american democracy in iraq

[MSgt]

The Middle east has been at war within itself for over 1500 years. Why would you think all of a sudden there can be peace because America says so?

They aren't going to do it "all of a sudden." (This would be more of your gibberish.) At this stage in history where the weapon of choice is the nuclear bomb (see Iran), we no longer have the luxury of making claims that "they have been at war with themselves for over 1500 years." Especially considering that we are their target.

One must consider when making such statements that never before in the Arab world has a country's citizens been permitted to vote on the laws that would govern them. Even if Iraq must endure further blood shed, this is a historic moment in the Middle East.

Nothing that has to do with change in the Middle East will be "all of a sudden."

 

[Gibberish]

Gibberish.

What part did not make sense to you? I thought it was written in English rather coherently. If you wish to verify which statement you failed to understand I would happily elaborate.

 

[MSgt]

What part did not make sense to you? I thought it was written in English rather coherently. If you wish to verify which statement you failed to understand I would happily elaborate.

Where in the world do we see "American" democracy? The rest of your gibberish was just venom and obtuse simplicity.

 

[Gibberish]

They aren't going to do it "all of a sudden." (This would be more of your gibberish.) At this stage in history where the weapon of choice is the nuclear bomb (see Iran), we no longer have the luxury of making claims that "they have been at war with themselves for over 1500 years." Especially considering that we are their target.

I fail to see what is gibberish about "all of a sudden", especially when you obviously understood my point since you rebuttaled with a detailed response.

One must consider when making such statements that never before in the Arab world has a country's citizens been permitted to vote on the laws that would govern them. Even if Iraq must endure further blood shed, this is a historic moment in the Middle East.

Saddam no longer in power is a good thing for Iraq. The problem here is the power that is dedicing the fate of the citizens was placed there by the US, not by the citizens. You have a country that is seperated by religious beliefs and do not tolerate each other. It would be an interesting and rather difficult task to find a safe medium between them.

Nothing that has to do with change in the Middle East will be "all of a sudden."

No it won't and i believe the Middle East will end up forging their future on their own no matter what the US thinks they should do.

 

[MSgt]

I fail to see what is gibberish about "all of a sudden", especially when you obviously understood my point since you rebuttaled with a detailed response.

"All of a sudden" is hardly the course and if "all of a sudden" is expected, then the expectation is unrealistic to the situation. Where has anyone said that this will lhappen "all of a sudden?" Gibberish.

Saddam no longer in power is a good thing for Iraq. The problem here is the power that is dedicing the fate of the citizens was placed there by the US, not by the citizens. You have a country that is seperated by religious beliefs and do not tolerate each other. It would be an interesting and rather difficult task to find a safe medium between them.

Last I saw (with the rest of the world I might add) was a free Iraqi election where they chose their own leadership. The solution to Iraq may be a three way split between Kurds, Sunni, and Shi'ites. If these people can't get a long because of passed down bigotries and racisms then so be it. We learned these lessons from the dissapointment that is Pakistan.

No it won't and i believe the Middle East will end up forging their future on their own no matter what the US thinks they should do.

The Only thing that will fix the Islamic world is Muslims. This role is reserved for themselves. There is no grand blindness to this fact. No one is expecting America to provide every bandaid. We are under no illusion that we will lead the Middle East into the 21st century. We can do far more than we have (especially on the fringes of the Arab world), but ultimately it is a self help world.

 

[justone]

Originally posted by justone
I am making an effort to negotiate peace with my enemy.

Then why are you talking to me?

