American France?

[Bergslagstroll]

As a foreignes it was intersted but also a bit strange all the disgust and hatred many American had for France because they didn't follow USA into the Iraq war. But how much discusion has it been about France living up to American ideals? Because yes you can say many bad things about France and there motives, but the result was still that the lived up the American ideals that the goverment should follow the will of the people and not the will of foreigerns powers. Also it was not only the French people who was against the war but also the British and Spanish people was against the war. So if you want you can say that who's goverment didn't live up to American ideals.

Ok this idea may not fly amongst of some of you Americans. But even if it's not the case here, isn't it better that foreign countries stand up for American ideals then that they stand up for the American goverments.

 

[FinnMacCool]

I don't hate France. A lot of americans do now because they wouldn't go to war with them but they are hypocrites.

 

[Inuyasha]

I don't hate France. A lot of americans do now because they wouldn't go to war with them but they are hypocrites.

But don't you think that is "cultural" with them? I mean they have been hypocritical throughout history. I think they have some sort of national pride in their brand of hypocracy and i don't mean it as an insult.

 

[nkgupta80]

As a foreignes it was intersted but also a bit strange all the disgust and hatred many American had for France because they didn't follow USA into the Iraq war. But how much discusion has it been about France living up to American ideals? Because yes you can say many bad things about France and there motives, but the result was still that the lived up the American ideals that the goverment should follow the will of the people and not the will of foreigerns powers. Also it was not only the French people who was against the war but also the British and Spanish people was against the war. So if you want you can say that who's goverment didn't live up to American ideals.

Ok this idea may not fly amongst of some of you Americans. But even if it's not the case here, isn't it better that foreign countries stand up for American ideals then that they stand up for the American goverments.

good way of looking at it, although I may question whether the French government's decision wash based on the view of its people rather than its own ulterior motives.

 

[Inuyasha]

As a foreignes it was intersted but also a bit strange all the disgust and hatred many American had for France because they didn't follow USA into the Iraq war. But how much discusion has it been about France living up to American ideals? Because yes you can say many bad things about France and there motives, but the result was still that the lived up the American ideals that the goverment should follow the will of the people and not the will of foreigerns powers. Also it was not only the French people who was against the war but also the British and Spanish people was against the war. So if you want you can say that who's goverment didn't live up to American ideals.

Ok this idea may not fly amongst of some of you Americans. But even if it's not the case here, isn't it better that foreign countries stand up for American ideals then that they stand up for the American goverments.

If those ideals are in keeping with that countries national character and its ideals. Simply following the lead of another country is not always, or even rarely possible.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I think it comes down to a lot more then just following us into war. And france did not follow us because the people were against it. they were more concerned about losing the money from the shady loans that they had. And not wanting toget there ass caught in the cookie jar. But that is not the only thing. There has been ongoing disputes as per the UN, air space, things like that. France knows its just as easy to sit back and say no to everything because sooner or later someone else will take care of it. That way it cost them nothing and they can still cast there moral judgements. Judging the US is easy. Specially when you judge it from WAYYYYYYY in the back behind those that actually have to stand up when theres a problem.

Not to mention. I rarely here someone from france speak kindly of America or Americans

 

[Inuyasha]

I spend half of the year in Europe and I'¡l tell you that I rarely hear the French say anything good about anybody but themselves.In Spain we hate them. See at least you don't have to live nextdoor to them.

But all kidding aside, most people in Europe don't want the conflict. You can't blame them many still remember WWII and the aftermath. I don't think anyone wants to even think about going through that again. I am sure that plays a big part in thier thinking but if things continue as they are the entire West is going to have to rethink the concepts we have held since WWII.

 

[GarzaUK]

France was made a scapecoat, pure and simple. It's politics 101. If you want something, and someone is in your way, riducule them.

France would have vetoed the UN resolution, however so would Russia and China. Also traditional allies like Mexico and Chile would have said no. In fact in the security council the US could only get support from UK, Spain and Bulgaria. That's why the resolution was withdrawn, to save US embarassment, not because of the French.

In actual fact all that France wanted was to give the weapons inspectors more time on the job. (Hans Blix said he needed only 4 months max) Chirac even said if Saddam didn't comply fully, he would support an invasion.

