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America Will Never Be A Socialist Country

Hadrian

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The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.
 

Keridan

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The more the government controls producers (job creators), the closer you are to socialism. That does not make all socialist policies evil, but it's hard to draw the line on something creeping in.

I would hate to see us take some tips from Europe and *shudder* end up being like them as a whole. Not all their ideas are bad, but the whole of the place is not somewhere we want to end up falling to.
 

calamity

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The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.
It’s socialist for farmers who were handed $12B farm bailouts
 

Helix

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i find it annoying that the US lags behind the rest of the first world when it comes to health care access / costs, basic benefits, job security, and quality of life. however, the way to fix this couldn't be more clear. we have to demand better, and vote as many Republicans out as possible. is that socialism, though? nope. i don't support seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers.
 

OrphanSlug

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All the more evidence that no one knows what socialism really means, but the term is sure going to be used to frighten people.
 

Keridan

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I might agree with you if I didn't believe that for trickle down to work it needs to be legislated.

Sorry, was this a reply to me? I can't be sure, since I don't support trickle down, but it might be assumed from my post. Please try to reply with quote so we know who you are addressing.
 

Keridan

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i find it annoying that the US lags behind the rest of the first world when it comes to health care access / costs, basic benefits, job security, and quality of life. however, the way to fix this couldn't be more clear. we have to demand better, and vote as many Republicans out as possible. is that socialism, though? nope. i don't support seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers.

Totally disagree with most of what you said, but you said it well and inoffensively (a rare skill the last couple weeks).

We don't lag so far behind unless you grant the premise used in so many of those "studies". If you read the criteria, they tend to be very biased towards giving things away and state-granted care. Our system is very flawed, but cherry-picking stats for comparison doesn't help things.
 

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i find it annoying that the US lags behind the rest of the first world when it comes to health care access / costs, basic benefits, job security, and quality of life. however, the way to fix this couldn't be more clear. we have to demand better, and vote as many Republicans out as possible. is that socialism, though? nope. i don't support seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers.

So you're more into the Elizabeth Warren version of Capitalism where the state doesn't seize private industry but they regulate it to the extent that there would be no functional difference if it was seized. Is that about right?
 

Kobie

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i find it annoying that the US lags behind the rest of the first world when it comes to health care access / costs, basic benefits, job security, and quality of life. however, the way to fix this couldn't be more clear. we have to demand better, and vote as many Republicans out as possible. is that socialism, though? nope. i don't support seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers.

Good thing nobody’s really advocating that.
 

Helix

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Totally disagree with most of what you said, but you said it well and inoffensively (a rare skill the last couple weeks).

We don't lag so far behind unless you grant the premise used in so many of those "studies". If you read the criteria, they tend to be very biased towards giving things away and state-granted care. Our system is very flawed, but cherry-picking stats for comparison doesn't help things.

we lag pretty far behind. our health care is horrendously overpriced, and even having access to it largely depends on where you live and work. our average vacation benefits suck compared to pretty much everyone else in the first world, and we rank low on pretty much every first world quality of life index. fixing that isn't socialism. seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers is real socialism. i don't support doing that.
 

Obscurity

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The more the government controls producers (job creators), the closer you are to socialism. That does not make all socialist policies evil, but it's hard to draw the line on something creeping in.

I would hate to see us take some tips from Europe and *shudder* end up being like them as a whole. Not all their ideas are bad, but the whole of the place is not somewhere we want to end up falling to.

Wrong. The more they control the means of production the closer you get to communism.

Take some tips from Europe?

You mean like having to list carcinogens that may be in children's products? Is that evil? In the US corporations have free reign to put carcinogens into their products and conceal them under proprietary laws and loop holes like the fragrance loop hole.

You tell me what ****ing capitalist or republican is speaking out against this practice.

We have a whole lot to learn from Europe.
 

Keridan

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we lag pretty far behind. our health care is horrendously overpriced, and even having access to it largely depends on where you live and work. our average vacation benefits suck compared to pretty much everyone else in the first world, and we rank low on pretty much every first world quality of life index. fixing that isn't socialism. seizing the means of production and giving it to the workers is real socialism. i don't support doing that.

Our quality of care is higher and raises the standards around the world by making R&D profitable, better equipment available and more. There is a big reason 17 of the best 20 hospitals in the world are in the US and most of the best docs in the world run here as soon as they can after graduation to practice here.

I'll give you vacation benefits. I practice different personally with my employees. Fringe benefits are something we do lag on.

We could get into these points all day. They are relevant, but details on a larger picture. I don't think you support seizing production, but as Luther pointed out, enough regulation has the same effect.

We do make some sacrifices in return for being the best at many many things. It's hard to find the balance.

Even as a libertarian, I know free market without regulation is a sick joke. Adam Smith himself saw flaws that could arise a hundred years before they did. If we go too far with regulation, though, we have the same people running private business who run the department of education, social security, and a hundred other failed programs. It has to be done in pieces and stopped at the right point.
 

