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american democracy in iraq

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hysem said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,,1710396,00.html

February 15 2006: Previously unpublished images showing apparent abuse of detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in 2003 as broadcast by Australian television station SBS.

This is what happens when the Army National Guard Reserve is given some responsibility outside of filling sand bags.

Stop whining about something that happened almost three years ago.
 

cnredd

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hysem said:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/gall/0,,1710396,00.html

February 15 2006: Previously unpublished images showing apparent abuse of detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison in 2003 as broadcast by Australian television station SBS.
How does showing more pictures of something that is already known doing anything other than re-inflaming perceptions?...

If they were new pictures of something going on that wasn't reported previously, I could understand...

But this was something that HAS been reported...New pictures do not change old conclusions...

And the people involved have already been indicted, prosecuted, and convicted...and are currently paying the price for their actions...

Why the reminder other than to say, "Don't forget your supposed to hate the whole military for the actions of a few"?...:roll:
 

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Is this, yet, another fake Muslim. (Meaning another current member merely pretending just to start something?)
 

cnredd

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GySgt said:
Is this, yet, another fake Muslim. (Meaning another current member merely pretending just to start something?)
Or the DNC...

Sometimes I think they're the same thing...:shrug:
 

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Explain to me how you inflame perceptions by depicting the truth. Also explain to me why you so easily dismiss our actions in this matter; the only sorts of people that would lightly dismiss the events at Abu Ghraib would be children and sociopaths.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
Explain to me how you inflame perceptions by depicting the truth. Also explain to me why you so easily dismiss our actions in this matter; the only sorts of people that would lightly dismiss the events at Abu Ghraib would be children and sociopaths.
Simple...

Because the actions are PAST TENSE...

This isn't recent...These are pictures that are 2+years old, and the issue has been discussed and prosecuted...

No one is lightly dismissing it...No one condones what happened...But keep in mind that the important word is "happened", not "happens"...

AND I'd point out that you said, "OUR ACTIONS"...This is false...They were the actions of very few individuals...To make that representative of all is disingenuous and very misleading...

I guess the next time a black guy shoots a white guy, you'll assume that he was just representing the whole African American community...Why don't you start a thraed on that?...:roll:

According to this stupid logic, we should show more pictures of the Pearl Harbor attack to remind the Japanese of their actions...

What's the point?...
 

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They have always exploited our suffering
By Jamal Mudhafar Azzaman, February 11, 2006


We remember the suffering Iraqis underwent due to U.N. trade sanctions which lasted from 1990 to shortly after the 2003 U.S.-led invasion.

The victims of the embargo were millions of ordinary Iraqis who were denied food and medicine and basic amenities.

The people of Iraq were the victims who paid dearly for the U.N.-imposed and U.S.-enforced sanctions.

The former leader Saddam Hussein, his cronies and aides did not suffer at all. The world knew this. The U.S. knew this. But still they persisted in keeping them in place.

Can you imagine how many Iraqis died because of these sanctions? The U.N. Children’s Fund – UNESCO – estimates that at least 500,000 Iraqi children below the age of five must have perished for reasons related to U.N. sanctions.

Instead of applying pressure on Saddam Hussein and his regime, the world turned against the Iraqi people. We went hungry because of those policies while Saddam and his men were living in luxury.

They wanted impoverished Iraqi children and their emaciated parents to exert pressure on Saddam Hussein to force him to listen to the so-called ‘international community.’

They knew that was impossible to happen. But still they felt – and that is the tragedy – morally justified to keep the sanctions in place despite U.N. cries that only innocent children, women and elderly were the victims.

In all those years – 13 in all – the world tightened the noose on us and so did the regime. We were squeezed between the world’s hammer and Saddam Hussein’s anvil.

The pressure worn us out and made us powerless. It denied our children milk formula and basic antibiotics.

And when Saddam was removed we thought those days were gone and a better future was in the offing.

As we entered the era of ‘great democracy’ we confronted the same faces which previously used to beam at our suffering.

The same faces, which imposed the sanctions and persevered to have them in place for so many years, are now besieging us.

They live in palaces, some of them built by Saddam Hussein. They are protected by trigger-happy guards and armored vehicles.

And ordinary and innocent Iraqis are still suffering. Prices, even of essential needs like fuel, are beyond reach for the majority of Iraqis. Unemployment is rampant.

The government is apparently turning a deaf ear to our suffering and is determined to press ahead with the same policies which have taken the country to the brink of catastrophe.


http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=opinion\2006-02-11\187.htm
What's wrong with these people? Here in America, we voted for Bush and got the government we wanted. Why can't they do the same? I mean, it's not like it's all our fault for their problems. And it doesn't matter how our oil, got under their sand. It only matters that we are not them.

