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American's right when it comes to Christianity and Capitalism.

RGacky3

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Capitalism_ChristianValues.jpg

Survey | Plurality of Americans believe capitalism at odds with Christian values

This is from 2 years back, but still.

You put decades and decades of propaganda starting in the 1920s, trying to priase Capitalism, and make Capitalism the "godly" religion, yet thankfully most Americans are more bible literate than the ruling class would like.

Capitalism is at Odds with Christian values, and even those in a US, a country that has made Capitalism the top Idol and pofit the top God, and have pounded that through decades of propaganda, most people still understand christian values.
 

mak2

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Very interesting article.

Support for Government Intervention

Overall most (61%) Americans disagree that most businesses would act ethically on their own without regulation from the government. Less than 4-in-10 (37%) believe that they would. This holds true across political and religious lines, with the lone exception of those who identify with the Tea Party movement (53% agree).
 

ChuckBerry

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Skim this.

Then read this.

Bottom line is that gratitude is the foundation we need for all Christian living. Whatever we do without it for the sake of asserting the delusion of our self-reliance, we do to our damnation.
 

soot

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Capitalism is at Odds with Christian values...

I fail to see how that would be the case.

Capitalism is just a set of economic rules.

There's nothing inherently "unChristian" about those rules.

There's nothing in Capitalism that says you have to lie, cheat, or steal to get ahead.

There's nothing about Capitalism that says you have to step on the little guy to get ahead.

There's nothing to Capitalism that says you have to hoard profits or turn those profits towards selfish personal ends.

One can adhere to the principals of Capitalism unfailingly and still remain a "textbook" Christian.

What might be at odds with Christianity are people.

People, even many Christians, even many very vocal Christians, are at odds with Christianity.

They aren't at odds with Christianity because of Capitalism but rather despite it.
 

ChuckBerry

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Just so. Capitalism does not demand that you exploit others for personal gain. It is amoral; it is merely unconcerned whether you exploit others for personal gain or not.
 

head of joaquin

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Just so. Capitalism does not demand that you exploit others for personal gain. It is amoral; it is merely unconcerned whether you exploit others for personal gain or not.

That's the problem. It rewards those who do exploit others for personal gain. Such a system is contrary to the gospel message on its face.
 

LowDown

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I fail to see how that would be the case.

Capitalism is just a set of economic rules.

There's nothing inherently "unChristian" about those rules.

There's nothing in Capitalism that says you have to lie, cheat, or steal to get ahead.

There's nothing about Capitalism that says you have to step on the little guy to get ahead.

There's nothing to Capitalism that says you have to hoard profits or turn those profits towards selfish personal ends.

One can adhere to the principals of Capitalism unfailingly and still remain a "textbook" Christian.

What might be at odds with Christianity are people.

People, even many Christians, even many very vocal Christians, are at odds with Christianity.

They aren't at odds with Christianity because of Capitalism but rather despite it.

People who make the claim that Christian values are at odds with capitalism are invariably those people who want to take our money and spend it on themselves and theirs and call that "social justice." What it is is theft born of envy.

capitalism = individual rights plus access to a free market. That's really all there is to it. It's what happens spontaneously when a free people living under the rule of law associate. How does that become incompatible with Christianity unless Christianity is distorted by concepts of "social justice" and confiscation of property by threat of force? Christianity is not the morality of theives. Compassion and charity are the fruits of the Spirit freely and spontaneously given according to the conscience of the believer. By law, the government collecting taxes has nothing whatsoever to do with Christian charity.
 

head of joaquin

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People who make the claim that Christian values are at odds with capitalism are invariably those people who want to take our money and spend it on themselves and theirs and call that "social justice." What it is is theft born of envy. .

Please provide your evidence for this ridiculous claim.

That'll be the day.
 

Goshin

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Capitalism is not without its faults, and yes there is a need for regulation of it to prevent a variety of social ills.


However, it creates more prosperity, not just for the uber-rich, but also for the ordinary working person, than any other system in history.


The Pilgrims at Jamestown originally attempted to "hold all things in common"... and nearly starved. Then they divided up the cleared land into plots, assigned a plot to each household, and told them what they produced was theirs to do with as they will... and they prospered so well they held a feast and invited the natives, and that was the origin of Thanksgiving.

No nation that has embraced communal ownership of all production, and "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" has prospered. The USSR was a mess that collapsed financially; China would have gone down the same road if they had not started mixing some capitalism in with their communism.


