America is only one of 4 countries that allow post-viability abortion

[minnie616]

As I said before states do not allow abortions after viability except in the extreme cases.


Here is a little info:

Since the death of Dr. Tiller a few years ago there are only 4 doctors in the USA who legally perform abortions after 24 weeks gestation ( which is the limit of viability and towards
the end of the 2ed trimester).

Less than .08 percent of all legal abortions that occur in the USA take place at or after 24 weeks gestation.

These are the extreme cases. The cases where the woman's life or irreparable to major bodily function would take place if the pregnancy were allowed to continue ,when the fetus died a natural death in the womb but failed to expelled naturally, ( yes, when a doctor removes a dead fetus and the fetal material from the womb it is still called an abortion and it is included in the abortion stat numbers ), when a fetus will be stillborn or when the fetus will only live a few minutes or hours.

Kansas was one of only a small handful of states that allowed legal late term abortions back in 2008.
Dr. Tiller was one of 5 doctors who performed late term abortions at that time.
Out of state OB/GYNs who had patients with the late term extreme complications that I mentioned would often send their patients to Dr. Tiller for their late term abortions.

Kansas recorded the numbers of abortions that took place after 22 weeks gestation in 2008.

There were 323 abortions that took place at or after 22 weeks gestation (40 weeks gestation is considered full term)in Kansas in 2008.

192 of those abortions was because the fetus was NOT viable.

It had died in the womb , it would be stillborn, or it was so malformed it would live only a few minutes or hours.
They were not viaible and never had a chance of living.

The other 132 (22 weeks gestation or later ) abortions were because there would be irreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued.

They were extreme cases.

 

[winston53660]

killin' babies is good business
?

really?

Part of the problem is money: Welsh says that workers at abortion clinics can expect to make roughly half what one would make in private practice or at a hospital. (As director, she made less than $60,000 per year). But accepting a lower salary goes along with the larger mission of the work: keeping abortion affordable. “People running these clinics have brains wired for social work and social justice, even though they’re in the medical business,” says Ruth Arick, an abortion care consultant.
Who wants to be an abortion doctor? - Salon.com

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Fetal viability is hardly the last minute.

It is to me. At that point the child can survive without the mother. To kill it is cruel and nothing short of murder.

 

[spud_meister]

Western Australia

That's not a country.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

It is to me. At that point the child can survive without the mother.

It just doesn't make any sense to me!

By that last stage of the game why not just let the little guy or girl finish up get out in the world and have a chance to live its life?

 

[Excon]

The Chinese government today and for quite a long time has not forced abortion. It simply has a law that if you want more than one child, you have to pay a tax to do so. Lots of people in China have more than one child and they pay the tax for each extra they have.

Thank you for elaborating, but it is not "simply" anything.
It is a law that results in forced abortions. Or in other words, forces abortions.

Folks interested in China's One Child Policy can read more at wiki.
One-child policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And read of complaints to the U.N. as well.
UN Complaint Highlights Forced Abortion and Gendercide in China | LifeNews.com

If China did not have this policy to control the Chinese population growth, China would quickly become a threat to all the areas along its borders, because the government would lose control of the population, which would invade nearby space everywhere and create constant war until the killing in war lowered the populations instead.

Yes population control is a good thing and will become the norm as the worlds population increases. That will include governmental forced abortions.


Governmental population control is inevitable. With that will come what some may call extreme measures like forced abortions.
Which just means that the OP's wish, is a pipe dream.

 

[Moot]

killin' babies is good businessI don't know why it is even an issue these days

It is for the gun industry. Gun sales skyrocketed after Sandy Hook.

it is never going to be made illegal much less discouraged
I'm really not concerned with what women do with their lady parts
and I guess I've no choice in whether or not my tax dollars fund this
horrific practice so rock on with your bad selves?

You'r tax dollars don't support abortion. There was a law passed in the mid 1990s that forbids it.

But seriously, abortion after the second trimester I mean c'mon are you nuts?

Would you deny your wife a late term abortion if it was to save her life?

 

[AngryOldGuy]

at around 5 months the doc thought we might be having twins
and ordered an ultrasound nope just one giant boy
a long ways out the doc began letting us know about c-section
at nine months and two weeks we went to the hospital
that kid was 22 inches tall weighed over 13 pounds when I carried him
from the operating room to the baby ward I thought all the other
babies were preemies! When I asked the nurse she said:
um no your kid is the size of a three month old!
Later the doctor admitted that without the c-section he could have never gotten out
and we'd most likely have lost em both, so in a way surgical intervention saved em.

I'm trying to imagine a medical situation where a late term abortion would be necessary
but of course in those rare cases it would be warranted and some stupid law getting
in the way of saving her life would be criminal. I thought most of these procedures were elective?

 

[minnie616]

...

I'm trying to imagine a medical situation where a late term abortion would be necessary
but of course in those rare cases it would be warranted and some stupid law getting
in the way of saving her life would be criminal. I thought most of these procedures were elective?