You live in American, you know Americans. I do too. May be you have to go to the same office everyday, and hate a few people there or you are upset at somebody. I don’t know. I meet and talk to all different people from all ways of life. You’re talking about Americans, like somebody who does not know, hates, envies, or has a goal to discredit Americans as a nation. I don’t have to check your sources. (I checked a few and found them more than suspicious). I do work for low wage people, for all kinds in between, for politicians, and superstars. I see totally different Americans, than you are telling me about. I believe my own eyes and my common sense.
You have an agenda of misrepresenting my reality. In time of war I see your misrepresentation hurts America. In time of war propaganda and misinformation are weapons no less powerful than tanks and choppers. Real propaganda is not directed at fools, it must look credible, at least, at the first glance. Misinformation is directed at the most smart people in command centers. So far, I see you are either caught as a fish yourself on enemy’s hook, or you are intentionally spreading enemy propaganda, trying to assure me with all your links and sources that somewhere there is a different bad breed of Americans, not the one I know. Whatever is your cause, it works for the enemy. That’s why I am pulling my gun and shooting you. You are a fun to fight with in time of peace, but at this moment you must die. Nothing personal. There is too much at stake. Billo, die now - and you may have a chance to get resurrected.

 

[aquapub]

The liberal media have gone out of their way to not publish any images of the cartoons that dare to connect the religion of peace with its terrorist accomplishments. Liberals are protecting Islam from being portrayed as what it is.

And then, they are turning around and eagerly broadcasting images of every Abu Ghirab photo they can get their hands on. There's no reason to show restraint when all the photos are doing is getting American soldiers killed. :roll:

This kind of irresponsibility is what liberals mean when they say they "support" the troops.

A popular media critic made the point recently that perhaps the media has just been too busy drudging up anti-war sentiment, publishing classified documents (like the Pentagon Papers) which gets Americans killed, and giving cover to cover attention to Abu Ghirab to show a cartoon that gets to the point.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by aquapub
The liberal media have gone out of their way to not publish any images of the cartoons that dare to connect the religion of peace with its terrorist accomplishments. Liberals are protecting Islam from being portrayed as what it is.

And then, they are turning around and eagerly broadcasting images of every Abu Ghirab photo they can get their hands on. There's no reason to show restraint when all the photos are doing is getting American soldiers killed.

This kind of irresponsibility is what liberals mean when they say they "support" the troops.

A popular media critic made the point recently that perhaps the media has just been too busy drudging up anti-war sentiment, publishing classified documents (like the Pentagon Papers) which gets Americans killed, and giving cover to cover attention to Abu Ghirab to show a cartoon that gets to the point.

So your saying the media should lie and be more deceitful just so you can go around and torture innocent citizens.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by justone
You live in American, you know Americans. I do too. May be you have to go to the same office everyday, and hate a few people there or you are upset at somebody. I don’t know. I meet and talk to all different people from all ways of life. You’re talking about Americans, like somebody who does not know, hates, envies, or has a goal to discredit Americans as a nation. I don’t have to check your sources. (I checked a few and found them more than suspicious). I do work for low wage people, for all kinds in between, for politicians, and superstars. I see totally different Americans, than you are telling me about. I believe my own eyes and my common sense.
You have an agenda of misrepresenting my reality. In time of war I see your misrepresentation hurts America. In time of war propaganda and misinformation are weapons no less powerful than tanks and choppers. Real propaganda is not directed at fools, it must look credible, at least, at the first glance. Misinformation is directed at the most smart people in command centers. So far, I see you are either caught as a fish yourself on enemy’s hook, or you are intentionally spreading enemy propaganda, trying to assure me with all your links and sources that somewhere there is a different bad breed of Americans, not the one I know. Whatever is your cause, it works for the enemy. That’s why I am pulling my gun and shooting you. You are a fun to fight with in time of peace, but at this moment you must die. Nothing personal. There is too much at stake. Billo, die now - and you may have a chance to get resurrected.

So much for Freedom of Speech.

 

[kal-el]

How can we possibly expect to bring democracy to Iraq? We cannot barge into their backyard and bring western-style democracy to them. For the last 500 years or so, the Muslims have embraced religious fanatasicm (Whabbism), not democracy. I think there's a better chance of one of us getting struck by lightning then for a democratic government to flourish in Iraq.

 

[MSgt]

So your saying the media should lie and be more deceitful just so you can go around and torture innocent citizens.

