American France?

[mistermain]

As a foreignes it was intersted but also a bit strange all the disgust and hatred many American had for France because they didn't follow USA into the Iraq war. But how much discusion has it been about France living up to American ideals? Because yes you can say many bad things about France and there motives, but the result was still that the lived up the American ideals that the goverment should follow the will of the people and not the will of foreigerns powers. Also it was not only the French people who was against the war but also the British and Spanish people was against the war. So if you want you can say that who's goverment didn't live up to American ideals.

Ok this idea may not fly amongst of some of you Americans. But even if it's not the case here, isn't it better that foreign countries stand up for American ideals then that they stand up for the American goverments.

I just hate berets. You guys don't really wear those things do you. We have some poser Americans that do (like the guy from Mythbusters). But I love French Toast!

 

[teacher]

A France thread?

 

[teacher]

Any one see Thomas Friedman's documentary on this subject? Check it out. Answers all.

 

[SKILMATIC]

The truth is that France gets bashed for the same reason the US gets bashed, insufferable arrogance and the failure to handle criticizm..

Well that maybe but france has a much more problem with pride. WE are more arrogant and strong and we have a reason to be.

France isnt even number 1 in anything except the number 1 worst birth rate.

 

[teacher]

Little out of character for me but I'll comment on France.

On the matter of Iraq they let money be the deciding factor. Period. They got caught red handed doing all sorts of shady stuff. Period. As a member of the security council they were privy to operational plans for the invasion of Iraq and they told Saddam. Their press and government makes every effort to make their people dislike the American government. Now they can only fess up, or lie, obfuscate, deflect, place blame elsewhere, ect, in short, be French. The place would be better off populated by monkeys. And I'm working on that.

Hey gunny, was that French munitions you saw with your own eyes, dated, in Iraq?

 

[Inuyasha]

Well that maybe but france has a much more problem with pride. WE are more arrogant and strong and we have a reason to be.

France isnt even number 1 in anything except the number 1 worst birth rate.

No one except a total jerk has the right to be arrogant. A great person doesn't have to be arrogant. We are number one of the monder nations true... in being arrogant. You just pushed us 2 paces ahead of the Frenchies with that post. The French may not be number one but we are losing that spot at a pace that is as fast as the disappearing delta marshlands. We are NOT number one in evrything. Maybe we can say we are the luckiest nation in the world... at present anyway., but that's about it.

I am fairly well traveled and I have found that every place I have been has its own measure of greatness. But i have yet to find a country that can say it's the "best" country in the world. But they all say it anyway.

 

[Inuyasha]

Side bar- we are also vewru good at bragging but it's neck and neck with those Frenchies . I think we gottem' beat on this one though. Damn it it good to be the king.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

If only the French had questioned Michael Moore with the same ardor as they opposed the war...we could believe their sincerity.

Have you talked to many Americans who have visited France?

How about Latin Americans?

This was written by a......Frenchman!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6976

How about this:

"Not content with simply voicing their opposition, the French actively fought the Americans at every turn. They delivered condescending lectures on the arrogance of the United States and the sanctity of Iraqi sovereignty. They insisted that the Bush administration proceed only with the approval of the United Nations—and then threatened to use their veto power on the Security Council to block effective military action. They went so far as to form a new political axis with Germany and Russia and tried to rally the world against the American resolve. They insulted and bullied countries that chose to defy Paris and support the United States. They publicly declared the nations of Africa to be opposed to an invasion of Iraq, though their claims were based on pledges that had not in fact been made. In a provocative and totally unprecedented move, they endangered a cornerstone of Western security by attempting to block a request from fellow NATO member Turkey for defensive military equipment to be used in the event of an Iraqi attack. France’s entire foreign policy seemed driven by belligerence toward the United States."

http://www.oldestenemy.com/read.php

Just one thing, Americans oldest allied is French along with my country Sweden. (Ok maybee not my country, but we was jthe first country to acknowledge USA indepedence but French was your first allied by supporting you in your indepedence war). The UK is you oldest enemy (even if it is your allied now).

If you know anything about the world opinion for or against the war you should now that it was mostly against the war. France just became one of the leaders for the opinion against the war. But yes I can understand it was much more easy to sell that the evil french was against the war compared to say that most of the world is stupid.

I don't know that frenchman but I know alot of his swedish friends at swedish liberal newspapers, that couldn't understand that you could both be againt a dictator and against a war against a dictator. In contrast to most of the swedish people.

But all of you that though it was wrong for French not to go to war? Don't you see the risk of going to war with allied country there the people are against the war.

 

[Inuyasha]

Just one thing, Americans oldest allied is French along with my country Sweden. (Ok maybee not my country, but we was jthe first country to acknowledge USA indepedence but French was your first allied by supporting you in your indepedence war). The UK is you oldest enemy (even if it is your allied now).