Was it right for Cheney and Rumsfeld to riducule the weapons inspectors effort?
Was it right for the US to press on with invasion even though 4 months would have determined that Iraq posed no threat? Saving thousands of lives.

Four months for christ sake. Bush and co wanted to go to war - no matter what.

 

[Bergslagstroll]

Of course a country should follow it's own cultural and indepedence first. But then it decide to follow another country in this case the USA. That do you americans think is best following your ideals or your goverment if it was a choise between them. Personally as a swed I would think it was better if other followed our ideals (or more likely in the case of Sweden followed there own ideals resemblings ours) then following the demande of our goverment (well it is a chance that we could push Iceland around).

Also it is a risk for you Americans to have allies in war there the people is not supporting there leaders in following you into war. Look just at the countries that has left the coalition. Especially Spain, there the atacks on there homeland became the last straw for a people already against the war.

Also how can you be so certain that France leaders didn't though anything about the will of the people?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

France was made a scapecoat, pure and simple. It's politics 101. If you want something, and someone is in your way, riducule them.

France would have vetoed the UN resolution, however so would Russia and China. Also traditional allies like Mexico and Chile would have said no. In fact in the security council the US could only get support from UK, Spain and Bulgaria. That's why the resolution was withdrawn, to save US embarassment, not because of the French.

In actual fact all that France wanted was to give the weapons inspectors more time on the job. (Hans Blix said he needed only 4 months max) Chirac even said if Saddam didn't comply fully, he would support an invasion.

Was it right for Cheney and Rumsfeld to riducule the weapons inspectors effort?
Was it right for the US to press on with invasion even though 4 months would have determined that Iraq posed no threat? Saving thousands of lives.

Four months for christ sake. Bush and co wanted to go to war - no matter what.

All the other months weren't suffecient?

Nobody makes france a scapegoat but france. But it is politics 101. And if there is nothing in it for france directly tey see no reason for doing anything. I can understand the logic. But don't try and take the moral highground when your making money off of saddam and the iraqi people.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Of course a country should follow it's own cultural and indepedence first. But then it decide to follow another country in this case the USA. That do you americans think is best following your ideals or your goverment if it was a choise between them. Personally as a swed I would think it was better if other followed our ideals (or more likely in the case of Sweden followed there own ideals resemblings ours) then following the demande of our goverment (well it is a chance that we could push Iceland around).

Also it is a risk for you Americans to have allies in war there the people is not supporting there leaders in following you into war. Look just at the countries that has left the coalition. Especially Spain, there the atacks on there homeland became the last straw for a people already against the war.

Also how can you be so certain that France leaders didn't though anything about the will of the people?

Well if your fighting, and your enemy strikes at you. Obviously the best thing to do is run away and hide. Spain let the terrorist know that if you do what they do, it will be effective. So if you know it works why stop.

 

[nkgupta80]

Not to mention. I rarely here someone from france speak kindly of America or Americans

i rarely hear anyone from the world speak kindly of the US....

yes, you're right when you said that France didn't join because of their investment in Iraq. But what country would want to hurt its own interests. If you think the US is only there for terrorism and the WMDs... then you're mistaken. I'm not sayin whose wrong or right, but every war is driven by ulterior economic motives, and this Iraq war is blatantly one also. If Iraq were a launching pad for an overall fight against terrorism, we wouldn't be feeding billions to the Sauds or Pakistan... Thus, I don't blame France for not joining, nor Russia, nor china. Its funny that teh only people who didn't have these investments in Iraq are the ones in the war. Just a thought.

As to french people, yeah they're pretty snobby especially when it comes to their language. They don't want to try adding anything foreign to their language. This becomes really tough when they come up with their own technical jargon for words that are otherwise standard in all other parts of the world (e.g. computer terms).

 

[Calm2Chaos]

i rarely hear anyone from the world speak kindly of the US....

Foutunately for us or me ...don't really give a shi t what the world says. They don't like us, or talk sh it , thats fine.

