America Was NOT Founded On Christian Principles

[Tigerace117]

Fail.

Try again.

Oh look, more sputtering because you don’t like having to face the facts.

 

[Logicman]

(To The Baron) -

You quoted Thomas Jefferson, for example. What else did he say?

“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
“I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature.”
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god.”

The teachings of Jesus were Orthodox Christianity, so it looks like you conveniently decided to forget about this one:

In a letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote “I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

Other quotes merely mention 'god', yet many of the founding fathers were deists...

Name five.

 

[Logicman]

Next time one of them brings up a Christian government, show them this​

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/uw7ivu/next_time_one_of_them_brings_up_a_christian/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Nuts. I'll provide just one quote (and there are many) to show you how stunted your samples are.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." - John Adams

Recommended Reading:

 

[RAMOSS]

The teachings of Jesus were Orthodox Christianity, so it looks like you conveniently decided to forget about this one:

In a letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote “I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."



Name five.

Of course, your quote is what is known as a 'quote mine', since it ignores the other parts of his letter. Let's look at his whole letter..

In some of the delightful conversations with you, in the evenings of 1798. 99. which1 served as an Anodyne to the afflictions of the crisis through which our country was then labouring, the Christian religion was sometimes our topic: and I then promised you that, one day or other, I would give you my views of it. they are the result of a life of enquiry & reflection, and very different from that Anti-Christian system, imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. to the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human2 excellence, & believing he never claimed any other. at the short3 intervals, since these conversations, when I could justifiably abstract my mind from public affairs,4 this subject has been under my contemplation. but the more I considered it, the more it expanded beyond the measure of either my time or information. in the moment of my late departure from Monticello,5 I recieved from Doctr. Priestly his little treatise of ‘Socrates & Jesus compared.’ this being a section of the general view I had taken of the field, it became a subject of reflection, while on the road, and unoccupied otherwise. the result was, to arrange in my mind a Syllabus, or Outline, of such an Estimate of the comparative merits of Christianity, as I wished to see executed, by some one of more leisure and information for the task than myself. this I now send you, as the only discharge of my promise I can probably ever execute. and, in confiding it to you, I know it will not be exposed to the malignant perversions of those who make6 every word from me a text for new misrepresentations & calumnies. I am moreover averse to the communication of my religious tenets to the public; because it would countenance the presumption of those who have endeavored to draw them before that tribunal, and to seduce public opinion to erect itself into that Inquisition over the rights of 7 conscience, which the laws have so justly proscribed. it behoves every man, who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others;8 or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own. it behoves him too, in his own case, to give no example of concession, betraying the common right of independant opinion, by answering questions of faith, which the laws have left between god & himself. Accept my affectionate salutations.

So, basically he is saying he is a Christian about his ethical lessons, and not Jesus as any more than just a human being.

So, your quote is shown to be taken out of context.

 

[Lisa]

The teachings of Jesus were Orthodox Christianity, so it looks like you conveniently decided to forget about this one:

In a letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote “I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."



Name five.

Did you bother to also read that Jefferson eliminated any of the parts of Jesus such as the his immaculate conception, his miracles and the resurrection?

While Jefferson was a firm theist, the God in which he believed was not the traditional Christian divinity. Jefferson rejected the notion of the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin (believing that God could not fault or condemn all humanity for the sins of others, a gross injustice).10 In neither the eighteenth century nor today would most people consider a person with those views a “Christian.”

In the end, categorizing Jefferson’s religion should be done with some caution. He was baptized and raised Anglican (and married and buried by Anglican ministers), but he rejected many of the tenets of that church. He regularly attended church of various denominations, but he declared that “I am of a sect by myself.” In simple terms, Jefferson is a theist (he believes in God). If a more precise label is sought, he might be labeled a Unitarian (a theist who rejects the Trinity), although there are many variations in Unitarians (some who believe Jesus was more than human, others who do not). In 1822, he boasted that “I confidently expect that the present generation will see Unitarianism become the general religion of the United States,” but he never formally joined that church. Technically, he was not a deist if the term is understood to mean belief in a god who created the universe and then left it to “run” on its own according to natural laws, a “clock-maker” god. Jefferson did believe that God actively engaged in time, sustaining creation on an ongoing basis; yet, in his rejection of Biblical miracles and belief that natural laws were the language of God, he certainly is deistic.

