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America IS shifting farther Left - Seems to be a permanent shift

NoLeftNoRight

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The majority of the Conservative base is aging. The majority of the young are being taught and made accustomed to Liberal / Progressive leanings.
Christianity is no longer universally accepted and protected. There is no real resistance from the right to counter these changes.
While the right moans, the Progressives continue to uproot traditional right wing values and replace them with Progressive / Liberal values.
It is a never ending crusade, with no real opposition or resistance. And I don't forsee any.

Liberal / Progressive values are making major inroads in nearly every aspect of American life. If you are left leaning, you probably feel pretty good about Americas current direction.

So it seems fairly comfortable to say that within one or two more generations (assuming the current trajectory continues), the Left will become pretty much mainstream, much as Conservative values were 100 years ago.

Good thing? Bad thing? Will a Liberal Progressive America usher in a new era of brotherhood and harmony? Will a Progressive / Liberal America be a leader in world peace?
How will the world change given the changes to the USA?

I personally find many Progressive and Liberal (assuming they run mostly parallel) values a bit hard to cope with. Socialism, the embracing of homosexuality, relaxed drug use, a position of less military power offset by more social programs and welfare. Whether I like it or not, I may be forced to accept and abide by Progressive and Liberal values as time marches forward.
I can easily see the 2nd amendments last gasps in decades to come. As the courts ween out those with traditional conservative values, in time, it can easily be seen how personal ownership of guns will be outlawed one day. The US Constitution never could defend the rights of People....only People could defend the Constitution and the rights written there. And they aren't.
If you are a true Liberal / Progressive, this is probably excellent and long awaited good news. If you were brought up with traditional values, it probably seems less so.

But what about the changes the Left will make to our economic system? Eventually, a Bernie Sanders probably will get elected and become President. I can see an eventual fracturing of the Progressive / Liberal sides with more moderate Progressives becoming the new "Right wing" pitted against the far Left more radical Progressives. 40 to 80 years from now, political fights and political parties will be contests between shades of Liberalism. Judging by modern Liberals behavior, I can see those being VERY violent times.

Anyway, trying not to judge...just reflecting on it all. I think the USA will be VASTLY different in 100 years.
Hard to say at this point whether it will be better or worse. LOTS more government control over lives. LOTS less small business. MUCH bigger welfare rolls.
Fewer personal liberties. But somehow, maybe that will make for a better society. It's beyond me to see it. I see poverty and hardship on the horizon on scales currently foreign to most Americans.
In a way, I'm glad I won't be here. But then, that's probably just the Conservative side of me lamenting. The Left sure does seem to have an answer for every Right wing argument.

I wish I had a time machine and could travel forward 200, 300, 500 years and see the changes to come.
Does anyone see any other path?
What mechanism could reverse the current trend and push the USA back to the right and towards conservatism? Anything?

I do realize that the USA has had swings from left to right over it's history, but THIS time feels different. It certainly seems as if the trend is certain and unstoppable.
I believe that if Hillary Clinton is elected, that any right wing footholds will be basically lost and our nation will be set permanently on a Left wing / Progressive / Liberal course going forward.
Actually, it already seems that has happened.
 

Henrin

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Sadly your right that the country is moving further and further left. The worst part is that the speed in which the left is acting to get their way has increased considerably and they don't really seem to care what anyone else thinks. I wish the people actually winning weren't interested in governmental control to such a massive scale, but sadly that isn't the case.

What really gets me though is that they actually believe somewhere in their head that they actually believe in freedom. You know when they are passing more and more laws that by definition force people to do what the government wants. It absolutely amazes me that after centuries of time people still believe the government makes people more free.
 
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Henrin

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Anyway, there is no way back at this point. If you want a smaller government you have to destroy this one and replace it.
 

Mithrae

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I don't think we can really understand or push towards what the future might hold without understanding broad historical trends. Most notably in my opinion:

Social inclusiveness > progressing from limits to the supposed divine right of kings (eg. the Magna Carta); to the institution of republics and constitutional/parliamentary monarchy; to the abolition of formal slavery; to women's suffrage; to black/minority suffrage and non-discrimation; to abortion rights; to gay rights. Whether or not those are considered good things (and at least one member on the forum does not consider democracy good), there's a clear trend there, whose momentum doesn't seem to be slowing. Gay rights are approaching a done deal, and now transgender rights are rising on the horizon.

