to be writings from which Paul and others referred in some of their quotes is a difficult one to prove, particularly given no such writings have ever been found. But that's another topic...

Several things though in that regard:
1) while in I Cor 15 Paul asserts that Jesus was raised after 3 days, "according to Scriptures," and while no such direct reference occurs in the OT to that, Jesus offered the interpretation Himself, referring to Jonah's 3 days in the whale (cited above). So at least as far as Jesus was concerned, His 3 days' burial prior to being resurrected WAS explained by Scripture.

2) In I Cor 15 Paul also asserts Christ's death, burial, and resurrection as being "according to Scriptures," and there's a wealth of references in the OT to that so it's not really possible to maintain the assertion that Paul had no use for the OT, particularly on the basis of the 3-day reference. And lastly,

3) to quote the scripture you cited earlier in 2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God..." - I lean on that for answers to the apparent inconsistencies on which the Q hypothesis depends. That Scripture is inspired by God means God gave those who wrote Scripture the requisite information He wanted them to have to write. It doesn't mean He gave them necessarily an understanding of what it was they were writing, but it was by His guidance nevertheless that they wrote what they did. We know the Jews of the day, whether the religious leaders, or the masses, or even the disciples, despite having an intimate knowledge of Scripture, did not fully understand in Jesus' appearance on the scene how He was a fulfillment of Scripture. Even Paul - himself being a "Pharisee of Pharisees" misunderstood the Scriptures as they related to Jesus; and it took that amazing meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus to knock some sense into him. My point being that we need His help, the Spirit's help ourselves to understand and grasp Scripture, something the Q hypothesis seems to forget in its attempt to reconcile the gospels and other NT writer's accounts.

Either way, Paul was indisputably beholden to Scripture, especially where the gospel was concerned.
 
Ok, let's review this yet one more time:

Capitalism is is a system whereby the means of production, of transport, and exchange are privately owned rather than State owned.
In Capitalism those means are characterized by the fundamental concept of freedom (laissez-faire - "let us be"), the right to be left alone, unhindered, unimpeded by any outside force, most notably the force of the State.
That's capitalism.

If that we're the case then feudalism would have been capitalism .... no it isn't, it's also based on the capitalist mode of production, labor markets, owner's exclusive rights to capital and a FOR PROFIT system.

Btw, it isn't laissez faire ... property laws are very complex ... and property (expecially beyond personal possession) is all state created and enforced ... pre-state there was no "private property" in the form of land ownership and capital ownership.

On to corporations:
In 2009, there were roughly 5,800,000 corporations in the United States. Today that number is about 5,400,000.
89.7% of those corporations have fewer than 20 employees.
99.7% have fewer than 500 employees.

If we add in the number of unincorporated businesses in the United States, the number of businesses with fewer than 500 employees rises to 99.9% (~22m)

In other words, the VAST MAJORITY (99.9%) of businesses in this nation are small businesses and roughly 26% of those are corporations - and the majority of THOSE are PRIVATE entities (i.e. "publicly" owned). Source.

Yes but how much economic power do those small buisinesses have ... not much, the ones with the real power are teh goldman sachs and the walmarts .... the market power of those top corporations are HUGE.

The POINT of incorporating is NOT to "maximize profit" let alone to "maximize profit at ALL COSTS." That's just absurd and belies a complete lack of understanding of what a corporation is.
To define a corporation, it is best to ask the question "why incorporate?" You'll get a variety of answers, but all will have in common the following:
1) To protect yourself, your family, your assets from personal liability from company debts and obligations. That's the #1 reason for incorporation (becoming a corporation).
2) Name recognition and brand identity.
3) Easier to generate capital to expand and grow their business
4) Longevity - a corporation can exist indefinitely and beyond their original owner
etc. etc.

Incorporating is a method of ORGANIZING YOUR BUSINESS, structuring your business, in part to enable it to become more successful.

1. More successful means higher profit.
2. Generating capital is generating investors who demand maximum return on investment i.e. MAXIMIZING PROFITS.

Now, to your assertion, that the fundamental purpose of corporations is to "maximize profit at ALL COSTS." I've dispelled that myth already, nevertheless I suspect that in your mind you're talking about a very small and somewhat unique type of "corporation" - namely, Public corporations - moreover public corporations with > 500 employees (i.e. large corporations) as those seem to be the demon gorillas targeted by leftist ideologues with the most fervor these days.

When a corporation "goes public," it is soliciting capital from others who would invest in that corporation. In the process of "going public," a corporation loses its "private" standing (the original owner "sells" his company) and becomes an entity now owned by investors with a personal stake in the corporation. Investors invest largely in anticipation of seeing their investment grow - else why invest? So in a sense, you're correct when talking about such entities, that they are now beholden to investor's expectations that the business constantly grow. But at "ALL COSTS?" That's just hyperbole. It is the rare entity that will abandon reason, even the law to maximize its profits. So even if those are the culprits you're using to broadbrush all corporations, know that you're broadbrushing with a very, very small number of examples.