If you know anything about the world opinion for or against the war you should now that it was mostly against the war. France just became one of the leaders for the opinion against the war. But yes I can understand it was much more easy to sell that the evil french was against the war compared to say that most of the world is stupid.

I don't know that frenchman but I know alot of his swedish friends at swedish liberal newspapers, that couldn't understand that you could both be againt a dictator and against a war against a dictator. In contrast to most of the swedish people.

But all of you that though it was wrong for French not to go to war? Don't you see the risk of going to war with allied country there the people are against the war.

IT's true Bergi that most of us in America are arrogant as well as ihnorant. This voiliyile mixture does not produce anything but stuupidity. You can see from the flippant comments the frustation this nation is feeling. The conservatives have decided to hate the French, ignore history and put their heads in the the sands of "no reason". The liberals are simply fighting to survive in a land that is showing more fascist tendeancies daily,

Today it's "It's my way or you are againt me" whicvh will soon restult in an evem nmore divided and islolated nation. We think that we can get along without the rest of the world but that the rest of the world has a dire need for us. Both concepts are incorrect abd only lead to more hatered, If the Frech hate us we hate them back doubly. All I have seen is a lot of people who are quick to criticize other nations but unable to apply that same critical power to themselves, We are always right or always ready with a boxcar load mostly paltry of excuses for our rude and predjudice behavior. It's as if the populace has a massive death wish in many ways. FRance is still Americas friend.

When I go after the French it is from the Spanish point of view. They have obstructed Spain at almost every turn sunce the "War of Independence" against Napoleon. You know thge details right up to the EU obstructions of the 80's.

America learned a great lesson from the China of the middle decades of the 20th century. If you give the people an "outside" enemy they will spend more time concentrating on that enemy than on domestic problems and you can whip the general poulace into an ultra-national frenzy at the drop of a hat. That is what is happening here today. Successive adminidtrations sine 1960 have workrd hard to present the American people with outside enemies so now Americans think the whole world hates them. When the truth is that most of the world doesn't really give a tinker's damn.

Again it will do you little good to argue Liberal vs Conservative until you understand that these definitions are one thing in America and a completely differnt thing in Europe. So then one just goes down the line and sees that in gerenal in America we have the same words as Ehrope but with highly different meanings.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I'm saying that our military involvement is more out of economic interests and geopolitical strategy... its not out of good will to help these countries. Of course there are times when threats had to be mitigated through our military because of ramifications of the threat (e.g Kashmir, Korea, etc.) But military involvement in the Mid-East overall, military involvement in South America, military involvement in Central Asia is not out of good will and help. And the US will not pull out of these places, until their own interests are secured (regardless of our say).


BTW... I don't see how not supporting the war regardless of their reasons makes the French cowards.

Again... I have no problem with a pull out of our troops. But once there out they stay out. I don't want to hear about some dictator wiping out entire cities of a people. Problems will be handled internally. The strong survive the weak... well there fuked.

Our interest tend to also secure others interest. You don't think Europe reaps the benfits of our policy. If the ME was left to it's own devices it would be a black whole. Industry would be in shambles on a global scale. The oil market wouldn't be a fraction of what it is. Our policies didn't turn the ME into the hole that it is now. It's was a hole long before we showed up.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

The truth is that France gets bashed for the same reason the US gets bashed, insufferable arrogance and the failure to handle criticizm..

I think this country handles criticizm fine. Were pretty used to certain countries such as france complaining and saying were cowboys or were ignorant. Let em talk, not like we give a **** what they say anyway. Best way to deal with there criticism IMO is to ignore it. And we do that anyway

 

[Inuyasha]

I think this country handles criticizm fine. Were pretty used to certain countries such as france complaining and saying were cowboys or were ignorant. Let em talk, not like we give a **** what they say anyway. Best way to deal with there criticism IMO is to ignore it. And we do that anyway

I would have made the statement if I hadn't noticed all the crying on this and other sites. Ignore it? NOT.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I would have made the statement if I hadn't noticed all the crying on this and other sites. Ignore it? NOT.

Why not ignore it?

 

[Inuyasha]

Why not ignore it?

Well I think I explain that in my signature. However.My opinion. I feel that i if listen, with an open mind, to the criticizm that may be leveled at me it can't hurt me and if the criticizm is just and valid I can only improve myself and my situation by NOT ignoring it.

Don't get me wrong. Not everything that is said to you is a valid criticizm. If someone says "You dumb hillbilly, you are an SOB." That is not criticizm, it's an insult. So one has to be able to distinguish.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Well I think I explain that in my signature. However.My opinion. I feel that i if listen, with an open mind, to the criticizm that may be leveled at me it can't hurt me and if the criticizm is just and valid I can only improve myself and my situation by NOT ignoring it.