Globalisation > progressing from primitive loyalty to family or tribe; to loyalty for city-states or small nations; to vast nations and hegemonies: Now we're in a world of free trade agreements, global communications and travel, and at least the pretense of international cooperation on a range of issues which affect the planet and species as a whole such as ozone depletion, management of fisheries, climate change and so on. Multinational corporations are now at the point of threatening national democracy itself, suing countries like Australia over public health measures such as plain packaging for cigarettes; and all domestic economy policies are judged by the yardstick of how they'll fare in the international arena. Again like it or not, the trend seems to point in the direction of increasing emphasis on the international/global scale and decreasing importance for the nation-state.

Technology and automation > progressing from figuring out how to tame animals to reduce our workload and get more done; to harnessing fossil fuel power; to computers and robotics. We're fast entering an era in which fast food workers, cashiers, truck and aeroplane drivers, accountants, lawyers, doctors and many others will soon have far less work available, in some cases none at all, and it's highly unlikely that there'll be enough new, un-automatable jobs opening up to employ them all.



Conservative or right-wing positions seem to oppose or deny trends such as these in most cases: Would it be any surprise if in fact they are losing out?

> What are the conservative policies intended to prepare for a likely halving of the need for human employment in the next few decades?
> When we're colonising other planets and other star systems, 100 and 200 years from now, will we still be squabbling over loyalties determined by historical and geographic accidents on planet Earth?
> With heavy labour and high risk occupations becoming increasingly obsolete, overpopulation being more of a concern than too few babies, and gender differentiations increasingly trivial, how will conservatives cope with increasing numbers who don't want to be forced into traditional roles and identities?

I'd say that right-wing policies still very much have the upper hand as far as international trade relations go. There is no strong global/international democratic body or movement, meaning both that stronger countries are well able to dominate in exchanges with the weak (dumping masses of heavily-subsidized agricultural products on third world markets for example, jeopardizing the livelihoods of majority-employment sectors there), and that fear of other countries' competition could potentially produce a race to the bottom in areas like labour and environmental standards (fortunately less so in practice than might be expected from theory).

But in terms of domestic social policies, preparations for largely post-labour economies, and progress towards an international environment of competition rather than opposition and containment - hopefully with active cooperation on issues of global concern - it would seem that at their best progressive policies are precisely that: Forward-thinking and progressive.
 
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TurtleDude

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there is no doubt more and more people are addicted to suckling on the government teat and its easier to win elections promising voters easier access to those teats than telling people they ought to be responsible for earning their own milk

that is bad

getting rid of the idiocy of bible thumping bigotry-that on the other hand is good

what we really need is a GOP that is adamant about rights =both economic and on the constitution and agnostic on the social issues like abortion and gay rights and prayer in school
 

Henrin

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there is no doubt more and more people are addicted to suckling on the government teat and its easier to win elections promising voters easier access to those teats than telling people they ought to be responsible for earning their own milk

that is bad

getting rid of the idiocy of bible thumping bigotry-that on the other hand is good

what we really need is a GOP that is adamant about rights =both economic and on the constitution and agnostic on the social issues like abortion and gay rights and prayer in school

As a libertarian you really can't support gay rights as gays advocates desire them to be. As for pray in school, I really don't give a ****, seriously. If I had my the public education wouldn't exist and that whole stinking omfg religion crap in school would be gone. Really though, I just don't want to hear about it from liberals when they are responsible for most of the brainwashing in schools.
 

EMNofSeattle

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I don't know that any political shift is truly permanent, in the early 1900s socialism was a very strong force in politics. There's been swings in both political directions over the centuries.

I wouldn't fear for the second amendment, studies have shown that the millennial generation is actually the most supportive of gun rights of the current generations in politics. The WW2 generation overwhelmingly supported gun control.

Many of the liberal issues america is moving left on are social issues that are seen as rights issues, like gay marriage and marihuana.

We are moving in a post religious direction.
 

spud_meister

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It's called progress, and it's inevitable. A stagnating society is a dying society.
 

AGENT J

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The majority of the Conservative base is aging. The majority of the young are being taught and made accustomed to Liberal / Progressive leanings.
Christianity is no longer universally accepted and protected. There is no real resistance from the right to counter these changes.
While the right moans, the Progressives continue to uproot traditional right wing values and replace them with Progressive / Liberal values.
It is a never ending crusade, with no real opposition or resistance. And I don't forsee any.

Liberal / Progressive values are making major inroads in nearly every aspect of American life. If you are left leaning, you probably feel pretty good about Americas current direction.

So it seems fairly comfortable to say that within one or two more generations (assuming the current trajectory continues), the Left will become pretty much mainstream, much as Conservative values were 100 years ago.