I'm still of the opinion we should pull out and stay out of everything. Everyone solves there own problems. You crash and burn, then we auction off your land and start something better there. Don't complain about bad or mean people, warlords or genocide. You have your problems, fix them or fade away

I am truly crushed when the french talk shi t though....:2razz:

yes, you're right when you said that France didn't join because of their investment in Iraq. But what country would want to hurt its own interests. If you think the US is only there for terrorism and the WMDs... then you're mistaken. I'm not sayin whose wrong or right, but every war is driven by ulterior economic motives, and this Iraq war is blatantly one also. If Iraq were a launching pad for an overall fight against terrorism, we wouldn't be feeding billions to the Sauds or Pakistan... Thus, I don't blame France for not joining, nor Russia, nor china. Its funny that teh only people who didn't have these investments in Iraq are the ones in the war. Just a thought.

Well maybe that had a lot to do with the fact that those loans were pretty questionable. And that they didn't want those questionable loans being defaulted on. Or maybe they just didn't want the world to know about them in the first place.

As to french people, yeah they're pretty snobby especially when it comes to their language. They don't want to try adding anything foreign to their language. This becomes really tough when they come up with their own technical jargon for words that are otherwise standard in all other parts of the world (e.g. computer terms).

Maybe part of the reason the french aren't a driving techological force in the world.... :doh

But in the end it's france. Ya take anything they say and do with a grain of salt..

 

[nkgupta80]

Well maybe that had a lot to do with the fact that those loans were pretty questionable. And that they didn't want those questionable loans being defaulted on. Or maybe they just didn't want the world to know about them in the first place.

and why don't china, russia, and germany get the same beating france gets. They all had similar investments. Anyways the country


Its interesting how many of the central asian states are trying to rid US involvement in favor of Chinese investment. US doesn't want to leave. Theres been quite a few controversy in that area because of it.

Foutunately for us or me ...don't really give a shi t what the world says. They don't like us, or talk sh it , thats fine.

I'm still of the opinion we should pull out and stay out of everything. Everyone solves there own problems. You crash and burn, then we auction off your land and start something better there. Don't complain about bad or mean people, warlords or genocide. You have your problems, fix them or fade away

Actually thats is the general consensus most countries have... they don't want US involvement. (I'm not talkin of **** poor countries like in Africa, that really need planned foreign assistance to get anywhere), but countries like India and China really wnat to see the US military gone in their areas.

as to not give a **** about what the world says... not a good thing cause America is really screwed without the world. Any country for that matter is ****edd without healthy partnership in the world. Our world is too globalized.

Pretty much all of US military involvement in the world is due to securing of economic interests or previously established involvment during the cold war. It is actually not in the economic/financial interests of our government to pull out of the world, regardless of what we as Americans may say.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

and why don't china, russia, and germany get the same beating france gets. They all had similar investments. Anyways the country

Germany did catch it also, and so did russia, China not so much though. Theres just a larger riff with france then there is with germany and russia for some reason. A lot of americans see them as cowards i think. And regaurdless of your politics americans tend not to like cowards. I have more respect for you if you stand up and lose then if you never stand up at all.

Its interesting how many of the central asian states are trying to rid US involvement in favor of Chinese investment. US doesn't want to leave. Theres been quite a few controversy in that area because of it.



Actually thats is the general consensus most countries have... they don't want US involvement. (I'm not talkin of **** poor countries like in Africa, that really need planned foreign assistance to get anywhere), but countries like India and China really wnat to see the US military gone in their areas.

as to not give a **** about what the world says... not a good thing cause America is really screwed without the world. Any country for that matter is ****edd without healthy partnership in the world. Our world is too globalized.

Pretty much all of US military involvement in the world is due to securing of economic interests or previously established involvment during the cold war. It is actually not in the economic/financial interests of our government to pull out of the world, regardless of what we as Americans may say.

You want to survive do it on your own. And I have no problem with that. As long as realization is there, that when or if it all blows up. We are going to allow it to happen. I am not talking about pulling out of the global trade market. I am talking strictly millitarily. I have no problem with importing and exporting goods. But I would prefer That my millitary was not involved in any international problems whatsoever. Keep them out of other peoples business, let that country deal with there own problems. Use them to secure immediate homeland threats. The strong will survive the weak will not.