Finallly, what does it mean anyway to "maximize profits?" All that means is to get as much as the market, your customers will permit you to have. If you sell your product at say $100 but customers are willing to pay $300, you're not "maximizing" your profit; you're leaving $200 on the table that your customer would have been willing to pay you.

And that's a critical point that needs to be stated - the business transaction, ALL business transactions are fundamentally an exchange of value - and when done in freedom, laissez-faire (neither side coerced in any way into making the transaction when they otherwise wouldn't), the business transaction is something to which BOTH PARTIES FREELY AGREE. One of the purposes of marketing, e.g. is to figure out what your customers are willing to pay; it makes no sense to price your products or services at LESS than your customers would be willing to pay - any more than it makes to price your products ABOVE what they're willing to pay. "Maximizing profits" then is finding that price. Of course, competition can - and SHOULD lower that amount by offering to customers the CHOICE - a choice that will often (assuming equal quality products/services) be based on price.

Does that make a little more sense now?

This is all nice theory .... I've heard it all before. But we KNOW how it works in real life ....

1. When a worker in china has an option fo working for almost nothing or being homeless, the deal he makes with foxcon to work as almost a slave isn't really "free" in a meaningful sense of the word, it isn't an exchange that's really on equal terms it's EXPLOITATION ... exploitation that's built in teh system.

2. The whole "willing to pay" thing isn't how the market works, I'm willing to pay the least amount possible for something I need .... but the market wants to sell it to me for the most,. maximizing profit means if I can charge customers higher ... I must, if I can pay my employees less, I will, if I can dump my waste in the river instead of getting it disposed at a cost I will ... EVEN IF, those actions are detrimental to society ..... that's what it means.

3. It isn't a hypoerboly at all cost, it's system, look at the 2008 crisis, look at the enviromental climate, look at the destruction of rainforests, look at the empoverishing of whole nations, look at outsourcing ... these are all things that are detrimental to soceity, that corporations do to maximize profit. It isn't the "rare entity" it's the whole private health insurance company .... denying children or anyone healthcare in order to maximize profits its morally insane, yet they do it every day ... it's the whole banking sector ... putting the whole financial system at risk to make potentially profitable bets, putting peoples morgages and homes at risk, making people homeless so as to maximize profits is moral lunacy .... yet they do it every day.

The prophets in their day condemned nations that did what these corpoations do everyday, we have examples of economic systems God approves of, principles that God gives us .... yet you throw that aside to worship at the idol of capitalism ...

My arguments have been from scripture the WHOLE time, people that oppose inequalities in wealth, profit over people, property over people, people that fight for justice are in line with the biblical message. People that defend systems of profit and property, who ignore inequalities, who ignore injustice, who side with teh wealthy and powerful, are not.
 
Last edited:
If that we're the case then feudalism would have been capitalism .... no it isn't, it's also based on the capitalist mode of production, labor markets, owner's exclusive rights to capital and a FOR PROFIT system.

Btw, it isn't laissez faire ... property laws are very complex ... and property (expecially beyond personal possession) is all state created and enforced ... pre-state there was no "private property" in the form of land ownership and capital ownership.

Yes but how much economic power do those small buisinesses have ... not much, the ones with the real power are teh goldman sachs and the walmarts .... the market power of those top corporations are HUGE.

1. More successful means higher profit.
2. Generating capital is generating investors who demand maximum return on investment i.e. MAXIMIZING PROFITS.

This is all nice theory .... I've heard it all before. But we KNOW how it works in real life ....

1. When a worker in china has an option fo working for almost nothing or being homeless, the deal he makes with foxcon to work as almost a slave isn't really "free" in a meaningful sense of the word, it isn't an exchange that's really on equal terms it's EXPLOITATION ... exploitation that's built in teh system.

2. The whole "willing to pay" thing isn't how the market works, I'm willing to pay the least amount possible for something I need .... but the market wants to sell it to me for the most,. maximizing profit means if I can charge customers higher ... I must, if I can pay my employees less, I will, if I can dump my waste in the river instead of getting it disposed at a cost I will ... EVEN IF, those actions are detrimental to society ..... that's what it means.