Keridan

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Wrong. The more they control the means of production the closer you get to communism.

Take some tips from Europe?

You mean like having to list carcinogens that may be in children's products? Is that evil? In the US corporations have free reign to put carcinogens into their products and conceal them under proprietary laws and loop holes like the fragrance loop hole.

You tell me what ****ing capitalist or republican is speaking out against this practice.

We have a whole lot to learn from Europe.

Please try to comprehend before replying. Good luck with that and all.
 

tres borrachos

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"Socialism" has become this month's "Caravans". A word being bandied around to scare people. It's dumb. As dumb as when everyone was positively convinced that Obama was going to take everyone's guns away - and for the record, I was guilty of that, too. It never happened. Just like Sarah Palin's death panels never happened.
 

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I think that people need to first define what they mean by "Socialism"
 

Mycroft

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"Socialism" has become this month's "Caravans". A word being bandied around to scare people. It's dumb. As dumb as when everyone was positively convinced that Obama was going to take everyone's guns away - and for the record, I was guilty of that, too. It never happened. Just like Sarah Palin's death panels never happened.

You can thank AOC and her socialist friends for that...as well as the media who splash her nonsense all over the multimedia echo chamber.
 

Felis Leo

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Wrong. The more they control the means of production the closer you get to communism.

Take some tips from Europe?

You mean like having to list carcinogens that may be in children's products? Is that evil? In the US corporations have free reign to put carcinogens into their products and conceal them under proprietary laws and loop holes like the fragrance loop hole.

You tell me what ****ing capitalist or republican is speaking out against this practice.

We have a whole lot to learn from Europe.

I do not think so, Obscurity. I think the United States has learned how to overspend tax dollars, over-borrow sovereign debt, stagnate and crumble without taking lessons from the European Union. The only major difference I see between the United States and European Union is that not only do the governments overspend, the governments then force the private sector to overspend on employee benefits.
 

Obscurity

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Please try to comprehend before replying. Good luck with that and all.

When you claim education and social security are failed programs, it is you who needs to comprehend.

Education is not negotiable. I am for outlawing private education full stop.

We would see very quickly how excellent our education system would become if we stopped rich elitists from avoiding programs they help to demonize if we took away their pet projects.

Like I said, carcinogens in kids clothing. That's something Leonard Lance, a republican, wants to enshrine permanently by refusing TSCA reform.

These are issues people care about, and when I hear idiotic libertarians go on and on about "consumers making choices", it always makes me laugh. How can you make a choice if you're not told what's in the product? How can a consumer be informed when secrecy prevents them from obtaining the truth?

Those are market based protectionist ideas, which you clearly support.
 

Obscurity

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I do not think so, Obscurity. I think the United States has learned how to overspend tax dollars, over-borrow sovereign debt, stagnate and crumble without taking lessons from the European Union. The only major difference I see between the United States and European Union is that not only do the governments overspend, the governments then force the private sector to overspend on employee benefits.

And you completely ignore the reality of what I posted. Yes, the US overspends. It does not overtax. We are injected into too many conflicts and are focused on too many geostrategic goals to focus on our own.

However, the EU handles chemicals and whatnot far more intelligently, than our "do harm first, recompense by suing later" system. It must be reformed. For too long manufacturers have been able to poison our people and lie to them with the cover of republican politicians offering anti-regulatory rhetoric, solely to their benefit.
 

Obscurity

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I think that people need to first define what they mean by "Socialism"

What most rightists think socialism is more akin to Stalinist Communism. They literally do not understand the difference, and trying to explain it to them gets you nowhere.
 

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Yes it was. I'm still learning my way around this forum.

No problem at all! Just wanted to make sure before I replied to you.

I don't actually support trickle down. I prefer to see as little taxation as needed to keep things going, but that's a general rule. I also believe that progressive taxation is a necessary evil. You can't take blood from a stone and a lot of people wouldn't produce nearly the same taxes as one wealthy person.

I believe that if the government's help is needed in boosting the economy, it is through trying to help create jobs in general. Infrastructure spending has to happen anyway and can help people get on their feet. Subsidies done right can help other companies hire more, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that the company will be an ongoing concern (will last).

In order of preference (going based on need) I see three options. Government gets out of the way (nice, but doesn't always work..monopolies..unsafe work..etc). Government helps create jobs (notice helps... we cannot become reliant on government paying people indefinitely). Last, but still needs to happen sometimes is government gives flat aid.

As I said, socialist practices aren't evil because any regulation can be classified that way. It's only when you go too far. We may disagree where the line has to be drawn, but it definitely has to. We are not well served by the masters of failed programs running our lives.
 

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What most rightists think socialism is more akin to Stalinist Communism. They literally do not understand the difference, and trying to explain it to them gets you nowhere.

That is why I ask to define what is meant.

Otherwise it leads to a very slippery conversation.
 

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I might agree with you if I didn't believe that for trickle down to work it needs to be legislated.

Legislating economics is if not socialism, certainly a giant step towards that goal.
 
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