Good thing? Bad thing? Will a Liberal Progressive America usher in a new era of brotherhood and harmony? Will a Progressive / Liberal America be a leader in world peace?
How will the world change given the changes to the USA?

I personally find many Progressive and Liberal (assuming they run mostly parallel) values a bit hard to cope with. Socialism, the embracing of homosexuality, relaxed drug use, a position of less military power offset by more social programs and welfare. Whether I like it or not, I may be forced to accept and abide by Progressive and Liberal values as time marches forward.
I can easily see the 2nd amendments last gasps in decades to come. As the courts ween out those with traditional conservative values, in time, it can easily be seen how personal ownership of guns will be outlawed one day. The US Constitution never could defend the rights of People....only People could defend the Constitution and the rights written there. And they aren't.
If you are a true Liberal / Progressive, this is probably excellent and long awaited good news. If you were brought up with traditional values, it probably seems less so.

But what about the changes the Left will make to our economic system? Eventually, a Bernie Sanders probably will get elected and become President. I can see an eventual fracturing of the Progressive / Liberal sides with more moderate Progressives becoming the new "Right wing" pitted against the far Left more radical Progressives. 40 to 80 years from now, political fights and political parties will be contests between shades of Liberalism. Judging by modern Liberals behavior, I can see those being VERY violent times.

Anyway, trying not to judge...just reflecting on it all. I think the USA will be VASTLY different in 100 years.
Hard to say at this point whether it will be better or worse. LOTS more government control over lives. LOTS less small business. MUCH bigger welfare rolls.
Fewer personal liberties. But somehow, maybe that will make for a better society. It's beyond me to see it. I see poverty and hardship on the horizon on scales currently foreign to most Americans.
In a way, I'm glad I won't be here. But then, that's probably just the Conservative side of me lamenting. The Left sure does seem to have an answer for every Right wing argument.

I wish I had a time machine and could travel forward 200, 300, 500 years and see the changes to come.
Does anyone see any other path?
What mechanism could reverse the current trend and push the USA back to the right and towards conservatism? Anything?

I do realize that the USA has had swings from left to right over it's history, but THIS time feels different. It certainly seems as if the trend is certain and unstoppable.
I believe that if Hillary Clinton is elected, that any right wing footholds will be basically lost and our nation will be set permanently on a Left wing / Progressive / Liberal course going forward.
Actually, it already seems that has happened.

uhm just in your first paragraph alone . . .

if you are talking about my country, the united states which it seems you are since you mention it . . .Im a christian and Christianity was NEVER "universally accepted" and it is 100% protected in this country. Would you like to try again.
 

Henrin

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It's called progress, and it's inevitable. A stagnating society is a dying society.

Does a government need to be more powerful for the society itself to grow and prosper? If so, why?
 

Jetboogieman

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Anyway, there is no way back at this point. If you want a smaller government you have to destroy this one and replace it.

Problem with you especially is you want to replace it with nothing... Otherwise known as anarchy.
 

spud_meister

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Does a government need to be more powerful for the society itself to grow and prosper? If so, why?

To ensure stability. Minarchist governments tend to massive social inequality, and this ends in either a growth of government to stabilise the nation, or in revolution.

Can you provide an example of a nation with a minimalist government that didn't end in massive power growth, or have atrocities such as slavery?
 

Dragonfly

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Why in hell's bells should christianity be "protected"? :roll:
 

Tigerace117

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The majority of the Conservative base is aging. The majority of the young are being taught and made accustomed to Liberal / Progressive leanings.
Christianity is no longer universally accepted and protected. There is no real resistance from the right to counter these changes.
While the right moans, the Progressives continue to uproot traditional right wing values and replace them with Progressive / Liberal values.
It is a never ending crusade, with no real opposition or resistance. And I don't forsee any.

Liberal / Progressive values are making major inroads in nearly every aspect of American life. If you are left leaning, you probably feel pretty good about Americas current direction.

So it seems fairly comfortable to say that within one or two more generations (assuming the current trajectory continues), the Left will become pretty much mainstream, much as Conservative values were 100 years ago.

Good thing? Bad thing? Will a Liberal Progressive America usher in a new era of brotherhood and harmony? Will a Progressive / Liberal America be a leader in world peace?
How will the world change given the changes to the USA?

