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american democracy in iraq

cnredd said:
If the USA played a baseball game and won 30-0, the headlines around the world would read,

"Americans walk a batter in the 4th inning."...


And many of our own decrepit left would join the chants. Before they discovered us as a useful tool, we were all bullies or baby killers from an Oliver Stone fantasy to them. And they loved it because it absolved them of all responsibility to serve their country. Now they portray us as helpless victims of American imperialism (although they showed their true colors during the Abu Ghraib affair, when they were delighted to claim that the actions of a handful of renegades exemplified the behavior of our entire military). The "Global Left" is very much made up of some of our own people too and they are the worst of the lot. Those who do not scruple to exploit our soldiers as a political tool—against the wishes and convictions of the troops themselves—and who previously had no time for the sort of “inferior” human being who was “foolish” enough to join our military, deserve a taste of reality, a first-hand introduction to the cruelty of the world beyond our shores. They won’t get it, of course, because our troops are overseas fighting to protect them.
 
Originally posted by GySgt:
War is war. A conscience is for troops after the battle and for people who sit on the bench. Civillians that place themselves as shields for their Radical element make themselves targets. Terrorists that use their family as a means to make the military impotent are responsible for their deaths. What you are so perfectly whining about is nothing. We are being held back from doing what we should. America's best weapon is our raw power. Our greatest hinderance is our refrainment from using it. Instead we continue to try to fight "casualty-free" wars which was a Gulf War legacy and we continue to give our enemies breathing space. There is no quicker way to the end of any war that doesn't involve killing off your enemy. If the enemy hides within their populations, shoot from hospitals, mosques, and ambulances, fake injury or wave a white flag to lure out Marines and Corpsemen from their cover.....they condemn themselves to our reaction.

Stop trolling for the enemy. Perhaps if you jumped in a uniform, you could teach us all how to conduct warfare with the absolute perfection you can't seem to live without.
If Iraq was our enemy, I'd agree with every word. But I believe in the rule of law. I believe in obeying the law. We have a reponsibility (according to International Law) as an occupational force, to take every precaution necessary to ensure the safety of the innocent citizens of the country we are occupying. And we are not. I don't see any effort even being made. In fact, I see just the opposite. If we were on the up and up, and someone said something this slanderous about what we were doing, the best way to prove them wrong, is to allow independant observations from a nuetral party. But we won't let anyone near our theater of conflict unless they play ball with us. If they don't, we either shoot them in the field, or not let them near it at all.

There was no one found in the rubble of that hospital. It was the only one in that region people could go to for help. There were no terrorists inside, yet we bombed it anyway. And the people holding white flags are not terrorists. Some are. But shooting everyone, is not the answer. Why were we picking off people from helicopters trying to swim across the river to get out of Falluja?
 
Originally posted by GySgt:
They won’t get it, of course, because our troops are overseas fighting to protect them
Protect us! From Iraq! You need help. I'm serious. You need counseling. Iraq was not a threat.
 
GySgt said:
War is war.

And Justice is Justice.

a person who has never seen true conflict said:
A conscience is for troops after the battle and for people who sit on the bench.

He states... from the bench.


someone who opposes insurgency albeit while denying the role of those who bear arms said:
Civillians that place themselves as shields for their Radical element make themselves targets.

someone who juxtaposes terrorism with self defense said:
Terrorists that use their family as a means to make the military impotent are responsible for their deaths.

someone who juxtaposes whining with liberty said:
What you are so perfectly whining about is nothing.

someone who has no concept of diplomacy yet only mindless aggression said:
We are being held back from doing what we should. America's best weapon is our raw power.


you get the message. America was never supposed to be a raw power of bloodshed and regression. We fought against these ideals to create our "democracy". One where people wouldn't have to have their blood shed and could lead a content and satisfying life. Only sycophants like our buddy GySgt would have innocent americans waging a nonsensical war agains't a schizophrenic tendency to benefit the will of his bank account.

blah blah blah

dingleberry supreme said:
Stop trolling for the enemy. Perhaps if you jumped in a uniform, you could teach us all how to conduct warfare with the absolute perfection you can't seem to live without.