3. It isn't a hypoerboly at all cost, it's system, look at the 2008 crisis, look at the enviromental climate, look at the destruction of rainforests, look at the empoverishing of whole nations, look at outsourcing ... these are all things that are detrimental to soceity, that corporations do to maximize profit. It isn't the "rare entity" it's the whole private health insurance company .... denying children or anyone healthcare in order to maximize profits its morally insane, yet they do it every day ... it's the whole banking sector ... putting the whole financial system at risk to make potentially profitable bets, putting peoples morgages and homes at risk, making people homeless so as to maximize profits is moral lunacy .... yet they do it every day.

The prophets in their day condemned nations that did what these corpoations do everyday, we have examples of economic systems God approves of, principles that God gives us .... yet you throw that aside to worship at the idol of capitalism ...

My arguments have been from scripture the WHOLE time, people that oppose inequalities in wealth, profit over people, property over people, people that fight for justice are in line with the biblical message. People that defend systems of profit and property, who ignore inequalities, who ignore injustice, who side with teh wealthy and powerful, are not.
The problem with extreme partisan hackery such as this is that it's fundamentally contrarian in its puerility; it won't even acknowledge commonly accepted - even textbook definitions and explanations that have stood the test of time repeatedly. Such hackery is so steeped in hatred and intolerance for anything that doesn't fit it's absurdly over-the-top, radical agenda, its fundamentally communist propaganda that it will brazenly deny even the most basic, commonly held definitions and truths. And to make matters worse, it twists and warps Scripture to make it say something it demonstrably doesn't, to illicitly "prove" the historic, gargantuan failures that are its theories whenever put into practice, that they are somehow sanctioned by God - albeit a god whom you've explicitly denied elsewhere in another thread isn't even divine.

So I'm sorry, YOUR god may sanction the destructive nonsense you spew; but usurping the real God's Scriptures to sanction a godless ideology that has failed every time it's been forcibly wielded against humanity is about as reprehensible and craven as extremely radical partisan hackery can get. Claiming "justice," this version of communism screams injustice; asserting idolatry, this version of communism reveres it; feigning concern for the poor, this ghost of pretend human compassion could care less about what really happens to the poor when it gets its way, inasmuch as not only does it not elevate the poor, it multiplies them and exacerbates their poverty to the point of utter futility.

In short, and this irrespective of any economic system, capitalist or communist, yours is no "gospel" at all. In fact, it's just the opposite; it's about as bad as bad news can get.
 
The problem with extreme partisan hackery such as this is that it's fundamentally contrarian in its puerility; it won't even acknowledge commonly accepted - even textbook definitions and explanations that have stood the test of time repeatedly. Such hackery is so steeped in hatred and intolerance for anything that doesn't fit it's absurdly over-the-top, radical agenda, its fundamentally communist propaganda that it will brazenly deny even the most basic, commonly held definitions and truths. And to make matters worse, it twists and warps Scripture to make it say something it demonstrably doesn't, to illicitly "prove" the historic, gargantuan failures that are its theories whenever put into practice, that they are somehow sanctioned by God - albeit a god whom you've explicitly denied elsewhere in another thread isn't even divine.

So I'm sorry, YOUR god may sanction the destructive nonsense you spew; but usurping the real God's Scriptures to sanction a godless ideology that has failed every time it's been forcibly wielded against humanity is about as reprehensible and craven as extremely radical partisan hackery can get. Claiming "justice," this version of communism screams injustice; asserting idolatry, this version of communism reveres it; feigning concern for the poor, this ghost of pretend human compassion could care less about what really happens to the poor when it gets its way, inasmuch as not only does it not elevate the poor, it multiplies them and exacerbates their poverty to the point of utter futility.

In short, and this irrespective of any economic system, capitalist or communist, yours is no "gospel" at all. In fact, it's just the opposite; it's about as bad as bad news can get.

How does it TWIST and warp scripture??? SHOW ME where I have missinterpreted scripture, where I have said scripture says something that it doesn't.

Its YOU that's misusing Jesus' parables, pretending that it's applicable to economics when jesus himself says what it's applicable to, using Pauls personal admonition out of context to defent economic systems.

I discuss capitalism how it is, what it does, not some utopian definition, but what capitalism ACTUALLY is, capitalism IS a system based first and formost on profit maximization .... denying that is only to deny plain reality, if you don't believe that go tell it to people on wallstreet.

If you have a problem with scriptuiral justice, which WAS redistributive (in the mosaic law), communitarian and egalitarian (in the mosaic law and in the first century church), contemning of the rich, exploitation, rent taking, economic inequality (the prophets), then your problem is with the bible, I showed that.

BTW what version fo "communism" are you talking about, you're the one constantly bringing up the boogie man .... I haven't.

Was God wrong in instituting the most redistributive, egalitarian and communal system around in the nation of Israel??? Did the first century Church organize things wrong?

We're the prophets wrong in condemning the rich, inequality, and exploitation? ....
 
Back
Top Bottom