In the 1st Century, communitarianism was a more just and productive choice than the existing master-slave economy no doubt... but today things are very different.
 

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Is freedom of choice "a Christian value"? We can give a bunch of different definitions to "capitalism" and "Christian values", but this is the first question to answer.
 

Hard Truth

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I'm not a huge fan of Christianity, but it set some standards that kept many people from indulging in their worst tendencies, which helped to balance out the greedy tendencies that capitalism allows (and arguably encourages). The other factor tempering the behavior of capitalists in the past was that most people lived in smaller communities, which means that there was more chance of someone being embarrassed or shamed due to selfish behavior. Now that people can live anonymously and they aren't afraid of hell, only their personal ethics keep them from abusing the opportunities and privileges that money brings.
 

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Please provide your evidence for this ridiculous claim.

That'll be the day.

Which claim are you referring to? That "Christians" who support the transfer economy are takers/looters or that demands for "social justice" arise from envy? Either one ought to be self evident.
 

head of joaquin

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Which claim are you referring to? That "Christians" who support the transfer economy are takers/looters or that demands for "social justice" arise from envy? Either one ought to be self evident.

What's evident is that you're just making stuff up as usual to fit your ugly ideology, which regrettably you claim is associated with the gospel.

Nothing happening here folks.
 

head of joaquin

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Is freedom of choice "a Christian value"? We can give a bunch of different definitions to "capitalism" and "Christian values", but this is the first question to answer.

Well, we might want to first define what freedom of choice is. The "freedom" of people without capital to be exploited by those with capital or to starve is the kind of definition that libertarians usually start with. They just don't want to admit it.
 

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Capitalism neither inherently supports nor inherently opposes christian values....

don't be fooled by idiot narratives in poll form, people.
 

Cyrylek

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Well, we might want to first define what freedom of choice is. The "freedom" of people without capital to be exploited by those with capital or to starve is the kind of definition that libertarians usually start with. They just don't want to admit it.

Translation from Progressive: The freedom to have a job if someone out there can offer it.

Apart from any meta-Marxist idiocies, once again: Is freedom of choice "a Christian value"?
 

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That's the problem. It rewards those who do exploit others for personal gain. Such a system is contrary to the gospel message on its face.

silly socialist, they never have been able to figure out that everybody exploits others for their own personal gain...regardless of what economic rules are at work.
 

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What's evident is that you're just making stuff up as usual to fit your ugly ideology, which regrettably you claim is associated with the gospel.

Nothing happening here folks.

A looter who covers himself with a patina of Christianity. Now that's what's ugly.

Any number of surveys show that liberals give very little to charity personally. They think that calling for others to be taxed and for the proceeds to be given to people who will vote for their party absolves them of any personal responsibility in that regard. That's ugly and certainly not Christian.
 

Cyrylek

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silly socialist, they never have been able to figure out that everybody exploits others for their own personal gain...regardless of what economic rules are at work.

No, no! As they say, it is only under capitalism that Man exploits Man. Under socialism, it's the other way around.

I guess the most embarrassing question they refuse to ask themselves is: "Capitalism" - as opposed to what, exactly?
 

head of joaquin

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A looter who covers himself with a patina of Christianity. Now that's what's ugly.

Any number of surveys show that liberals give very little to charity personally. They think that calling for others to be taxed and for the proceeds to be given to people who will vote for their party absolves them of any personal responsibility in that regard. That's ugly and certainly not Christian.

Looter?

God I love the silliness of rightwing rhetoric. Unfortunately for some, Jesus doesn't, according to Matthew 25.
 

head of joaquin

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No, no! As they say, it is only under capitalism that Man exploits Man. Under socialism, it's the other way around.

I guess the most embarrassing question they refuse to ask themselves is: "Capitalism" - as opposed to what, exactly?

A totally legitimate question and the answer is regulated capitalism, in the form of social democracy, with a decent social safety net to protect those who for whatever reason find themselves without capital or the means to obtain it, and various programs to insure that resources and opportunity are available to everyone, not just the rich, including public education, a progressive income tax, an estate tax, and affordable health care.

Because of the extremism of certain elements in the US conservative movement, "capitalism" has come to mean corporate capitalism without any regulated to benefit anybody but the rich. I suspect that the participants in the poll had that definition in mind when the responded.
 