Actually, what it looks like she meant was that the media should print all of the truth instead of pandering to one side while it goes out of its way to destroy their own. And by restraining themselves from "antagonizing" the true bigots, torturers, and oppressors, they are already being "deceitful."

It's called reading and comprehension.

 

[MSgt]

How can we possibly expect to bring democracy to Iraq? We cannot barge into their backyard and bring western-style democracy to them. For the last 500 years or so, the Muslims have embraced religious fanatasicm (Whabbism), not democracy. I think there's a better chance of one of us getting struck by lightning then for a democratic government to flourish in Iraq.

It was always a long shot. These people have to want to do for themselves. As long as their is a part of this civilization that will not be civilized and will not consider themselves equal to those lowley Kurds and Shi'ites, there will be conflict. In Iraq, they are forced to live together. Maybe a cleansing Civil War is what they need.

No matter what, the Middle East must change. They cannot be left to fester under oppressive regimes, fanatical religious leaders, and dictators anymore. This is something we should have done this a long time ago when it would have been easier. Today, Iran seeks the nuclear bomb. As part of our civilization whines and complains about every and any effort into "what is not our business," our enemies are dedicated and determined to hate us and destroy us. We simply do not have a choice.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
Actually, what it looks like she meant was that the media should print all of the truth instead of pandering to one side while it goes out of its way to destroy their own. And by restraining themselves from "antagonizing" the true bigots, torturers, and oppressors, they are already being "deceitful."

It's called reading and comprehension.

I agree the media should print all the truth. It probably does. On the whole. The truth is in there somewhere.

I disagree about your last statement. Reading and comprehension is our responsibility as readers, not the media's.

 

[goligoth]

It was always a long shot. These people have to want to do for themselves. As long as their is a part of this civilization that will not be civilized and will not consider themselves equal to those lowley Kurds and Shi'ites, there will be conflict. In Iraq, they are forced to live together. Maybe a cleansing Civil War is what they need.

if you take away a persons government and give him another that one is going to get corrupted also because the people don't have time to bother with government when they are too busy worrying about living....

and a civil war is what we are trying to prevent isn't it? if not then why are we still there?

 

[MSgt]

I agree the media should print all the truth. It probably does. On the whole. The truth is in there somewhere.

I disagree about your last statement. Reading and comprehension is our responsibility as readers, not the media's.

My last sentence was directed to your assumptions about "aquapubs" post.

 

[MSgt]

if you take away a persons government and give him another that one is going to get corrupted also because the people don't have time to bother with government when they are too busy worrying about living....

and a civil war is what we are trying to prevent isn't it? if not then why are we still there?

We are trying to prevent it. The ulitmate success would be for all Sunni fighters to lay down their weapons and join with the Kurds and Shi'ites to create a strengthen their nation for their free futures. (It would sure get us out of there faster.) However, if this becomes an impossiblility, then our attempts to prevent a "civil war" may not be the best thing. Our history during the Cold War is ugly. We maintained unstable governments and we propped up dictators for "stability." We must stop rushing to protect or "support" governments that have lived past their expiration dates. A civil war in Iraq may be the natural course. However, the extreme dangers of this is outward Arab and Persian influence.

 

[goligoth]

We are trying to prevent it. The ulitmate success would be for all Sunni fighters to lay down their weapons and join with the Kurds and Shi'ites to create a strengthen their nation for their free futures. (It would sure get us out of there faster.) However, if this becomes an impossiblility, then our attempts to prevent a "civil war" may not be the best thing. Our history during the Cold War is ugly. We maintained unstable governments and we propped up dictators for "stability." We must stop rushing to protect or "support" governments that have lived past their expiration dates. A civil war in Iraq may be the natural course. However, the extreme dangers of this is outward Arab and Persian influence.

if those three groups have been at each others throats for a while I can't imagine that they would be celebrating peace when that peace is obtained through giving up.....peace might be convienient for every other country in the world.....but that doesn't matter...all that matters is pride...

