Americans Are Dying In The Pandemic At Rates Far Higher Than In Other Countries

[Vern]

During this pandemic, people in the United States are currently dying at rates unparalleled elsewhere in the world.

A new report in the Journal of the American Medical Association finds that over the last 5 months per capita deaths in the U.S., both from COVID-19 and other causes have been far greater than in 18 other high-income countries.

Americans Are Dying In The Pandemic At Rates Far Higher Than In Other Countries

Per capita deaths in the U.S. from COVID-19 and other causes are 85% higher than in countries like Germany and Israel. "The United States really has done remarkably badly," a study author says.

www.npr.org

Seriously what do you expect when Trump and republicans downplay and lie about the severity of Covid19, discourage mask use, shutdown and social distancing. Trump and the republican's actions have killed Americans and hurt the economy. Its not even debatable. Why is this acceptable to conservatives?

 

[Overitall]

When you have experts like the one below advising us what we should or should not be doing where do you get your direction from? Who should advise the President?


The latest direction coming from WHO is that lockdowns cause more harm than good.

WHO warns against COVID-19 lockdowns due to economic damage

The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks — after previously saying countries should be careful how quickly they reopen. WHO e…

nypost.com

 

[Slavister]

When you have experts like the one below advising us what we should or should not be doing where do you get your direction from? Who should advise the President?

Poor President Trump did not have the right advisors?

President is free to bring on any advisors he likes and he likes to say he always brings in the BEST PEOPLE.

So it's on Trump - however he chooses his advisors.

Of course he also says he knows more than the experts. So maybe he should be advising himself then. Oh nevermind, he already does.

 

[Overitall]

Poor President Trump did not have the right advisors?

President is free to bring on any advisors he likes and he likes to say he always brings in the BEST PEOPLE.

So it's on Trump - however he chooses his advisors.

Of course he also says he knows more than the experts. So maybe he should be advising himself then. Oh nevermind, he already does.

Who do you choose to listen to?

 

[Slavister]

Who do you choose to listen to?

I'll let you know when I am in the White House. And believe it or not, the results won't be the WORST out of EVERY OTHER major industrialized country in the world.

 

[Vern]

Who do you choose to listen to?

I think one of the problems you're having is you're still listening to something from 7-8 months ago that Fauci admitted was wrong and oddly comparing it to the consistent agenda from Trump and Republicans that have led to more deaths and hurt the economy. Trump and republicans politicized mask wearing, social distancing, partial shutdowns and science. Thats why we have a death rate a third world country would be embarrassed by. And conservatives are still obediently attacking wearing a mask. Here's a thread literally from 2 days ago still lying about wearing masks

Centers for Disease Control report released in September shows that masks and face coverings are not effective in preventing the spread of COVID-19,

https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/12/cdc-study-finds-overwhelming-majority-of-people-getting-coronavirus-wore-masks/ “Centers for Disease Control report released in September shows that masks and face coverings are not effective in preventing the spread of COVID-19, even for those people who...

debatepolitics.com

 

[OlNate]

Who do you choose to listen to?

 

[snakestretcher]

Who do you choose to listen to?

People who know what they're talking about, maybe? I don't include Trump among them.

 

[Overitall]

I think one of the problems you're having is you're still listening to something from 7-8 months ago that Fauci admitted was wrong and oddly comparing it to the consistent agenda from Trump and Republicans that have led to more deaths and hurt the economy. Trump and republicans politicized mask wearing, social distancing, partial shutdowns and science. Thats why we have a death rate a third world country would be embarrassed by. And conservatives are still obediently attacking wearing a mask. Here's a thread literally from 2 days ago still lying about wearing masks

Centers for Disease Control report released in September shows that masks and face coverings are not effective in preventing the spread of COVID-19,

https://thefederalist.com/2020/10/12/cdc-study-finds-overwhelming-majority-of-people-getting-coronavirus-wore-masks/ “Centers for Disease Control report released in September shows that masks and face coverings are not effective in preventing the spread of COVID-19, even for those people who...

debatepolitics.com

Not my problem at all. I used that particular clip to highlight the fact that experts are not always honest with us. Fauci explains his lack of candor (dishonesty) here.
https://thehill.com/changing-americ...fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

He also acknowledged that masks were initially not recommended to the general public so that first responders wouldn’t feel the strain of a shortage of PPE.

He explained that public health experts "were concerned the public health community, and many people were saying this, were concerned that it was at a time when personal protective equipment, including the N95 masks and the surgical masks, were in very short supply.”

He, like Trump, didn’t want to panic the general public. As it was the public did panic when it came to every day staples like toilet paper.

In addition to Fauci I also cited WHO’s recent turnabout concerning lockdowns. I didn’t see you address that. As a matter of fact I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say what experts they trust to guide them. That’s interesting. To tell me you don’t trust Trump is a given and a dodge.