Jefferson was not a Christian, Letter to John Adams 11 April 1923

“And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding..​

 

[LittleNipper]

Jefferson rejected the belief of the Trinity and Jesus' divinity. He rejected Biblical miracles, the resurrection, the atonement, and original sin. Jefferson believed that to punish all humanity for the sin of someone else was unjust. The fault of Jefferson is that he assumed that GOD punishes everyone for the sins of Adam. The reality is GOD punishes everyone for the sins they themselves commit --- and the fact is that only CHRIST didn't commit any sin. The second problem with Jefferson is that he, in fact showed more contempt for Christianity than he was willing to show for slavery (he died a slave owner and NEVER freed his slaves even after death). Why should the son of a slave be punished and remain in chains because his father was a slave? Was Jefferson a hypocrite?

 

[The Baron]

Oh look, more sputtering because you don’t like having to face the facts.

I've posted far more facts here than you (or anyone else for that matter).

 

[Tigerace117]

I've posted far more facts here than you (or anyone else for that matter).

All you’ve posted is your own fantasies bud.

America’s never going to become a theocracy. Deal with it.

 

[The Baron]

All you’ve posted is your own fantasies bud.

America’s never going to become a theocracy. Deal with it.

Never said it would. Never advocated for one.

All I've done--and done admirably, I might add--is to show without doubt that the OP is wrong and that America does, was fact, founded on Christian principles by demonstrating:

1. Our Founders positive views on Christianity.
2. The importance placed on the Bible.
3. The Founders belief that religion and morality form the basis of freedom and liberty. And by religion they meant Christianity just as I've shown.
4. How a number of our rights come from the Bible and have demonstrated from just where in the Bible those we get those rights.
5. Have demonstrated how our entire federal government is based on Scripture (Isaiah 33:22).

By contradistinction, you have effectively demonstrated...nothing. You have adopted the poorly informed and erroneous OP. You lost this debate from the start by accepting a fallacy. This is why all your post are failures.

 

[Tigerace117]

Never said it would. Never advocated for one.

All I've done--and done admirably, I might add--is to show without doubt that the OP is wrong and that America does, was fact, founded on Christian principles by demonstrating:

1. Our Founders positive views on Christianity.
2. The importance placed on the Bible.
3. The Founders belief that religion and morality form the basis of freedom and liberty. And by religion they meant Christianity just as I've shown.
4. How a number of our rights come from the Bible and have demonstrated from just where in the Bible those we get those rights.
5. Have demonstrated how our entire federal government is based on Scripture (Isaiah 33:22).

By contradistinction, you have effectively demonstrated...nothing. You have adopted the poorly informed and erroneous OP. You lost this debate from the start by accepting a fallacy. This is why all your post are failures.

All you demonstrated was, in fact, your desperation— a desperation shared by conservative Christians across the country— to pretend that America was founded as a “Christian nation” as “justification” for imposing your religion on everyone else and scrapping the separation between church and state.

Claiming that the rights laid out in the Constitution came from the Bible is particularly amusing, especially given the long history of the Bible’s teachings being used as justification for all manner of atrocities.

 

[The Baron]

All you demonstrated was, in fact, your desperation— a desperation shared by conservative Christians across the country— to pretend that America was founded as a “Christian nation”...

I don't have to pretend. The evidence for this fact is overwhelming to any rational thinker interested in the truth.

....as “justification” for imposing your religion on everyone else and scrapping the separation between church and state.

I'm not trying to "force" my "religion" on anyone else. There is simply no evidence for that.

Claiming that the rights laid out in the Constitution came from the Bible is particularly amusing...

And yet I demonstrated that very thing.

...especially given the long history of the Bible’s teachings being used as justification for all manner of atrocities.

Oh, no doubt about it!

Which, of course, does nothing to change the fact that many of our rights come from the Bible just as I demonstrated.

And, still, you are left with nothing but the self-assured (and that's all it is) conviction that America was not founded on Christianity when you have been shown--oh so clearly!--that it is.

 

[Bear5131]

All you demonstrated was, in fact, your desperation— a desperation shared by conservative Christians across the country— to pretend that America was founded as a “Christian nation” as “justification” for imposing your religion on everyone else and scrapping the separation between church and state.

Claiming that the rights laid out in the Constitution came from the Bible is particularly amusing, especially given the long history of the Bible’s teachings being used as justification for all manner of atrocities.

They don't impose their religion on anyone

 

[vegas giants]

Never said it would. Never advocated for one.