What I think your going to find is the biggest and most well armed war lords are going to take control of these smaller countries. And your going to end up with very well equipped small armies, and a lot more deaths of those that can't fight back. Whats to stop them once they know there is no retribution coming from any other nations.

 

[Inuyasha]

Well if your fighting, and your enemy strikes at you. Obviously the best thing to do is run away and hide. Spain let the terrorist know that if you do what they do, it will be effective. So if you know it works why stop.

This is total crappola. The Spanish Flalange (PP) thouht thet could curry favor with a right wing US government and the people shut them down. All the while Spain srtruggled to get out from under a dictator the US did nothing. The Spanish people pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps to have the fastest growing ecomoy in history sencod oly to Jpan in spite of the obstacles put in their way by the US and the UK over the years. Get this SPAIN OWES THE US AND THE UK ABOSLUTLEY NOTHING. Spain under the dictator and since has NEVER been the recipient of any of the US's bull**** "welfare type aid. The US wanted the bases in Spain and Franco charged them and arm and a leg. The only good thing he ever did. I say Viva España.

GTW for m onths before the election the people were down on it because BUsh promised Spain things that were not forth coming and the Spanish press kept asking., "Where are the benifits? Only US and UK companies are getting them . So what are we in Iraq except looking like lackies and making fools of ourselves." Things that were promised never materialized. So B and B lied to Spain. Had they given even a token the PP would still be in power and Zapatero and the PSOE would not.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

This is total crappola. The Spanish Flalange (PP) thouht thet could curry favor with a right wing US government and the people shut them down. All the while Spain srtruggled to get out from under a dictator the US did nothing. The Spanish people pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps to have the fastest growing ecomoy in history sencod oly to Jpan in spite of the obstacles put in their way by the US and the UK over the years. Get this SPAIN OWES THE US AND THE UK ABOSLUTLEY NOTHING. Spain under the dictator and since has NEVER been the recipient of any of the US's bull**** "welfare type aid. The US wanted the bases in Spain and Franco charged them and arm and a leg. The only good thing he ever did. I say Viva España.

GTW for m onths before the election the people were down on it because BUsh promised Spain things that were not forth coming and the Spanish press kept asking., "Where are the benifits? Only US and UK companies are getting them . So what are we in Iraq except looking like lackies and making fools of ourselves." Things that were promised never materialized. So B and B lied to Spain. Had they given even a token the PP would still be in power and Zapatero and the PSOE would not.

They split. Why should they get anything?

As far as spain goes good for them. You don't like it screw the US. Tell em to go fuk off. Not like were going to miss em or anything. But at least they took a shot at it. but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. There 1,300 hundred troops can now sleep at home...

What exactly was promised spain?

 

[Inuyasha]

They split. Why should they get anything?

They split because the UK and the US reniged on the contract promises and gave them to their own. Hell you're an American. You should know that "business is business" or the great phrase "What's in it for me?" Some one pulls that kind of a number on the US are you going sit there and take it? Hell no, you're going to yell you head off and rightly so."

As far as spain goes good for them. You don't like it screw the US. Tell em to go fuk off. Not like were going to miss em or anything. But at least they took a shot at it. but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. There 1,300 hundred troops can now sleep at home...
That's exactly what I said. I also don't think that Spain is going to miss the US either and less the Brits. They haven't ever done anything in Spain's favor in 500 years of modern history. They sure as hell don't seem to be inclined to do so now.

What exactly was promised spain?

These Spanish companies were promised independent work projects in the reconstruction CESPA, PEORSA, (oil and petro chemicals), DRagados, Acciona (major construction), Luis Calvo (agriculture. Instand the projects were given, with no notice, to US and UK companies instead, breaking promisises made by both the Bush admin and Blair's people. Well, with friends like that who needs enemies?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

These Spanish companies were promised independent work projects in the reconstruction CESPA, PEORSA, (oil and petro chemicals), DRagados, Acciona (major construction), Luis Calvo (agriculture. Instand the projects were given, with no notice, to US and UK companies instead, breaking promisises made by both the Bush admin and Blair's people. Well, with friends like that who needs enemies?