 

[AJG]

When you have experts like the one below advising us what we should or should not be doing where do you get your direction from? Who should advise the President?


The latest direction coming from WHO is that lockdowns cause more harm than good.

WHO warns against COVID-19 lockdowns due to economic damage

The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks — after previously saying countries should be careful how quickly they reopen. WHO e…

nypost.com

I think he should get direction from health experts who advise based on what scientists currently understand about the virus. No one should be making decisions based on what experts were saying in March when little was known about the virus.

In addition to Fauci I also cited WHO’s recent turnabout concerning lockdowns. I didn’t see you address that. As a matter of fact I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say what experts they trust to guide them. That’s interesting. To tell me you don’t trust Trump is a given and a dodge.

I don't think you should base anything off of one article, study, or expert's opinion. Look for the current consensus in the scientific community. Right now the consensus is that masks are good at preventing the spread of covid, and lockdowns are necessary when things get bad enough.

 

[Overitall]

I think he should get direction from health experts who advise based on what scientists currently understand about the virus. No one should be making decisions based on what experts were saying in March when little was known about the virus.

The effectiveness of masks is not a revolving science. Their use against viruses has been around since the Spanish flu of 1918. I’m sure Fauci is aware of this. Was aware of it when he downplayed the use of masks early on. As you note Covid is a virus. It may be new but the science dealing with viruses isn’t new.

 

[AJG]

The effectiveness of masks is not a revolving science. Their use against viruses has been around since the Spanish flu of 1918. I’m sure Fauci is aware of this. Was aware of it when he downplayed the use of masks early on. As you note Covid is a virus. It may be new but the science dealing with viruses isn’t new.

Each virus is different, and a mask's effectiveness for each virus is different. If they were all the same we would know everything there is to know about covid and countries/scientists around the world wouldn't need to spend so much time and money on researching how to prevent its spread and how to cure people who have it.

 

[Overitall]

Each virus is different, and a mask's effectiveness for each virus is different. If they were all the same we would know everything there is to know about covid and countries/scientists around the world wouldn't need to spend so much time and money on researching how to prevent its spread and how to cure people who have it.

When it comes to PPE nothing much has changed since 1918. The designs have changed but the reasonings behind masks has not. Fauci knew this and still downplayed them for a reason which I cited. He didn’t want a panic and have a run on masks in order to ensure healthcare workers had them readily available to them.

 

[AJG]

When it comes to PPE nothing much has changed since 1918. The designs have changed but the reasonings behind masks has not. Fauci knew this and still downplayed them for a reason which I cited. He didn’t want a panic and have a run on masks in order to ensure healthcare workers had them readily available to them.

If you're saying that Fauci wasn't being honest about his stance on wearing masks in March, then I agree. But he and the scientific community have changed their tune since then and the consensus now is that masks prevent the spread of covid and should be worn. We should be making decisions based on what's known now, not something people thought was true in March.

 

[CaughtInThe]

What pandemic?

 

[Vern]

Not my problem at all. I used that particular clip to highlight the fact that experts are not always honest with us. Fauci explains his lack of candor (dishonesty) here.
https://thehill.com/changing-americ...fauci-why-the-public-wasnt-told-to-wear-masks

He, like Trump, didn’t want to panic the general public. As it was the public did panic when it came to every day staples like toilet paper.

In addition to Fauci I also cited WHO’s recent turnabout concerning lockdowns. I didn’t see you address that. As a matter of fact I haven’t seen anyone in this thread say what experts they trust to guide them. That’s interesting. To tell me you don’t trust Trump is a given and a dodge.

I'm sorry I dont put Fauci's statement from 8 months ago in the same category as trump's 8 months of incompetence and dishonesty. And fauci didnt say it to "not panic people". He said it because he was concerned about PPE for frontline workers. And lets face it, Fauci had to be concerned about PPE for healthcare workers 8 months ago precisely because of trump's incompetence and dishonesty. And trump's dishonesty and incompetence hasn't stopped.

And thanks for the chuckle that you think I have to address WHO's latest guidance (did you see the word latest?) because you haven't addressed my question that was the basis of this thread: why is trump's incompetence and dishonesty is acceptable to you when it has killed people and hurt the economy. "wah wah Fauci said something wrong 8 months ago" doesn't answer my question yet you think you're owed a response to something that has nothing to do with my posts. To prove my point, you havent addressed the fact that conservatives are still being lied to about masks from their conservative masters. I posted that to show you the continued dishonesty from the right. It didnt require you to respond to it but by your standards, you now have to address it. See my point now?

And I wish you could understand the hypocrisy of a conservative (or conservative like poster) now quoting WHO policy. But I dont think you quite processed exactly what the WHO said.

But Tedros had urged countries to bolster other measures, including widespread testing and contact tracing, so they could safely reopen and avoid future lockdowns.

Yea, countries without dishonest and incompetent leaders can and should avoid future lockdowns.