God bless America!
(Or we'll bomb HIM too)
 

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This isn't recent...These are pictures that are 2+years old, and the issue has been discussed and prosecuted...
Not the same as saying it was discussed and prosecuted adequately.

No one is lightly dismissing it...No one condones what happened...But keep in mind that the important word is "happened", not "happens"...
In the same way, then, 9/11 happened (not happens), and we should just forget about it, eh?

AND I'd point out that you said, "OUR ACTIONS"...This is false...They were the actions of very few individuals...To make that representative of all is disingenuous and very misleading...
What a load! See:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989422/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...04.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/04/ixnewstop.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/wolfowitz_visited_abu_ghraib.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35612-2004Jun11.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3694521.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_post-Saddam_Iraq

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5092776/site/newsweek/

We are responsible for every single act of evil committed in Iraq by our soldiers.

I guess the next time a black guy shoots a white guy, you'll assume that he was just representing the whole African American community...Why don't you start a thraed on that?...
Not remotely the same thing. If there were some kind of African American organization that dealt with shooting white guys that all African Americans belonged to, and they condoned shooting this or that white guy in particular, then that's what I'd assume.

According to this stupid logic, we should show more pictures of the Pearl Harbor attack to remind the Japanese of their actions...
And according to your stupid...erm...I can't call it logic, we ought to have forgotten about Pearl Harbor in a few months, it having been in the past.

What's the point?...
The point is that man's inhumanity to man knows no apparent bounds. Until we realize the full measure of our own culpability in arranging world affairs, nothing is going to get better.
 

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ashurbanipal said:
Explain to me how you inflame perceptions by depicting the truth. Also explain to me why you so easily dismiss our actions in this matter; the only sorts of people that would lightly dismiss the events at Abu Ghraib would be children and sociopaths.

What's dismissed? The American Government conducted Court Martials, conducted NJP's (Non judicial Punishments), and relieved individuals of command and duties. All of which are career enders. Punishment were handed out.

Have all of the "criminals" of the Muslims world that executed 9/11 been brought to justice? How about all of the "criminals" of past attrocities in the name of "Allah?" How about all of the terror organizations that continue to thrive under protected Muslim governments?

There is your difference.

The only way this could equate to us "not forgetting 9/11" is that these terror organizations continue to exist and continue to terrorize public populations - whether they be American, English, Spanish, Indonesian, Jordanian populations. This is much bigger than 9/11. The Radical element of this civilization even kills and murders their own. Facing it it head on has caused greater conflict. But not facing it is unacceptable anymore. The acts of Indonesia, Spain, London, 9/11, and Jordan are mere minor disturbances compared to what the future of this problem could be if we continued to ignore the problem.
 
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ashurbanipal said:
Not the same as saying it was discussed and prosecuted adequately.

We are responsible for every single act of evil committed in Iraq by our soldiers.
.
Frankly, I’m still missing the point, as I was missing it 2 years ago. I see, how people react, but I just cannot get it, yet.

Who are those, who protest against the pictures – some kind of new born Christians, who are sayings it’s against teaching of Jesus? Or maybe some people, who still want to talk about some kind of moral or family values? Some kind of American values in their understanding? Some kind of a need to keep “In God We Trust on money bills”? Who are those, who upset? What for are they making all the buzz about?

Big deal, - a few men’s butts. Like we did not agree to celebrate sexual perversion, I mean, diversity. There should be some freedom of speech. If I flip through basic cable channels and see a doctor, graphically explaining to a new born gay, how to relax his anus for penetration, I don’t have to watch. I understand, that teaching such things on TV and in the schools, they are just saving a few good butts from extra pain. (Well, maybe, it turned a little bit more painful for an Iraqi or two, but I guess it’s unavoidable.)
I just flip to another channel and enjoy all sexy skin reveling women, shaking their butts and discussing multiple partners. Isn’t our goal to liberate Iraqis women?
What is wrong with our guys teaching Iraqis the same lessons of democracy as they had been always thought at home. Aren’t we there to teach Iraqis democracy? I don’t understand, how Muslim’s feelings can be hurt? It’s like saying, that Christian feelings may be hurt by gay and lesbian parades or by gay marriage. So, is it like Muslims have more feelings than Christians? Nobody would take such statements seriously. I don’t see how we can bring our democracy and freedom of speech and artistic expression to Iraqis, if we follow these Christian complains, and punish the guys, who are just trying to pass our culture to Iraqis. I don’t even see too much of collateral damage here, - it’s not like a bomb on a village.
Ye, may be, if they did something like this here, they would get arrested , but - would I hear a 2 years long buzz about it? They also shoot and kill there and generally don’t get arrested. There should be some kind of difference.
I cannot get yet, how that girl and her baby were sentenced for years in prison; but that mature woman, her general did not even resign, - like there is no responsibilities of a general for lives and wellbeing of his – I have to say - or her – soldiers. There is no such things as decency or military honor even for a general; - so, what for all this buzz?