All I've done--and done admirably, I might add--is to show without doubt that the OP is wrong and that America does, was fact, founded on Christian principles by demonstrating:

1. Our Founders positive views on Christianity.
2. The importance placed on the Bible.
3. The Founders belief that religion and morality form the basis of freedom and liberty. And by religion they meant Christianity just as I've shown.
4. How a number of our rights come from the Bible and have demonstrated from just where in the Bible those we get those rights.
5. Have demonstrated how our entire federal government is based on Scripture (Isaiah 33:22).

By contradistinction, you have effectively demonstrated...nothing. You have adopted the poorly informed and erroneous OP. You lost this debate from the start by accepting a fallacy. This is why all your post are failures.

Yet the constitution never once mentions Christianity

 

[Tigerace117]

They don't impose their religion on anyone

They certainly try to.....routinely.

 

[Tigerace117]

I don't have to pretend. The evidence for this fact is overwhelming to any rational thinker interested in the truth.

I'm not trying to "force" my "religion" on anyone else. There is simply no evidence for that.

And yet I demonstrated that very thing.

Oh, no doubt about it!

Which, of course, does nothing to change the fact that many of our rights come from the Bible just as I demonstrated.

And, still, you are left with nothing but the self-assured (and that's all it is) conviction that America was not founded on Christianity when you have been shown--oh so clearly!--that it is.

“Rational thinkers interested in the truth” don’t cling to the fantasy that America was created as a “Christian nation”.

The founders EXPLICITLY ensured that Christians couldn’t impose their religion on the rest of the country.

 

[Bear5131]

“Rational thinkers interested in the truth” don’t cling to the fantasy that America was created as a “Christian nation”.

The founders EXPLICITLY ensured that Christians couldn’t impose their religion on the rest of the country.

OK you win the founders of the country was Muslims and atheist who had slaves and refused to give the women the right to vote.

 

[Tigerace117]

OK you win the founders of the country was Muslims and atheist who had slaves and refused to give the women the right to vote.

Nope, American slavery was VERY much rooted in the Bible, specifically the “Curse of Ham” and other such “readings”.

 

[Bear5131]

Nope, American slavery was VERY much rooted in the Bible, specifically the “Curse of Ham” and other such “readings”.

So know we were founded by Christians?


I am going to need a score card to keep up with you.

 

[Tigerace117]

So know we were founded by Christians?


I am going to need a score card to keep up with you.

So the Founders explicitly wanted to ensure that Christians couldn’t impose their religion on everyone else.

Duh.

 

[Slartibartfast]

This question might always be murky.

On one hand, you had a culture that was very much not secular at the time. On the other hand, many of the founding fathers were revolutionaries that wanted a new order and to be away from the trappings of the old world. One of those trappings was a governmental church paradigm.

In my mind, focusing on what the FFs intended to do is the way to get to the truth of the situation. In this case, the truth is that the FFs wanted to get away from the concept of a governmental church.

Constitutional Expert On ‘Separation Of Church And State’: Framers Said Nothing Wrong With Religion In Culture | Stanford Law School

The phrase "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the Constitution, and the Founding Fathers saw nothing wrong with having reli

law.stanford.edu

The founding fathers got a lot of things wrong when they wrote the constitution (of course many of those things did make more sense for a low technology, low population, agrarian society), but I think they got this one spot on. The sad fact is when churches get too big or too entrenched, abuses start to happen. We saw that with things like indulgences, the crusades, and the inquisition with the Catholic Church, witch burnings at Salem, and even today an article has come out about a massive sex abuse scandal with the SBC. For Christianity to remain pure, it has to be grass roots, at least in this age. The separation of church and state actually protects religion far more than it harms it. Its better than being like Belgium where there is a well funded church that nobody attends, for example.

 

[Bear5131]

So the Founders explicitly wanted to ensure that Christians couldn’t impose their religion on everyone else.

Duh.

Again so the Muslim and atheist founders could have slaves and deny the women the right to vote.

Check

 

[Tigerace117]

Again so the Muslim and atheist founders could have slaves and deny the women the right to vote.

Check

Nope, again American slavery was very much based in the Bible.

Duh.

 

[Bear5131]

Nope, again American slavery was very much based in the Bible.

Duh.

Try try and try you can't have it both ways

 

[Tigerace117]

Try try and try you can't have it both ways

Once again, no amount of squirming can change the fact that the founders explicitly worked to prevent Christians from imposing their religion on everyone else.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Try try and try you can't have it both ways

Yet, that is literally what happened. At the founding of the US, you had multiple social forces, each vying to have their way. The various social forces were successful in various ways and failed in others. The end result is a mishmash of policies and reasons for those policies.

Exactly like today.