Cyrylek

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A totally legitimate question and the answer is regulated capitalism, in the form of social democracy, with a decent social safety net to protect those who for whatever reason find themselves without capital or the means to obtain it, and various programs to insure that resources and opportunity are available to everyone, not just the rich, including public education, a progressive income tax, an estate tax, and affordable health care.

Because of the extremism of certain elements in the US conservative movement, "capitalism" has come to mean corporate capitalism without any regulated to benefit anybody but the rich. I suspect that the participants in the poll had that definition in mind when the responded.

Now, we can argue about the merits of particular ideas - like the progressive income tax - but I have no problem with the very notion of striking some balance between the free market ideal and the wisely designed social safety nets - at least until the markets are allowed to make those nets redundant and obsolete. The safety nets do cost us some freedom, but so does any government activity, starting with defense and policing: it is a matter of priorities, and well-meaning, intelligent people are allowed to disagree there.

The question posed in the OP suggests a different angle, however. Is there something immoral (at least from the POV of Christianity) in capitalism as such - as opposed to alternative socio-economic systems? As an atheist, I should not speak for Christians, but from the POV of the general, more basic, Golden Rule-based morality - no. Both pre-capitalist and anti-capitalist systems are dramatically more immoral, denying freedom of choice to a lot of people, even when physical "opportunities" are present.
 

RGacky3

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I fail to see how that would be the case.

Capitalism is just a set of economic rules.

There's nothing inherently "unChristian" about those rules.

There's nothing in Capitalism that says you have to lie, cheat, or steal to get ahead.

There's nothing about Capitalism that says you have to step on the little guy to get ahead.

There's nothing to Capitalism that says you have to hoard profits or turn those profits towards selfish personal ends.

One can adhere to the principals of Capitalism unfailingly and still remain a "textbook" Christian.

What might be at odds with Christianity are people.

People, even many Christians, even many very vocal Christians, are at odds with Christianity.

They aren't at odds with Christianity because of Capitalism but rather despite it.

It actually does, Capitalism demands that you maximize profits, it's a system where the vast majority of the economy is run not for the common good, or social need, but for profit, in competition and for private gain, things that if left in the commons could be used for the common good are privitized and instead used for profit.
 

RGacky3

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Just so. Capitalism does not demand that you exploit others for personal gain. It is amoral; it is merely unconcerned whether you exploit others for personal gain or not.

It does .... you work in one of the large investment banks or financial institutions and try to act morally ... Capitalisms maxim is "maximize profits at all costs," it's a system that rewards ruthless greed.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/religious-discussions/156925-social-justice.html

There is what the bible says about social justice.
 
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RGacky3

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People who make the claim that Christian values are at odds with capitalism are invariably those people who want to take our money and spend it on themselves and theirs and call that "social justice." What it is is theft born of envy.

capitalism = individual rights plus access to a free market. That's really all there is to it. It's what happens spontaneously when a free people living under the rule of law associate. How does that become incompatible with Christianity unless Christianity is distorted by concepts of "social justice" and confiscation of property by threat of force? Christianity is not the morality of theives. Compassion and charity are the fruits of the Spirit freely and spontaneously given according to the conscience of the believer. By law, the government collecting taxes has nothing whatsoever to do with Christian charity.

That definition of Capitalism can mean anything.

Capitalism is really an economy that is privitized and for profit. Capitalism ISN'T spontaneous, look at it's history, it took decades of bloodshed to make the commons privitized and ready for profit making.

Plus I love your definition of social justice, it isn't taking "YOUR money" and giving it to us ... (thats what the financial industry does), it's making a system, a set of rules for hte economy, that benefit everyone, especially the poor.

Christianity isn't distorted by "social justice" it IS social justice. It's in it throughout the scriptures.

BTW I love how you say it's "Envy" when the apostles commanded the people to sell their possessions and hold everything in common was it "envy" When GOd commanded the Israalites to make sure the poor had access to what they needed all the time was it envy`?

WHen a rich person wants to maximize profits by laying off people and making the rest work harder, or basically loansharking, it's just them bieng good buisinessmen ... when they want to privitize energy so they can profit off poor people trying to stay warm in the winter it's just buisiness.

If I or other people of conscience want to make sure that the poor are taken care of, and that certain things stay in the commons so that we all have access to it it's somehow envy!!!!

Read the bible buddy.
 
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