Toward the beginning of this thread I posted an article where a woman testified that a late term abortion saved her life.
She had been expecting twins one of the died in utero, the other twin was NOT developed enough to be viable but the woman had severe pre Eclampsia. Her liver was shutting down , her platelet count was extremely low and her blood pressure was super high.
If they tried to do a c section she would have bleed to death. If they tried to induce labor she would have had a heart attack.
She needed the pregnancy terminated ....immediately.


Late term abortions are not elective.
States have very strict laws.

Just a small handful of states that allows abortions after viability ( after 24 weeks gestation ) for extreme case pregnancies. A normal pregnancy is 40 weeks gestation.

Kansas was one of the small handful of states that allowed abortions after 24 weeks for extreme cases.
The extreme cases are those cases where the woman's life is at risk or irreparable damage Of a major bodilily function would occur if the pregnancy continued, where the fetus will be still born or where the fetus is so malformed it will either be stillborn or will only live a few minutes or hours.

There are only 4 doctors in the USA who perform abortions after 24 weeks for these extreme case pregnancies.

In 2008 there was a 5 th doctor ... Dr. Tiller who also performed abortions after 24 weeks for these extreme cases.

OBs/GYNsfrom all over the USA would send their patients with these problem pregnancies to Kansas to Dr.Tiller.

In 2008 Kansas kept a record of all abortions that took place at or after 22 weeks gestation.( 24 weeks gestation is the limit of viability ).

There were 323 abortions at or after 22 weeks gestation in Kansas in 2008.

192 of those fetuses was not viable.
They would either be stillborn or were so malformed they would only live a few minutes or hours.

The other 132 abortions were because irreparable damage to a major bodilily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

They were extreme cases.

 

[minnie616]

at around 5 months the doc thought we might be having twins
and ordered an ultrasound nope just one giant boy
a long ways out the doc began letting us know about c-section
at nine months and two weeks we went to the hospital
that kid was 22 inches tall weighed over 13 pounds when I carried him
from the operating room to the baby ward I thought all the other
babies were preemies! When I asked the nurse she said:
um no your kid is the size of a three month old!
Later the doctor admitted that without the c-section he could have never gotten out
and we'd most likely have lost em both, so in a way surgical intervention saved em.

...

Wow, your boy was a big guy.

I am glad everything turned out well for your family.

My third child was way over due when he was born.
Since I was not sure when I became pregnant the doctor took an ultrasound and estimated his due date the end of Jan. but when mid Feb. arrived my doctor induced my labor but had to stop because the labor pains were coming too fast and hard.

To make a long story short ...my water broke on March 2 , the fluid was discolored which indicted the baby was stressed, by the time I got to the hospital they took me right into delivery room, no pain meds, no paper work questions, cord wraped around the babies neck.
Oh and our son weighted 10 pounds ,1 ounce.

People remarked about what a big boy he was and my husband's reply was that he was a month old on the day he was born. :lol:

 

[AngryOldGuy]

minnie I'm so happy for you as I read your post I felt the tension rising in my chest
it took no more than a second and a half but I was getting ready to be sad then blammo
a happy end whew that was a close one If I have any regrets in life it is that one day when
my wife who was 36 at the time said 'lets have another child' and I said no. (17 years ago)
kids are wonderful, my mom was a lifelong atheist and raised me that way she told me once:
'I will live on through you', as she was dying in hospice the thing that seemed to bring her the
most joy was seeing my son her only grandchild.
I vividly recall her feelings back in 73 regarding Roe v Wade she told me: this is only supposed
to happen in the first trimester and has all these restrictions on it, you wait and see it's the camel's nose in the tent.

Over the last 40 years what she foretold has come to pass. My view on the matter crystallized that day my son was born.
It's legal, women can choose it but it doesn't make it right.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

pre Eclampsia

as I typed my earlier post that was the term that came to mind.
323 vs the other zillion that were purely elective?!? Those are in no way related to those special cases and any nutjob that would seek
to interfere and basically kill the mother for no good reason should be locked up for the good of society.
But aren't there many elective abortions performed beyond 13 weeks?

 

[minnie616]

as I typed my earlier post that was the term that came to mind.
323 vs the other zillion that were purely elective?!? Those are in no way related to those special cases and any nutjob that would seek
to interfere and basically kill the mother for no good reason should be locked up for the good of society.
But aren't there many elective abortions performed beyond 13 weeks?

The 2009 stats from the CDC reported that in the USA 91 percent all abortions were during the first trimester
(13 weeks gestation).

Abortions that take place after 13 weeks gestation are often because of fetal abnormalities or severe fetal or genetic abnormalities.

I had a miscarriage at 20 weeks gestation. I accidentally saw the fetus and it was very malformed.
If my body had not naturally expelled that fetus after it died within me I would have needed to have an abortion to keep from getting a life threatening infection.

That is why I fully support allowing the doctor to determine if an abortion is needed after the first trimester.

 

[AngryOldGuy]

That is why I fully support allowing the doctor to determine if an abortion is needed after the first trimester.