Sounds like you're doing a good job at denigrating those who you claim to be fighting for... even more so.. you are doing nothing for those who are fighting for My country either. You think your b/s really compells anyone? You aren't here to be just or ethical. You're the worst kind of apologist that exists. You are only here to create the perception that those in the armed services support such ridiculous wars and are brain-dead.

None of my men have been as brain dead as you are but I'm sure you wish that they had been.
 
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Billo said, "We murder too. And with our high-tech weapons, were a lot better at it. I guarantee you we killed more of them than they did to us. It takes a lot of hate to saw someones head off. Do you ever wonder what the driving forces are to make someone that psycho? We seem to keep forgeting that we invaded them. They didn't do anything to us, yet we attacked anyway. No one is condoning those skumbag's that chop off heads. What they did is horrible. And they should be brought to justice for their crimes. But justice doesn't work unless it is across the board. And were going around in Iraq with total impunity."

See there ya go.........defending them.

Makes me sick the Americans who defend terrorism and who bash their own country like you do. Makes me sick. You are condoning what they did you said it yourself. They are justified in your eyes. You say theirs is a crime but I highly doubt you really mean it. You only see America at fault. Americas crimes are all you see.
All the people Sadam murdered and sent through the shredding machines do not matter to you. Sadam should not have been stopped in your eyes and the fact that we captured this monster doesn't delight you it makes you angry. Angry because we had no right to do it. He should be a free man right now.. to you. So much for helping a people who can't help themselves who are ruled by a dictator. So what we couldn't find WMD, we did something better ...we got a monster and shut down his shredders....we freed a people who lived in terror.

So let me ask you this question.........Are you are for allowing Iran to develop nuclear weapons? Yes, No?

Conflict said," America was never supposed to be a raw power of bloodshed and regression. We fought against these ideals to create our "democracy". One where people wouldn't have to have their blood shed and could lead a content and satisfying life."

And do we fight to keep them? Do we fight to protect ourselves and others who are weaker than we are? Should we have taken Hitler out? Did he ever step one foot on America or attack us physically? Should we have let millions die by his hands?
We would not today be able to live and lead content and satisying lives in America had it not been for our MILITARY AND THE BRAVE MEN AND WOMAN WHO DIED TO PRESERVE AND PROTECT IT.


I'll ask you the same thing I asked Billo.....

Do you think we have any right to stop Iran from making the nuclear bomb, WBD?

Gysgt said, "War is war. A conscience is for troops after the battle and for people who sit on the bench. Civillians that place themselves as shields for their Radical element make themselves targets. Terrorists that use their family as a means to make the military impotent are responsible for their deaths. What you are so perfectly whining about is nothing. We are being held back from doing what we should. America's best weapon is our raw power. Our greatest hinderance is our refrainment from using it. Instead we continue to try to fight "casualty-free" wars which was a Gulf War legacy and we continue to give our enemies breathing space."

You are so so right.
 
Billo_Really said:
Protect us! From Iraq! You need help. I'm serious. You need counseling. Iraq was not a threat.

The threat is the civilization. It is not merely one country. The threat is not a government. It is a culture of zealots that see skyjacking an airplane and crashing it as righteous. It is a civilization that has been so oppressed by their elite that they have withdrawn so deep into an already brutal religion and seek all manner of infidels to blame for their own failures.

Too high over your head? Simpletons merely focus on little old Iraq.
 
Conflict said:
And Justice is Justice.

A sentiment not always afforded during the heat of battle but always a sentiment of the critical from safe positions.


Conflict said:
He states... from the bench.

Einstein.....I'm an Active Duty Marine on a break in a HQ unit from having spent two tours in Iraq with a Regiment. Last year I had to make a trip to North Africa for a brief trip. Before that I spent time in Haiti, Cuba, and Somalia. You just can't keep your foot out of your mouth can you? I guess this is where you try to teach me about the military and embarrass yourself again?


Conflict said:
you get the message. America was never supposed to be a raw power of bloodshed and regression. We fought against these ideals to create our "democracy". One where people wouldn't have to have their blood shed and could lead a content and satisfying life. Only sycophants like our buddy GySgt would have innocent americans waging a nonsensical war agains't a schizophrenic tendency to benefit the will of his bank account.

blah blah blah

You're shedding your blood?