 

[Overitall]

If you're saying that Fauci wasn't being honest about his stance on wearing masks in March, then I agree. But he and the scientific community have changed their tune since then and the consensus now is that masks prevent the spread of covid and should be worn. We should be making decisions based on what's known now, not something people thought was true in March.

Yes, I’m saying Fauci was lying. In a court of law he would make a poor witness to a case. How could you trust anything he’s saying if he was willfully lying to us in the past? And remember this is the same man that was advising Trump.

On your point of following the advice of experts now. Do you then agree with the assessment of WHO that lockdowns cause more harm than the virus?

 

[Alfons]

Do you know exactly what going on and who's dying in reality?

 

[TomFitz]

When it comes to PPE nothing much has changed since 1918. The designs have changed but the reasonings behind masks has not. Fauci knew this and still downplayed them for a reason which I cited. He didn’t want a panic and have a run on masks in order to ensure healthcare workers had them readily available to them.

Actually, it has.

Modern artificial fabrics make it possible to weave a breathable fabric that will trap particles down to a design standard.

That was not possible in 1918.

 

[TomFitz]

I'll let you know when I am in the White House. And believe it or not, the results won't be the WORST out of EVERY OTHER major industrialized country in the world.

OK. So, a Trumpster who cannot refute the fact that the US has the worst record in the industrialized world sets an artificial deadline far into the imaginary future so he can say that it didn’t actually turn out that way.

That’s Trumpster thinking. And it’s the kind of rationalization one sees when one does not have a leg to stand on.

 

[AJG]

Yes, I’m saying Fauci was lying. In a court of law he would make a poor witness to a case. How could you trust anything he’s saying if he was willfully lying to us in the past? And remember this is the same man that was advising Trump.

On your point of following the advice of experts now. Do you then agree with the assessment of WHO that lockdowns cause more harm than the virus?

Yes, he did lie, and he admitted he lied because he was concerned about the people who need PPE the most not being able to get it. It was a terrible decision since his words have been used to discredit both him and the wearing of masks, although his intentions were good and I can understand why he did it. As far as I know his views are pretty consistent with the latest scientific research, and he doesn't have a history of lying like other people in the Trump administration do. He is also one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases and he's still well respected in the scientific community. So yes, I still trust him, although like I've said, I rely on consensus not one expert's opinion.

Also, the WHO didn't say that lockdowns cause more harm than the virus. This is what they said:

“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.

“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”

I definitely agree that lockdowns should not be the primary means of controlling the virus. We should be doing other things first, like wearing masks, social distancing, and there should be coordinated, national effort to combat the virus using contact tracing, widespread testing, and other ways to prevent the spread of the virus. However, Trump's insistence on having each state handle the virus has lead to a pretty uncoordinated effort, and his actions and words have lead to many people in the U.S. to not take masks, social distancing, or this virus seriously. Because of that none of the means that should primarily be used to control the virus have been very effective, leading to the need for lockdowns.

 

[Overitall]

Actually, it has.

Modern artificial fabrics make it possible to weave a breathable fabric that will trap particles down to a design standard.

That was not possible in 1918.

I see nothing in what I said disputed here. I did say the design has changed.

 

[Vern]

I see nothing in what I said disputed here. I did say the design has changed.

Hey O, where'd you go? By your own standards you are obligated to answer the question "why is trump's and republicans' dishonesty and incompetence that has killed Americans and hurt the economy acceptable to you?" oh and your own standards obligate you to respond to the fact that they are still lying about masks. do you want me to make it a multiple choice question? no problem, I'm always happy to help.

A I hate America
B Whatever our dear leader does is the right thing
C I'm attracted to Putin and it makes him happy to see more Americans die and our economy to suffer
D All of the above

 

[Lursa]

The latest direction coming from WHO is that lockdowns cause more harm than good.

WHO warns against COVID-19 lockdowns due to economic damage

The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks — after previously saying countries should be careful how quickly they reopen. WHO e…

nypost.com

From your link:

We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.

“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”

WHO warns against COVID-19 lockdowns due to economic damage

The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks — after previously saying countries should be careful how quickly they reopen. WHO e…

nypost.com

That is what we did, and for those reasons. Now....where is the rest of the interview? Where are the WHO's recommendations for what we should have done?

It's obvious that we reopened too suddenly, rather than gradually...our cases are again climbing thru the roof.

Where does it say what we should have done?

 

[Overitall]

Hey O, where'd you go? By your own standards you are obligated to answer the question "why is trump's and republicans' dishonesty and incompetence that has killed Americans and hurt the economy acceptable to you?" oh and your own standards obligate you to respond to the fact that they are still lying about masks. do you want me to make it a multiple choice question? no problem, I'm always happy to help.

A I hate America
B Whatever our dear leader does is the right thing
C I'm attracted to Putin and it makes him happy to see more Americans die and our economy to suffer
D All of the above

Trouble with Internet going in and out. I’ll try later. Sorry.