Don't get me wrong. Not everything that is said to you is a valid criticizm. If someone says "You dumb hillbilly, you are an SOB." That is not criticizm, it's an insult. So one has to be able to distinguish.

I understand that. The problem is if the same people complain everytime. How do you distinguish between the the crap and whats worth listening to. The people we are talking about, have nothing but complaints day in and day out. It's hard to do anything but ignore them

 

[Inuyasha]

Sometimes it is difficult to distingush between an insult, a complaint and honest criticizm. But that is rare. Don't reply to complaints and insults and use criticizm as a tool to help yourself. People tend to do all three. And sometimes all together. Here is a true story. My best friend said to me once

Jesus shut up with the whinning for a minute. (complaint) You have to get your head together, put the glass down for a minute and think. (criticism). You Jackass (insult).

If some one says the same thing over over , yes, it's ignore time. Even if he keeps telling you how great and wonderful you are over and over.

 

[GarzaUK]

Europe and America.

It's like two men who fended off a mugger (Soviet Union), then when they go for a beer to celebrate, they realise that they have nothing in common.

That strange fact is the two need each other. Why do you think Rumsfeld and Bush swallowed their pride and went to Europe to "heal" rifts after his re-election. I can assure you it wasn't through the kindness of their hearts.

Europeans just do not like the neo-con foreign policy that America has taken since 9/11. It is an arrogant "we'll do what we like policy" while flipping the bird at the world. "We're bigger than you, so move out of the way." attitute ain't going to help your friendships or rep.
But at least during Iraq you have realised that you can't go it alone. That's why Bush had give up his pride and ask the UN for help on Iraq.

Thankfully though the neo-con foreign policy is failing, the mission to establish liberal democracies in every Middle East country has backfired. And now maybe we can concentrate in ending Islamic terrorism instead of warring against states.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Europe and America.

It's like two men who fended off a mugger (Soviet Union), then when they go for a beer to celebrate, they realise that they have nothing in common.

That strange fact is the two need each other. Why do you think Rumsfeld and Bush swallowed their pride and went to Europe to "heal" rifts after his re-election. I can assure you it wasn't through the kindness of their hearts.

Europeans just do not like the neo-con foreign policy that America has taken since 9/11. It is an arrogant "we'll do what we like policy" while flipping the bird at the world. "We're bigger than you, so move out of the way." attitute ain't going to help your friendships or rep.
But at least during Iraq you have realised that you can't go it alone. That's why Bush had give up his pride and ask the UN for help on Iraq.

Thankfully though the neo-con foreign policy is failing, the mission to establish liberal democracies in every Middle East country has backfired. And now maybe we can concentrate in ending Islamic terrorism instead of warring against states.

And how are we going to end it.. Talk them to death? More sanctions that don't work and only effect innocent people?

 

[SKILMATIC]

No one except a total jerk has the right to be arrogant. A great person doesn't have to be arrogant. We are number one of the monder nations true... in being arrogant. You just pushed us 2 paces ahead of the Frenchies with that post. The French may not be number one but we are losing that spot at a pace that is as fast as the disappearing delta marshlands. We are NOT number one in evrything. Maybe we can say we are the luckiest nation in the world... at present anyway., but that's about it.

I am fairly well traveled and I have found that every place I have been has its own measure of greatness. But i have yet to find a country that can say it's the "best" country in the world. But they all say it anyway.

Well that may be but you cant argue that this country does have more greatness than anywhere else. To think otherwise is illogical and ignorance at its best. I never once said we have the right to be arrogant I simply stated you facts you can either take them or leave them. I have also traveled the world and I can solemly say this is the best country on planet earth by far. I dont know where you have been but I have even been to England and all over the Euro platform and its not as good as this country. Sorry.

 

[Inuyasha]

Well that may be but you cant argue that this country does have more greatness than anywhere else. To think otherwise is illogical and ignorance at its best. I never once said we have the right to be arrogant I simply stated you facts you can either take them or leave them. I have also traveled the world and I can solemly say this is the best country on planet earth by far. I dont know where you have been but I have even been to England and all over the Euro platform and its not as good as this country. Sorry.

You sound just like many Japanese, Germans, Russians and Brits etcthat i have met. All have one thing in common when it comes right down to it they also cannot prove they are better. It boils down to emotion and subjective bragging. I am the one who us sorry but you are wrong. If not please prove that we are BETTER than any one else. The fact is you LIKE you country BETTER than you like others. That proves nothing because it is not objective, It is bias if nothing else. And bais is rooted in emotion. The truth is simple "America is the best country in the world....FOR YOU. That's it. And the FOR YOU is totally subjective. Simply saying you are the best in devoid of logic and is a myth. Anything else is simply bad mannered and arrogant. If that is how you think it's probably better for all of us that you are not working in the State Deparment. At best you arguments are simply bovine excrement. Sorry to insult you but it seems that that is what you want to do so i will comply.