You're very fond of bringing up what our country used to be and what it was never supposed to be with complete ignorance. Maybe one day you will pull your head out of the clouds and join us today. Let me school you, son. Try to follow along....

America will never turn back the clock to the days before the Spanish American War. Without the instability of the declining 18th century, as the old European order decayed, we would not have gained the French assistance decisive to our struggle for independence. Without the instability of the 20th century, protectionist imperial regimes might have lingered on to stymie our economic expansion. And without the turbulence that seeks to rebalance the world today, much of humanity would continue to rot under the corrupt, oppressive regimes that are falling everywhere, from the Balkans to Southeast Asia. A free world subject to popular decision is impossible without the dismantling of the obsolete governments we rush to defend. In one of history's bitterest ironies, the United States finally became, in the 1990s, the reactionary power leftists painted us during the Cold War.

It all began to go wrong when we found ourselves with an accidental empire. Future historians, with the clarity allowed by centuries, may judge the Spanish-American War to have been America's decisive conflict, a quick fight that changed our nation's destiny and practice fundamentally. Brief, nearly bloodless, and wildly victorious, that war's importance has always been underestimated. Unlike almost all of America's other wars, it was a war that need not have been. Because it did happen, we turned outward, abandoning the convent for the streets, and could not go back. With that war, we became an imperial power, if a benign one, thus denying our heritage as the key anti-imperial power in history.

Domestically, the nation we have today is the result of our Civil War. Internationally, our fate was shaped by the Spanish-American War--more than by any of the wars that followed, despite their greater scope and striking results. Occurring at the peak of unbridled domestic capitalism, the Spanish-American War made of us an extractive power, in which the earnings of fruit companies became more important than support for freedom and democracy. Our bayonets served business, not ideals. This pattern of valuing profit above our pride--or even elementary human decency--holds true in our present relationships with states as diverse as Saudi Arabia and China (during the captivity of a US military aircrew in the spring of 2001, some American businessmen went to Capitol Hill to make China's case, rather than rallying to support our service members; our diplomatic blank check written to Saudi Arabia on behalf of our oil interests has allowed behind-the-scenes Saudi support for terrorists, while Saudi intelligence services stonewall us and Saudi citizens commit unprecedented acts of violence against the United States).

Did you learn something here son? Criticizing reality and the actions of those that have to deal with it in your absence is not constructive in any sense. It's ignorance. It could even be cowardice. Only you would know that about you.


Conflict said:
Sounds like you're doing a good job at denigrating those who you claim to be fighting for... even more so.. you are doing nothing for those who are fighting for My country either. You think your b/s really compells anyone? You aren't here to be just or ethical. You're the worst kind of apologist that exists. You are only here to create the perception that those in the armed services support such ridiculous wars and are brain-dead.

None of my men have been as brain dead as you are but I'm sure you wish that they had been.

I fight and deploy for all ungreatful traitors in my country. An apologist, son, is an individual that will "apologize" for imagined transgressions against an enemy. If you are going to talk with the adults, at least pretend to be able to follow along with the terminology. I fight the enemy. You would be the apologist. It is a foolish thing to deny that you aren't in a war of attrition while your enemy kills you. Our enemy is a diseased culture and the citizens of this culture have no loyalties to country. Their loyalties are to "God" and tribe and they live in Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and "Palestine."

"Your men?" You have proven to not have a single clue into the military. And now you speak of "your men?" You don't have to lie to speak with the adults.

And when trying to accuse an individual of being "brain dead," perhaps you should at least be able to intellectually keep up with that individual - as yet you have been able to prove you can do.
 
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Billo_Really said:
If Iraq was our enemy, I'd agree with every word. But I believe in the rule of law. I believe in obeying the law. We have a reponsibility (according to International Law) as an occupational force, to take every precaution necessary to ensure the safety of the innocent citizens of the country we are occupying. And we are not. I don't see any effort even being made. In fact, I see just the opposite. If we were on the up and up, and someone said something this slanderous about what we were doing, the best way to prove them wrong, is to allow independant observations from a nuetral party. But we won't let anyone near our theater of conflict unless they play ball with us. If they don't, we either shoot them in the field, or not let them near it at all.