 

[MSgt]

if those three groups have been at each others throats for a while I can't imagine that they would be celebrating peace when that peace is obtained through giving up.....peace might be convienient for every other country in the world.....but that doesn't matter...all that matters is pride...

Well, here lies the problem. The world needs a stable Middle East for oil interests. That's all there is to it. America has long been the protector of these abusive and oppressive governments for that "stability." In a perfect world the Middle Eastern oil reserves would be located in a different region. A region where the people aren't so divided between religious sects and where the civilization isn't clinging onto passed down traditions and superstions above all else and looking to blame anyone else for their own self inflicted wounds.

 

[goligoth]

Well, here lies the problem. The world needs a stable Middle East for oil interests. That's all there is to it. America has long been the protector of these abusive and oppressive governments for that "stability." In a perfect world the Middle Eastern oil reserves would be located in a different region. A region where the people aren't so divided between religious sects and where the civilization isn't clinging onto passed down traditions and superstions above all else and looking to blame anyone else for their own self inflicted wounds.

I think that the rest of the world should invest in hydrogen technology.....let the middle east keep it's oil....

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
My last sentence was directed to your assumptions about "aquapubs" post.

His posts are written in such a way where assumptions are not necessary. His point is quite obvious to anyone reading it.

 

[teacher]

I think that the rest of the world should invest in hydrogen technology.....let the middle east keep it's oil....

There ya go, the answer, bring it home. Damn sure I've had no luck with this rant. Maybe you can get it done. Let the stupid Arabs stand on a street corner trying to barter a bucket of petrol for a worm eaten Apple. It would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? The libs and the cons would rather fight. Electricity changes water into Hydrogen gas and Oxygen. Big yellow ball in the sky will give us all the electricity we need. Burn the Hydrogen gas and get water and heat as a byproduct. Win/win. Even the Greens are happy. Or does that just make too much friggin seance? Terrorists without cash will be relegated to paddling canoes across the ocean into NYC harbor to try to knock down the WTC replacement with thrown rocks in their attempt to live up to Mohamed's commandment to convert the infidels to Islam. (They will never stop doing that, you know.) Then they can paddle their azzes back home and beat their women with sticks for tempting them by looking good. What the fuc*k do we care if another nation keeps half it's population as slaves? Well, I care, but then you libs will just say I'm forcing my beliefs on another sovereign nation. How dare I shout...


Free the Women.

 

[MSgt]

Or does that just make too much friggin seance?

This makes no friggin "sense."

 

[teacher]

This makes no friggin "sense."

Spelling Nazi!

 

[goligoth]

There ya go, the answer, bring it home. Damn sure I've had no luck with this rant. Maybe you can get it done. Let the stupid Arabs stand on a street corner trying to barter a bucket of petrol for a worm eaten Apple. It would solve a lot of problems, wouldn't it? The libs and the cons would rather fight. Electricity changes water into Hydrogen gas and Oxygen. Big yellow ball in the sky will give us all the electricity we need. Burn the Hydrogen gas and get water and heat as a byproduct. Win/win. Even the Greens are happy. Or does that just make too much friggin seance? Terrorists without cash will be relegated to paddling canoes across the ocean into NYC harbor to try to knock down the WTC replacement with thrown rocks in their attempt to live up to Mohamed's commandment to convert the infidels to Islam. (They will never stop doing that, you know.) Then they can paddle their azzes back home and beat their women with sticks for tempting them by looking good. What the fuc*k do we care if another nation keeps half it's population as slaves? Well, I care, but then you libs will just say I'm forcing my beliefs on another sovereign nation. How dare I shout...


Free the Women.

:agree
I have several liberal friends who say that it would be a bad idea to use hydrogen because the middle east would resort back to terrorism.....they don't seem to remember that the middle east has resorted to terrorism while we were buying their oil....and you are right, if we quit buying oil...then they've got no money for plane tickets....and the world is safe again!!! all because of a funny gas...