 

[Elektra]

Well that may be but you cant argue that this country does have more greatness than anywhere else. To think otherwise is illogical and ignorance at its best. I never once said we have the right to be arrogant I simply stated you facts you can either take them or leave them. I have also traveled the world and I can solemly say this is the best country on planet earth by far. I dont know where you have been but I have even been to England and all over the Euro platform and its not as good as this country. Sorry.

So you think america has the most greatness and you think the U.K is not as good as America.

And this is an argument for what exactly?

 

[GarzaUK]

And how are we going to end it.. Talk them to death? More sanctions that don't work and only effect innocent people?

War doesn't work and effects innocent people too. Trust me, I live in a province that seen 30 years of terrorism. Do you know how we ended it? Not through bombs and bullets, through thinning down their recruitment lines.

War only helps to enlarge the recruitment lines. Terrorism supplies aren't guns or food, it's people.

In the UK Islamic radicalism has risen because of the wars in the middle east, because Islamic people get pissed off when nations wage illegal wars and see their fellow innocent muslims dying.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Sometimes it is difficult to distingush between an insult, a complaint and honest criticizm. But that is rare. Don't reply to complaints and insults and use criticizm as a tool to help yourself. People tend to do all three. And sometimes all together. Here is a true story. My best friend said to me once

Jesus shut up with the whinning for a minute. (complaint) You have to get your head together, put the glass down for a minute and think. (criticism). You Jackass (insult).

If some one says the same thing over over , yes, it's ignore time. Even if he keeps telling you how great and wonderful you are over and over.

Yep you totally right that critizism can be a good thing but it should be relevant and not be repetead to death. Also as you I think the rest of the world have all the right to critize America, because we buy and watch alot of your movies, ads for your products and your products. So by absorbing and taking in your culture we also have the right to critizes it. So we can stop critize America but it will not happen before we stop buying your products and watch your movies or you stop selling them.
________
Also yes was maybee not a good idea to take up swedish liberals in my last post, but just described how it is in Sweden. There as a socialdemocratic I think the liberals can be ok and atleast better then the conservatives (even if they in Sweden are buddies), but that the people on the liberal opionpages in the newspapers is really stupid.
_____
Back to the thread, yes I also think there are diffrence between Europe and USA that is pretty big, but also similarities. Like for example that if the american goverment said screw you to UN, EU Whateveristan we will follow the will of the people and not join your war, that would be appreciated. Just like fthe France goverment. But if the American goverment said ok we will join UN, EU Whateveristan war against the will of the people, it would be disliked for it. Just like the UK goverment.

Also I havn't got any good answer about if it is not a risk for USA going to war with allies there the people are against the war. So will answer myself from indirect answer in this thread and other assumptions. That the answer is no because the allies is mainly on the bandwagon for propagande reason, to show that USA have international support. So if they leave you can just say that they are cowards. But of course it is a risk that even "true american patriot" will start question Bush for starting alliances with so many "cowards".

 

[Inuyasha]

One of the major problems between the US and Europe is simply one of sematics. Even the most gerneral terms Liberal and Conservative mean something quite different to an American and a European. Now you can imagine that we become even more separated when it comes to the word "socialist". Then terms like "christian democrat" really don't mean much to an American.

Again there are entities like thrid and fourth parties are commonplace among Europeans. It is not uncommon for European nations to field 5 or even 6 parties in a national election and all of these parties are taken with the utmost seriousness. It is not the case in the US. Yes we have other parties besides the Democrats and the Republicans but third and fourth parties have never been taken very seriously by the American electorate. Usually we look about these groups as for the most part as "kooks" and/or political misfits. It is the fault of many of the other parties that they get this label placed on them. In my own case i was elated in the beginning by Ross Perot's new party but the more I listen to the man the more I began to distance myself because in his ramblings he just appeared to me as a rich "kook". The same for the La Rousche people. They are more like a cult than a ligitimate political party. I am even wary of the one party that does do something and that's Nader's group. These third parties never have a really all inclusive solid platform. They have one agenda that for the most part does not address the total needs of the people. I think the only "outsiders" that are taken half way seriously are those who call themseves "independants" but are more apt to identfy with either Reps or Dems.

With this in mind, often the arguments and discussions between many Americans and Europeans become a total frustation to both.

 

[vergiss]

Well that may be but you cant argue that this country does have more greatness than anywhere else. To think otherwise is illogical and ignorance at its best. I never once said we have the right to be arrogant I simply stated you facts you can either take them or leave them. I have also traveled the world and I can solemly say this is the best country on planet earth by far. I dont know where you have been but I have even been to England and all over the Euro platform and its not as good as this country. Sorry.

That's merely your opinion. Sorry.