You don't even know who or what the enemy is. To you, it's just an old man hiding out in the Afgani/Pakistani mountains. You don't have a clue what is going on inside Iraq. All you have are news stories that desperately search high and low for anything that will sell people like you a newspaper. The truth is that you are not interested in anything that does not cast a shadow. How much do you know about Chad, Phillipines, Indonesia, Bosnia, Pakistan, India, Sudan, or Ethiopia? Probably nothing. When something bad happens and a reporter catches it, I'm sure then you will be all over it.


Billo_Really said:
There was no one found in the rubble of that hospital. It was the only one in that region people could go to for help. There were no terrorists inside, yet we bombed it anyway. And the people holding white flags are not terrorists. Some are. But shooting everyone, is not the answer. Why were we picking off people from helicopters trying to swim across the river to get out of Falluja?

Truly pathetic.

1) A "building" used as a headquarters for an enemy is a military target that must come down. Period. Your claims that no one was inside the rubble is of no consequence. It is a location where the enemy cannot regroup. It's called simple tactics.

2) People that hold white flags for the expressed intention to deceive Marines into a false security as their buddies rise up from behind cover to kill that Marine is an enemy. Perhaps if their own people who used this tactic in the past had been "honorable" Marines would have no reason not to trust the sincerity of a white flag. The same with faking injury. "Shooting everyone" is yet another celebrated lie or exxageration from anti-war cowards and loser pacifist who will destroy anything to achieve an unreachable goal.

3) The enemy can also swim. Fallujah was about cleaning out the cockroaches. As the pathetic wails and whines of our politicians to do everything possible to cast an "evil" light on Gitmo proved, it is better to kill terrorist on the spot rather than imprison them as tools for every pacifist or politician on a stage.

If you don't like what war is...tune out. Watch your "American Idol" and leave the men to do their job.
 
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Billo_Really said:
We murder too.


The link here

QUOTE]
Here is Billo's link writer:

Dahr Jamail is an independent freelance journalist from Anchorage who writes for Inter Press Service, Islam Online, and is a special correspondent for Flashpoint's Pacifica Radio, and, of course, The Ester Republic.

Self-definition of ReE:
The Republic of Ester is an independent state of mind, characterized by freedom of speech and a willingness to spout off, a lot of art, a lot of mine tailings, piles of recycled stuff, and a love of rousing discussions about politics, science, and bad jokes down at the pub of a Thursday evening.

Billo, you want me to read Islam Online in my morning coffee time?
Wall Street Juornal, Wall Street Juornal, and just the 1st page, my friend, if I have a minute.
 
Originally posted by justone:
Here is Billo's link writer:

Dahr Jamail is an independent freelance journalist from Anchorage who writes for Inter Press Service, Islam Online, and is a special correspondent for Flashpoint's Pacifica Radio, and, of course, The Ester Republic.

Self-definition of ReE:
The Republic of Ester is an independent state of mind, characterized by freedom of speech and a willingness to spout off, a lot of art, a lot of mine tailings, piles of recycled stuff, and a love of rousing discussions about politics, science, and bad jokes down at the pub of a Thursday evening.

Billo, you want me to read Islam Online in my morning coffee time?
Wall Street Juornal, Wall Street Juornal, and just the 1st page, my friend, if I have a minute.
Do you have anything valid to say? Or do you just want to sit back and do ad hominum attacks? If you want to know what's going on in Iraq, you ask an Iraqi. The Wall Street Journal is good, but it is not more informed than people who actually are living in the area of conflict.

By the way, I don't really care what you read. Judging from your responses, it's probably Cat in the Hat.
 
Billo_Really said:
The Wall Street Journal is good, but it is not more informed than people who actually are living in the area of conflict.

SySgt is one of them. He and I speak the same language.

Your junky Islamic propaganda writer is another one. You and him speak the same language.


Billo_Really said:
Do you have anything valid to say?

That was my way to represent and close my case in front of the jury. And I can repeat: Wall Street Journal, Wall Street Journal, my friend, for me, or Cat in the Hat for my little one.
Islam on line is for you and your source along with a few bullets to catch. Nothing personal, I just I want to continue with my Cat in the Hat in peace, like before 9/11.
 
Originally posted by justone:
SySgt is one of them. He and I speak the same language.