Of course, whatever is going, it is always good to impeach the President, but how would it change the picture in the mirror?
 

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IMO American or European style democracy won't happen in our lifetime anywhere in the ME with the possible acception of Iran. To attain any form of democracy in the region it will have to be tailored to fit those nations. And not just because of the religion but a whole host of other social problems. These areas are still not really nations as we think of a nation but they are still more tribal than not. See TE Lawrence. Even Israel has only a "limited" democracy and that only because of the large influx of Europeans and Americans as immigrants.
 

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Inuyasha said:
IMO American or European style democracy won't happen in our lifetime anywhere in the ME with the possible acception of Iran. To attain any form of democracy in the region it will have to be tailored to fit those nations. And not just because of the religion but a whole host of other social problems. These areas are still not really nations as we think of a nation but they are still more tribal than not. See TE Lawrence. Even Israel has only a "limited" democracy and that only because of the large influx of Europeans and Americans as immigrants.
Very good. There is far more hope for Iran than Iraq (sad to say that). The problems of this civilization will go beyond our lifetimes. With Iraq, we have ousted a brutal dictator and a threat (future or present) to American civillians and Israeli civillians. We are forcing them to achieve something that is near an impossibility and something that they may not be prepared for. Our only hope and break through is, if Iraqis do manage to succeed and show the entire Middle East that people of different sects can co-exist under one government as equals just like the rest of the world currently does, it will spread. Are securities are worth the gamble.

By the way...I liked your reference to Thomas Lawrence. There's a lot of good reading there.
 

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GySgt said:
Very good. There is far more hope for Iran than Iraq (sad to say that). The problems of this civilization will go beyond our lifetimes. With Iraq, we have ousted a brutal dictator and a threat (future or present) to American civillians and Israeli civillians. We are forcing them to achieve something that is near an impossibility and something that they may not be prepared for. Our only hope and break through is, if Iraqis do manage to succeed and show the entire Middle East that people of different sects can co-exist under one government as equals just like the rest of the world currently does, it will spread. Are securities are worth the gamble.

By the way...I liked your reference to Thomas Lawrence. There's a lot of good reading there.
I agree with your post 100%. However IMO if a "reasonable" democracy (by our standards) cannot be acieved in Iraq I think I would rather see that area fragmented as it was before the British created Iraq than to see it as a theocracy in its present makeup..
 

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Inuyasha said:
I agree with your post 100%. However IMO if a "reasonable" democracy (by our standards) cannot be acieved in Iraq I think I would rather see that area fragmented as it was before the British created Iraq than to see it as a theocracy in its present makeup..

It may very well turn out that way. For the Middle East to get beyond their simple bigotries and hatreds they have to recognize equality among the sects. Iraq will prove a lot to the world about what we face throughout the Islamic world. But it should be noted that no matter what kind of "democracy" we see in the Middle East, it will not be what we want to see exactly. We have to accept that this as at least a step away from the types of governments and societies that have bred terrorism.

When all is said and done....we are, in fact, hoping against hope. The future is bloody. Avoiding it should be our goal whether it is their goal or not.
 

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I wonder why they don't publish more photos of Saddam's henchmen cutting off hands, throwing people off buildings, cutting off tounges, feeding people into woodchippers or maybe more of the bodies of the people he gassed.
 

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Stinger said:
I wonder why they don't publish more photos of Saddam's henchmen cutting off hands, throwing people off buildings, cutting off tounges, feeding people into woodchippers or maybe more of the bodies of the people he gassed.
That's a good question. The answer lies with the "Global Left." America is supposed to be perfect, you see. When we screw up, it is to the entertainment of all those that need to exonerate themselves from their impotency. Pictures of the attrocities that are regularly and celebratingly executed in the Muslim world would only serve to remind them that they are not doing anything about it.

The "Global Left" was excited about the few Army National Guard Reserve "soldiers" at Abu Ghraib. It gave them their "exonerations."
 
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Stinger said:
I wonder why they don't publish more photos of Saddam's henchmen cutting off hands, throwing people off buildings, cutting off tounges, feeding people into woodchippers or maybe more of the bodies of the people he gassed.

Normal everyday occurences are not news. It is about expectations.
 