I personally find many Progressive and Liberal (assuming they run mostly parallel) values a bit hard to cope with. Socialism, the embracing of homosexuality, relaxed drug use, a position of less military power offset by more social programs and welfare. Whether I like it or not, I may be forced to accept and abide by Progressive and Liberal values as time marches forward.
I can easily see the 2nd amendments last gasps in decades to come. As the courts ween out those with traditional conservative values, in time, it can easily be seen how personal ownership of guns will be outlawed one day. The US Constitution never could defend the rights of People....only People could defend the Constitution and the rights written there. And they aren't.
If you are a true Liberal / Progressive, this is probably excellent and long awaited good news. If you were brought up with traditional values, it probably seems less so.

But what about the changes the Left will make to our economic system? Eventually, a Bernie Sanders probably will get elected and become President. I can see an eventual fracturing of the Progressive / Liberal sides with more moderate Progressives becoming the new "Right wing" pitted against the far Left more radical Progressives. 40 to 80 years from now, political fights and political parties will be contests between shades of Liberalism. Judging by modern Liberals behavior, I can see those being VERY violent times.

Anyway, trying not to judge...just reflecting on it all. I think the USA will be VASTLY different in 100 years.
Hard to say at this point whether it will be better or worse. LOTS more government control over lives. LOTS less small business. MUCH bigger welfare rolls.
Fewer personal liberties. But somehow, maybe that will make for a better society. It's beyond me to see it. I see poverty and hardship on the horizon on scales currently foreign to most Americans.
In a way, I'm glad I won't be here. But then, that's probably just the Conservative side of me lamenting. The Left sure does seem to have an answer for every Right wing argument.

I wish I had a time machine and could travel forward 200, 300, 500 years and see the changes to come.
Does anyone see any other path?
What mechanism could reverse the current trend and push the USA back to the right and towards conservatism? Anything?

I do realize that the USA has had swings from left to right over it's history, but THIS time feels different. It certainly seems as if the trend is certain and unstoppable.
I believe that if Hillary Clinton is elected, that any right wing footholds will be basically lost and our nation will be set permanently on a Left wing / Progressive / Liberal course going forward.
Actually, it already seems that has happened.

Honestly if you look at American history there was a pattern like this back in the late 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and maybe 1970.

The liberal consensus. Then there was a shift right wards.

This is just a shift back the other way, and who knows.

It's certainly not permanent.
 

NoLeftNoRight

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uhm just in your first paragraph alone . . .
if you are talking about my country, the united states which it seems you are since you mention it . . .Im a christian and Christianity was NEVER "universally accepted" and it is 100% protected in this country. Would you like to try again.

I would like to understand what you meant by this?
When I say "Universally" accepted, I didn't mean "everyone" accepted it or followed it....I meant that American society AS A WHOLE knew it was part of our culture and few challenged things such as the 10 commandments in a courthouse or "In God We Trust" on currency. Today these things are openly challenged. That is what I meant.
 

NoLeftNoRight

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Honestly if you look at American history there was a pattern like this back in the late 1940s, 1950s, 1960s and maybe 1970.
The liberal consensus. Then there was a shift right wards.
This is just a shift back the other way, and who knows.
It's certainly not permanent.

Considering where the nation started and where it is today....I would say the shift has been profound, is accelerating and cannot possibly shift back to anywhere near the original position. Some of which is probably a good thing. But I'm not particularly enjoying this basic lack of respect by a growing segment of the population for themselves or anyone else.

No, I think if you look at the entire curve, the shift is towards the Left (as we still define it today) and more and more away from Conservative values. And I don't think there's a path back.
 

fmw

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It's called progress, and it's inevitable. A stagnating society is a dying society.

We've been dying since the 1960's. It's pretty obvious to us old timers.
 

fmw

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Says every "old timer" when they look back upon their life and where things are "today".

If it is fairly universal among old timers, then perhaps it has some merit.
 

Tigerace117

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Considering where the nation started and where it is today....I would say the shift has been profound, is accelerating and cannot possibly shift back to anywhere near the original position. Some of which is probably a good thing. But I'm not particularly enjoying this basic lack of respect by a growing segment of the population for themselves or anyone else.

No, I think if you look at the entire curve, the shift is towards the Left (as we still define it today) and more and more away from Conservative values. And I don't think there's a path back.

Some people just don't give a damn about people other than themselves. It's a fact of life.
 

Dragonfly

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If it is fairly universal among old timers, then perhaps it has some merit.

If it has been "fairly universal among old timers" for the last few hundred years, while it may have merit for the old timers, does it truly matter to anyone younger?
 