Your junky Islamic propaganda writer is another one. You and him speak the same language.
Why don't you provide evidence that your objection has merit. And what's with this "my ...propaganda writer?" Stop playing make believe and live in the real world.

Originally posted by justone:
That was my way to represent and close my case in front of the jury. And I can repeat: Wall Street Journal, Wall Street Journal, my friend, for me, or Cat in the Hat for my little one.
Islam on line is for you and your source along with a few bullets to catch. Nothing personal, I just I want to continue with my Cat in the Hat in peace, like before 9/11.
So you believe in shooting people because they have a different opinion than yours that exercise their freedom of speech rights. Your views are more in concert with the Nazi's of Germany than in America. You don't seem to have a clue as to what America is all about. And you certainly have no idea what "peace" means by saying I need to "catch a few bullets". Is that how you get your peace? By dishing out bullets. And why bring up 9/11? We were talking about Iraq. Try to stay on topic.

Here's another link you can trash. I guess your against these people too. They wear the same uniform Gunny does.

http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=201
 
Billo_Really said:
Here's another link you can trash. I guess your against these people too. They wear the same uniform Gunny does.

http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=201


Not all in uniform have done the study and not all in uniform are proffessionals. Some are just earning a paycheck and enjoying a free ride untill called up for duty. Some have finally been exposed to the hardship of the military in a war zone and realize that they should have never worn the uniform in the first place. Others merely have different opinions.

"Jim Massey" is slave to political masters and an embarrassment to the Corps. He has a history and he is a proven liar. The details of his story changed repeatedly. None of the reporters that were present saw or heard anything of what he claimed and niether did any of his fellow Marines. He cracked under pressure and his lies are his ways of exonerating that weakness. He was discharged in December 2003, shortly after returning from Iraq due to depression and post-traumatic stress syndrome....

"News organizations worldwide published or broadcast Massey's claims without any corroboration and in most cases without investigation. Outside of the Marines, almost no one has seriously questioned whether Massey, a 12-year veteran who was honorably discharged, was telling the truth.

He wasn't.

Each of his claims is either demonstrably false or exaggerated - according to his fellow Marines, Massey's own admissions, and the five journalists who were embedded with Massey's unit, including a reporter and photographer from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch and reporters from the Associated Press and the Wall Street Journal.
"


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1516702/posts

What makes him weak? There is no way he has done or seen the things I have and I have never "cracked." Besides that, none of his fellow Marines have cracked either. He was merely exposed to combat and he couldn't handle it. He had spent 12 years in the Marine Corps training for what other Marines were doing. When it was his turn, he fell and he was left to face his family with that revelation. He explained his weakness away by lieing about events in Iraq. (Strange how no one else in his unit knew what he was talking about.)

I've warned you about using massey and his kind before. The fact that you continue to use him is proof that you are desperate to do anything and use anything. This is why protesters always look foolish. Try to stop being such a fanatic member of the hard left.
 
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Originally posted by GySgt:
I've warned you about using massey and his kind before. The fact that you continue to use him is proof that you are desperate to do anything and use anything. This is why protesters always look foolish. Try to stop being such a fanatic member of the hard left.
I'll stop when you stop being such a fanatic member of the hard right rubber-stamping every god-damn thing this Adminstration does. I bet you would have defended the actions of Lieutenant Calley in Vietnam.
 
Billo_Really said:
I'll stop when you stop being such a fanatic member of the hard right rubber-stamping every god-damn thing this Adminstration does.

On the contrary, this administration has made mistakes and so have the field commanders. Just not the ones you keep complaining about and my complaints are more in detail. As are my complaints about our government for the last fifty some years.

Billo_Really said:
I bet you would have defended the actions of Lieutenant Calley in Vietnam.

The acts and Court Martial of Lt. William Calley at My Lai are well known to military personnel (at least in the Marine Corps). It is taught to us as a reminder. In fact, it is a subject in the Professional Staff Non-Commissioned Officer Academies and the Officer Candidate School. It is common for Marine leaders and Army leaders to tell their troops before embarking into a foreign nation (Gulf War, Somalia, Bosnia, Haiti, etc.), "Remember My Lai."