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GySgt said:
That's a good question. The answer lies with the "Global Left." America is supposed to be perfect, you see. When we screw up, it is to the entertainment of all those that need to exonerate themselves from their impotency. Pictures of the attrocities that are regularly and celebratingly executed in the Muslim world would only serve to remind them that they are not doing anything about it.

The "Global Left" was excited about the few Army National Guard Reserve "soldiers" at Abu Ghraib. It gave them their "exonerations."
Or maybee that you expect more from the democratic countries then you do from dictatorships...
 

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Well it seems that these guys might be naked with a few bruises but their heads were still intact. That is more than we can say about many of our prisoners that they so publically beheaded isnt it? The news media and U.S. bashers say nothing about this.

War is war. And its very easy for us to sit here in our safe homes and behind expensive computers and bash our military. But it seems that there are those people who think that the beheadings and the bodies that these so called peaceful Muslims desecrated after death are justified, not that big of a deal.

WE so easily forget those who were so brutally humilitaed, tortured and beheaded......

Daniel Pearl
Nicholas Berg
Paul Johnson Jr.
South Korean Kim Sun Il
Eugene Armstrong
Abdul Gani (Christian leader and doctor)
Dulal Sarkar
Salvatore Santoro
Enzo Baldoni
Margaret Hassan
and the list goes on and on.....people daily who we dont even hear about.

Where is the rage and anger over these deaths? Where are the cries for justice for innocent people all over the world that are captured by these animals? Will those murderers be brought to justice?

This is what someone had to say while watching the video that was broadcasted all over the world. Here is his account of a beheading......

"They pounced on him and began sawing at his neck, and I just barely kept it together, then I hear him sqealing like a pig and the air still pumping from his chest as his head was nearly off and I felt sick to my stomach, I felt hot and had a headache and I went outside to try to forget what I saw but the images are still in my head to this day. Normally I have a very strong stomach for this type of stuff but I can't bear myself to see any more like this one."

You compare this treatment to even the worst at Abu Ghraib......
We aren't the barbarians they are. There is a big difference between humiliation and murder.
 

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Originally posted by doughgirl
Well it seems that these guys might be naked with a few bruises but their heads were still intact. That is more than we can say about many of our prisoners that they so publically beheaded isnt it? The news media and U.S. bashers say nothing about this.

War is war. And its very easy for us to sit here in our safe homes and behind expensive computers and bash our military. But it seems that there are those people who think that the beheadings and the bodies that these so called peaceful Muslims desecrated after death are justified, not that big of a deal.

WE so easily forget those who were so brutally humilitaed, tortured and beheaded......

Daniel Pearl
Nicholas Berg
Paul Johnson Jr.
South Korean Kim Sun Il
Eugene Armstrong
Abdul Gani (Christian leader and doctor)
Dulal Sarkar
Salvatore Santoro
Enzo Baldoni
Margaret Hassan
and the list goes on and on.....people daily who we dont even hear about.

Where is the rage and anger over these deaths? Where are the cries for justice for innocent people all over the world that are captured by these animals? Will those murderers be brought to justice?

This is what someone had to say while watching the video that was broadcasted all over the world. Here is his account of a beheading......

"They pounced on him and began sawing at his neck, and I just barely kept it together, then I hear him sqealing like a pig and the air still pumping from his chest as his head was nearly off and I felt sick to my stomach, I felt hot and had a headache and I went outside to try to forget what I saw but the images are still in my head to this day. Normally I have a very strong stomach for this type of stuff but I can't bear myself to see any more like this one."

You compare this treatment to even the worst at Abu Ghraib......
We aren't the barbarians they are. There is a big difference between humiliation and murder.
We murder too. And with our high-tech weapons, were a lot better at it. I guarantee you we killed more of them than they did to us. It takes a lot of hate to saw someones head off. Do you ever wonder what the driving forces are to make someone that psycho? We seem to keep forgeting that we invaded them. They didn't do anything to us, yet we attacked anyway. No one is condoning those skumbag's that chop off heads. What they did is horrible. And they should be brought to justice for their crimes. But justice doesn't work unless it is across the board. And were going around in Iraq with total impunity.

1200 people were killed in the assault on Falluja. Doctor's there say most of them were women and children. Where's your concience there?