It's not over yet. Do you think there going to give the prime contracts to spain? NO... why should they they should go to those that invested the most. But they should get a share I agree. But since things are not done maybe there has to be a little waiting before everything really gets ramped up. I dunno, if they are involved they deserve something. But it's not over and they split so not really sure whats owed them

 

[Inuyasha]

It's not over yet. Do you think there going to give the prime contracts to spain? NO... why should they they should go to those that invested the most. But they should get a share I agree. But since things are not done maybe there has to be a little waiting before everything really gets ramped up. I dunno, if they are involved they deserve something. But it's not over and they split so not really sure whats owed them

According to what came out in the Spanish press they weren't on the Halliburton level. The point is they were put on the table and while the troops were a still then they were taken off the table with no prior notification. Do you think the Spanish or anyone else should stay there with no guarantees just because the US is leading the coalition? I hope not because that would make no sense at all.

Look I defend my kids when they are right. When they do something that is not right I come down on them. Makes for a good family and by the same token the idea makes for a good country. "My country right or wrong." Do you think that is a good philosophy? That's not patriotism it's chauvanism. The man who does not have the guts to criticize his own country when it is wrong does not deserve the title of "patriot". The father who does not take his son to task when he has done wrong will soon be visiting him in a state correction institute.

 

[nkgupta80]

I am talking strictly millitarily. I have no problem with importing and exporting goods.

I'm saying that our military involvement is more out of economic interests and geopolitical strategy... its not out of good will to help these countries. Of course there are times when threats had to be mitigated through our military because of ramifications of the threat (e.g Kashmir, Korea, etc.) But military involvement in the Mid-East overall, military involvement in South America, military involvement in Central Asia is not out of good will and help. And the US will not pull out of these places, until their own interests are secured (regardless of our say).


BTW... I don't see how not supporting the war regardless of their reasons makes the French cowards.

 

[MiamiFlorida]

As a foreignes it was intersted but also a bit strange all the disgust and hatred many American had for France because they didn't follow USA into the Iraq war. But how much discusion has it been about France living up to American ideals? Because yes you can say many bad things about France and there motives, but the result was still that the lived up the American ideals that the goverment should follow the will of the people and not the will of foreigerns powers. Also it was not only the French people who was against the war but also the British and Spanish people was against the war. So if you want you can say that who's goverment didn't live up to American ideals.

Ok this idea may not fly amongst of some of you Americans. But even if it's not the case here, isn't it better that foreign countries stand up for American ideals then that they stand up for the American goverments.

If only the French had questioned Michael Moore with the same ardor as they opposed the war...we could believe their sincerity.

Have you talked to many Americans who have visited France?

How about Latin Americans?

This was written by a......Frenchman!

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=6976

How about this:

"Not content with simply voicing their opposition, the French actively fought the Americans at every turn. They delivered condescending lectures on the arrogance of the United States and the sanctity of Iraqi sovereignty. They insisted that the Bush administration proceed only with the approval of the United Nations—and then threatened to use their veto power on the Security Council to block effective military action. They went so far as to form a new political axis with Germany and Russia and tried to rally the world against the American resolve. They insulted and bullied countries that chose to defy Paris and support the United States. They publicly declared the nations of Africa to be opposed to an invasion of Iraq, though their claims were based on pledges that had not in fact been made. In a provocative and totally unprecedented move, they endangered a cornerstone of Western security by attempting to block a request from fellow NATO member Turkey for defensive military equipment to be used in the event of an Iraqi attack. France’s entire foreign policy seemed driven by belligerence toward the United States."

http://www.oldestenemy.com/read.php

 

[nkgupta80]

France’s entire foreign policy seemed driven by belligerence toward the United States.

Read through that paragraph of France's foreign policy when you take into account the fact that France had dealings with Sadaam, and favored Iraq. Then you'll see why everything seems to be against us.

and again the French aren't the only people against us...Europeans overall, most east asians, south asians, etc. all openly speak out against US actions. So... i don't see why france gets the blame.

 

[Inuyasha]

The truth is that France gets bashed for the same reason the US gets bashed, insufferable arrogance and the failure to handle criticizm..

 

[nkgupta80]

The truth is that France gets bashed for the same reason the US gets bashed, insufferable arrogance and the failure to handle criticizm..

yep, true true