No one in the military defends the massacre. I might add also that you should note, once, again, what branch of service this controversey came from. It's a broken record isn't it? Have you started to see the differences and the patterns?







Why do you insist on tripping over yourself with me all of the time?
 
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Billo_Really said:
Why don't you provide evidence that your objection has merit. And what's with this "my ...propaganda writer?" Stop playing make believe and live in the real world.

So you believe in shooting people because they have a different opinion than yours that exercise their freedom of speech rights. Your views are more in concert with the Nazi's of Germany than in America. You don't seem to have a clue as to what America is all about. And you certainly have no idea what "peace" means by saying I need to "catch a few bullets". Is that how you get your peace? By dishing out bullets. And why bring up 9/11? We were talking about Iraq. Try to stay on topic.

Billo_Really said:
Here's another link you can trash.

http://www.ivaw.net/index.php?id=201

I guess USMC doesn't have a problem trashing you links. My problem is i do not have to study all enemy prapaganda, as you do fighting on the enemy side, and as SySgt does studying tactics of the enemy.

Billo_Really said:
Is that how you get your peace? By dishing out bullets.

I am making an effort to negotiate peace with my enemy. My first step is to try, at least, to use the language the enemy speaks and understands – the language of bullets and explosives. If I insist on speaking my language, it would only show that I have no respect for another side in the negotiation.

An example of negotiation in ME. Some time ago a Hamas type sheikh took 5 Soviet engineers as hostages. His demand was for the Soviets to support him in the way he liked or he would start killing the hostages. The Soveits had their own plans, and generally didn’t like anybody to tell them what to do – they never had a respect for the freedom of speech, but a huge experience of dealing with Nazis. Their intelligence pointed out 6 older civilian men connected to the sheikh. Military KGB took them for negotiation, and sent one of them to the sheikh with a message in a box. The sheikh opened the box, and read the letter, saying that he really made the Soviets to change their plans and start a new plan. In the box there were the head and genitals of one of the olderman, others were planned to be delivered to sheikh each hour, after that the Soviet air force was planned to start bombing around. The sheikh understood the language in a minute.
In one minute all killings, hostages, bombings of innocent civilians stopped, piece and friendship continued. The cost was just one happy guy going to heaven to start popping 70 virgins. Or may be he couldn’t without genitals – it is your expertise, you the one to read Islam prophets.
It may be an extreme variant, but I am really tired of those which don’t work. I am tired of killing, bombings, cutting throats of hostages, of thousands dead with no reason. There should be some better ways to negotiate with some respect to another side.


Billo_Really said:
So you believe in shooting people because they have a different opinion than yours that exercise their freedom of speech rights.

I am in the fight for freedom of speech, as well for other freedoms. I cannot wait for you to die so I can start talking to SyGt, and using all the freedom of expression to tell him that he is an idiot and to expect him to tell the same about me.

This is my free speech: I hope I made you outraged. Catch another bullet and die.
 
Here is a little bit of what most Americans aren't aware of......

On Monday, parts of Naval Station Norfolk looked like an Iraqi village. The 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, or MEU, are undergoing a two-week training session. Iraqi Americans are helping train the marines.

"We are Iraqi Americans. This is my opportunity to prove we are good citizen," said Behan "Ben" Al-Khazeriji.

Ben and other Iraqi Americans go all around the country creating mock situations for marines. It's helping marines tackle the language barrier so they are better prepared when they go to Iraq.

"It was pretty hard because I don't know much about Arabic language or whatever," said PFC Alexander Goff. "I really didn't know what they were saying to be honest with you."

Ben said this is a win-win situation. And it's his way of thanking the marines.

"Whatever they can learn from us can help them save their lives in Iraq," said Ben. "And at the same time save Iraqi lives."



http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=4558760
 
Originally posted by justone
I am making an effort to negotiate peace with my enemy.
Then why are you talking to me?
 
Originally posted by justone
I am in the fight for freedom of speech, as well for other freedoms. I cannot wait for you to die so I can start talking to SyGt, and using all the freedom of expression to tell him that he is an idiot and to expect him to tell the same about me.

This is my free speech: I hope I made you outraged. Catch another bullet and die.
Try again, maybe your luck will change.
 
aren't we spreading american democracy the same way that russia once spread communism?
 
goligoth said:
aren't we spreading american democracy the same way that russia once spread communism?