Gaugingcatenate

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History seems to be a series of pendulum swings back and forth. Its like the boom and bust cycle, it seems naturally occurring in systems. The one enduring quality that I see in youth, particularly in the US, is a fierce independence. As opposed to some societies who like to be led, feeling more comfortable having someone else make decisions for them, we Americans do not like to be told what to do, ever.

And so, we rebel against the authority then in power, constantly and cumulatively until there is a change, sometimes abrupt and then a shift, or swing, back the other direction.

I can remember discussing the election of Obama with my fellow teachers, colleague socials studies teachers, public education being a hotbed of liberalism. Was told under no uncertain terms that with both houses of Congress and the executive office being now being held by Democrats, that their was a realignment going on, realignment of a permanent nature. Republicanism and conservativism were already dead if not dying... of course I told them what they should already have figured out having studied history, that it actually does swing back and forth.

And, far more rapidly than I would have imagined, but mostly due to the American people not liking Obamacare being shoved down their throats, there was a huge up-spring in people getting involved at the grass roots level as conservatives. One may remember the Tea Parties. And which way did the next elections go and who has both houses, most the governorships and most of the state legislatures in the country?

Republicans.
 

Cephus

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It's part of the societal life cycle. Conservatism builds societies, liberalism destroys them. We're on the downward slide.
 

Henrin

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Problem with you especially is you want to replace it with nothing... Otherwise known as anarchy.

You should probably stop mixing two different definitions of anarchy. I'm also not an anarchist since I'm not a socialist or a communist that advocates any of their anarchist systems.
 

Socrates1

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The majority of the Conservative base is aging. The majority of the young are being taught and made accustomed to Liberal / Progressive leanings.
Christianity is no longer universally accepted and protected. There is no real resistance from the right to counter these changes.
While the right moans, the Progressives continue to uproot traditional right wing values and replace them with Progressive / Liberal values.
It is a never ending crusade, with no real opposition or resistance. And I don't forsee any.

Liberal / Progressive values are making major inroads in nearly every aspect of American life. If you are left leaning, you probably feel pretty good about Americas current direction.

So it seems fairly comfortable to say that within one or two more generations (assuming the current trajectory continues), the Left will become pretty much mainstream, much as Conservative values were 100 years ago.

Good thing? Bad thing? Will a Liberal Progressive America usher in a new era of brotherhood and harmony? Will a Progressive / Liberal America be a leader in world peace?
How will the world change given the changes to the USA?

I personally find many Progressive and Liberal (assuming they run mostly parallel) values a bit hard to cope with. Socialism, the embracing of homosexuality, relaxed drug use, a position of less military power offset by more social programs and welfare. Whether I like it or not, I may be forced to accept and abide by Progressive and Liberal values as time marches forward.
I can easily see the 2nd amendments last gasps in decades to come. As the courts ween out those with traditional conservative values, in time, it can easily be seen how personal ownership of guns will be outlawed one day. The US Constitution never could defend the rights of People....only People could defend the Constitution and the rights written there. And they aren't.
If you are a true Liberal / Progressive, this is probably excellent and long awaited good news. If you were brought up with traditional values, it probably seems less so.

But what about the changes the Left will make to our economic system? Eventually, a Bernie Sanders probably will get elected and become President. I can see an eventual fracturing of the Progressive / Liberal sides with more moderate Progressives becoming the new "Right wing" pitted against the far Left more radical Progressives. 40 to 80 years from now, political fights and political parties will be contests between shades of Liberalism. Judging by modern Liberals behavior, I can see those being VERY violent times.

Anyway, trying not to judge...just reflecting on it all. I think the USA will be VASTLY different in 100 years.
Hard to say at this point whether it will be better or worse. LOTS more government control over lives. LOTS less small business. MUCH bigger welfare rolls.
Fewer personal liberties. But somehow, maybe that will make for a better society. It's beyond me to see it. I see poverty and hardship on the horizon on scales currently foreign to most Americans.
In a way, I'm glad I won't be here. But then, that's probably just the Conservative side of me lamenting. The Left sure does seem to have an answer for every Right wing argument.

I wish I had a time machine and could travel forward 200, 300, 500 years and see the changes to come.
Does anyone see any other path?
What mechanism could reverse the current trend and push the USA back to the right and towards conservatism? Anything?

I do realize that the USA has had swings from left to right over it's history, but THIS time feels different. It certainly seems as if the trend is certain and unstoppable.
I believe that if Hillary Clinton is elected, that any right wing footholds will be basically lost and our nation will be set permanently on a Left wing / Progressive / Liberal course going forward.
Actually, it already seems that has happened.

A very good indication drugs impair logical thinking ! :lamo
 
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