A soldier currently in Iraq who works as a medic wrote me a few days ago:
“I do sick-call for the detainees. Right now, I think they have mechanics guarding the detainees. I’ve talked to them a couple of times and they’ve made comments like “if they were detained, they are probably bad…” A couple of times I’ve pointed out that: 1) they might very well be innocent and 2) that they are still human. The guards seemed to really acknowledge that. But it’s almost like everyone knows the emperor is naked, but are trying to cling to the idea that he is wearing new clothes. When someone points out that he might be naked, it gives them the freedom to acknowledge that as well. The real travesty, I think, is the American people. With no exposure to Iraqis, all they see on the news is that we are killing the bad guys, and they don’t see the refugee camps, or how we trash cities (collateral damage seems a nice phrase, because it’s not their homes which are being destroyed. Not the sons and daughters of their friends who are being killed.) They don’t see the casual way most soldiers feel about destroying property. All they see is what they are told, and unless it’s stamped with a corporations seal, it lacks legitimacy in their eyes and it gets relegated to an “extremist position.””


http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog/archives/dispatches/000279.php
The link here will show in graphic detail photo's of the result of US aggression (including the British beatings).
 

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Bergslagstroll said:
Or maybee that you expect more from the democratic countries then you do from dictatorships...
Well in the "democratic countries" (I assume you mean the USA even though we are not a democratic country) the prepetrators were punished and are now serving time in prison. So what was the point of the new pictures and why not show more of what Saddam and his henchmen did, many of whom are now the so-called insurgence.
 

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Bergslagstroll said:
Or maybee that you expect more from the democratic countries then you do from dictatorships...

No. The "Global Left" expects perfection and salivates at any chance to show err. It's their exoneration. American military and CIA operates all over the world. There is never any mention of anything until we trip.

For example...U.S. Marines on a training exercise in the Phillipines and Marines stationed on Okinawa are right now clawing at the earth to dig up survivors from the landslide.

For example...U.S. Marines are actively conducting training missions with the Chadian military in Africa to combat Radical Islam.

For example...U.S. Marines are currently in Georgia training their national troops to protect themselves from aggression.

For example...U.S. Marines are currently located in Ethiopia combatting Radical Islamists and protecting U.S. SeaBees as they build and repair infrastructures.

For example...U.S. Marines are protecting the streets of Fallujah and safeguarding the contractor element as they work to build an infrastructure of water pipes and electric cabling that didn't exist before 2003.

Is any of this of any matter to the "Global Left?" Of course not. They save their finger pointing for when a soldier flushes a Koran or some nasty Army National Guardsmen Reserve acts unprofessional in a prison. They spew forth accusations of events that will always occur during war. They wait for anything that will allow them their self-righteous platform to point from comfortable positions to excuse their impotence and absence from the world theater.

It has nothing to do with the sentiment of "expecting more from the democratic countries." The "Global Left" already gets more from us than any other country or region on the planet. It has everything to do with glorified impotence.
 

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Billo_Really said:
We murder too. And with our high-tech weapons, were a lot better at it. I guarantee you we killed more of them than they did to us. It takes a lot of hate to saw someones head off. Do you ever wonder what the driving forces are to make someone that psycho? We seem to keep forgeting that we invaded them. They didn't do anything to us, yet we attacked anyway. No one is condoning those skumbag's that chop off heads. What they did is horrible. And they should be brought to justice for their crimes. But justice doesn't work unless it is across the board. And were going around in Iraq with total impunity.

1200 people were killed in the assault on Falluja. Doctor's there say most of them were women and children. Where's your concience there?

The link here will show in graphic detail photo's of the result of US aggression (including the British beatings).
War is war. A conscience is for troops after the battle and for people who sit on the bench. Civillians that place themselves as shields for their Radical element make themselves targets. Terrorists that use their family as a means to make the military impotent are responsible for their deaths. What you are so perfectly whining about is nothing. We are being held back from doing what we should. America's best weapon is our raw power. Our greatest hinderance is our refrainment from using it. Instead we continue to try to fight "casualty-free" wars which was a Gulf War legacy and we continue to give our enemies breathing space. There is no quicker way to the end of any war that doesn't involve killing off your enemy. If the enemy hides within their populations, shoot from hospitals, mosques, and ambulances, fake injury or wave a white flag to lure out Marines and Corpsemen from their cover.....they condemn themselves to our reaction.

Stop trolling for the enemy. Perhaps if you jumped in a uniform, you could teach us all how to conduct warfare with the absolute perfection you can't seem to live without.
 
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cnredd

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GySgt said:
Is any of this of any matter to the "Global Left?" Of course not. They save their finger pointing for when a soldier flushes a Koran or some nasty Army National Guardsmen Reserve acts unprofessional in a prison. They spew forth accusations of events that will always occur during war. They wait for anything that will allow them their self-righteous platform to point from comfortable positions to excuse their impotence and absence from the world theater.
If the USA played a baseball game and won 30-0, the headlines around the world would read,

"Americans walk a batter in the 4th inning."...
 
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