No. Any democracy in the Middle East that we might see will not reflect "American" democracy.


It is an inherent "want" for people to be free. It is not an inherent "want" to be oppressed.
 
goligoth said:
aren't we spreading american democracy the same way that russia once spread communism?

We are spreading American democracy just as the protestants spread Christianity to the native Americans. It's just how America works. Make them do it our way or kill them in the process.

American's seem to have the idea that our way will work for anyone and anyone that does not think the same is a terrorist or communist.
 
GySgt said:
No. Any democracy in the Middle East that we might see will not reflect "American" democracy.

It is an inherent "want" for people to be free. It is not an inherent "want" to be oppressed.

The Middle east has been at war within itself for over 1500 years. Why would you think all of a sudden there can be peace because America says so?
 
Interesting article in today's WSJ by Harry Jaffa, professor emeritus of government at Claremont McKenna College and the Claremont Graduate School of the Claremont Institute. A couple of relevant points...

"Legitimate political authority--the right of one human being to require obedience of another human being--arises only from consent. The fundamental act of consent is, as the 1780 Massachusetts Bill of Rights states, "a social compact by which the whole people covenants with each citizen and each citizen with the whole people that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good." The "certain laws for the common good" have no other purpose but to preserve and protect the rights that each citizen possesses prior to government, rights with which he or she has been "endowed by their Creator." The rights that governments exist to secure are not the gift of government. They originate in God.

The great difficulty in forming legitimate governments is in persuading those forming the governments that those who are to be their fellow citizens are equal to them in the rights, which their common government is to protect. Catholics and Protestants in 16th-century Europe looked upon each other as less than human, and slaughtered each other without pity and without compunction. It was impossible for there to be a common citizenship of those who did not look upon each other as possessing the same right of conscience. How one ought to worship God cannot be settled by majority rule. A majority of one faith cannot ask a minority of another faith to submit their differences to a vote.
[...]
The United States is engaged today in a great mission to spread democracy to the Middle East, beginning with Afghanistan, and continuing with Iraq. The inhabitants of Iraq are divided into many groups and factions that hate and distrust each other. The attitude of Sunni and Shia Muslims toward each other resembles that of Catholic and Protestant Christians in the 16th century (which persist today in northern Ireland), each regarding the other as heretics. Under the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, the minority of Sunnis persecuted the majority Shias. It is understandable that the minority Sunnis are today resisting majority rule, while the majority Shia favor it. The Sunnis clearly believe that majority rule by Shia will be used as a means of retribution and revenge. The Sunnis look upon majority rule by the Shia the way the South looked upon the election of Lincoln in 1860. It is inconceivable to the Sunnis that the rule of the Shia majority will be anything other than tyranny. Indeed, it is inconceivable to them that any political power, whether of a minority or a majority, would be non-tyrannical. The idea of non-tyrannical government is alien to their history and their experience. They regard our assertions of Jeffersonian or Lincolnian principles as mere hypocrisy, as they see no other form of rule other than that of force. Our government assumes that the people of the Middle East, like people elsewhere, seek freedom for others no less than for themselves. But that is an assumption that has not yet been confirmed by experience.
[...]
According to many of our political and intellectual elites, both liberal and conservative, the minority in a democracy enjoys only such rights as the majority chooses to bestow upon them. The Bill of Rights in the American Constitution--and similar bills in state constitutions--are regarded as gifts from the majority to the minority. But the American Constitution, and the state constitutions subordinate to it have, at one time or another, sanctioned both slavery and Jim Crow, by which the bills of rights applied to white Americans were denied to black Americans. But according to the elites, it is not undemocratic for the minority to lose. From this perspective, both slavery and Jim Crow were exercises of democratic majority rule. This is precisely the view of democracy by the Sunnis in Iraq, and is the reason they are fighting the United States." [emphasis added]


Source.
 
Gibberish said:
We are spreading American democracy just as the protestants spread Christianity to the native Americans. It's just how America works. Make them do it our way or kill them in the process.

American's seem to have the idea that our way will work for anyone and anyone that does not think the same is a terrorist or communist.


Gibberish.
 
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