That only seems prudent not some folks in robes or worse yet worthless politicians

 

[notquiteright]

The first few words are hyperlinked . Connecting those two items makes no sense. That's like a 2nd Amendment advocate stating that he'd be fine with decriminalizing manslaughter in the advent of an increase in gun sale regulation. Interesting. Would you have applied a similar approach (for example) to the Abolitionists? That being said, I have indeed proposed ensuring that we take care of kids - even Milton Friedman said we had a social duty to do that.

You dodged the point- are you trying to say 14 weeks is the viable threshold?

Your analogy is flawed beyond repair- the current LEGAL time limit on abortions is more than 14 weeks. The proper analogy is if the 'gun' grabbers passed legislation restricting gun sales to 3 maybe 4 sites per state, Limit the store hours, demand a series of hoops to be jumped through to include a mandatory film where horrible gun shot wounds are seen and a mandatory waiting period after the film....

I doubt any 2nd A supporter would care for that.

Now how do you plan on financing 'taking care of these kids'? Drastically cut the military budget? Take the children away from their parents and have huge government run orphanages?

We do not have a social duty to every fertilized egg...

 

[mac]

And join Iran, Russia, El Salvador and other enlightened countries

Actually, countries like Germany and Italy have far more restrictive laws on abortion than we do. Good attempt at hyperbole, though.

 

[AGENT J]

The USA does not allow abortion on demand after viability.


Less than .1 percent of legal abortions that take place in USA occur after viability.
They are the extreme cases.
The cases where the womans life or irreparable damage to a major bodiliy function would occur if the pregnancy continued or where the fetus would be stillborn or is so malformed it would only live a few minutes or hours.

from the following article:
HOw a late term abortion saved my life:


read more:

How a Late-Term Abortion Saved My Life

Minnie!!!!

dont use facts to destroy a failed, hyperbolic, post of an intellectual dishonest article, that's not fair.

 

[choiceone]

Thank you for elaborating, but it is not "simply" anything.
It is a law that results in forced abortions. Or in other words, forces abortions.

Folks interested in China's One Child Policy can read more at wiki.
One-child policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And read of complaints to the U.N. as well.
UN Complaint Highlights Forced Abortion and Gendercide in China | LifeNews.com

Hey, I'm not suggesting that the implementation of the policy is good, just that the recent policy has not been what you say. Your first link itself clarifies that people who want more than one child can have one even if they do not fit the excepted categories if they pay the fines. I have had a number of friends and apartmentmates from various areas in China who were studying here. They all agreed that a couple has to pay a fine for each child beyond one, but their parents just paid the fines one or two times to have families with two or three kids.

This by no means prevents people in petty positions of power in the system from behaving atrociously, as your second link in particular shows, but this atrocious behavior is not part of the national policy. The law may result in forced abortions, but they are illegal. Forced abortion has been illegal in China for some time, and another example in your second link, family planning officials running over a live born infant with a car, is obviously a crime. Your second link, which comes from a very biased "pro-life" site, does not clarify that the behavior it notes was illegal and punished, but rather presents it as if it were actually part of the national policy. I already knew of some of the cases in the link, which were huge highly public scandals in China. In one case I particularly remember, of forced late abortion, the national government was overtly furious, went on a news tirade, investigated the medical people immediately, and tried and punished them severely. Don't mistake a bunch of criminal doctors and petty officials for a national government.

As for gendercide, the government itself long ago recognized the problem of people aborting female embryos and fetuses because they wanted sons. This is just the more recent version of traditional Chinese female infanticide, which was not that uncommon in the early twentieth century. The national government made serious efforts to combat the tendency to abort females. It is illegal in China for doctors to tell prospective parents the gender of the child based on a sonogram. The government guarantees parents who have only one female child that she will have special consideration and guarantees regarding better education. Etc.

Yes population control is a good thing and will become the norm as the worlds population increases. That will include governmental forced abortions.


Governmental population control is inevitable. With that will come what some may call extreme measures like forced abortions.
Which just means that the OP's wish, is a pipe dream.

I actually do think that population control is inevitable, but that it does not have to include forced abortions. As contraceptives improve, that is going to be the big solution, though the Catholic church will fight it, of course. But if we do not get the world population under control, and eventually our own, an increase in violent crime, war, disease, and famine will control it for us.

 

[Excon]

Hey, I'm not suggesting that the implementation of the policy is good,

All I am saying is things like this are inevitable.

just that the recent policy has not been what you say. Your first link itself clarifies that people who want more than one child can have one even if they do not fit the excepted categories if they pay the fines. I have had a number of friends and apartmentmates from various areas in China who were studying here. They all agreed that a couple has to pay a fine for each child beyond one, but their parents just paid the fines one or two times to have families with two or three kids.

I think you are confused.
Their law does lead to forced abortions.
There is no two ways about it.
Even though it doesn't say that specifically, you can damn well be certain it was intended to do just that.
As the choices (cough), are limited if you can not afford it.

It is called population control for a reason.

This by no means prevents people in petty positions of power in the system from behaving atrociously, as your second link in particular shows, but this atrocious behavior is not part of the national policy. The law may result in forced abortions, but they are illegal. Forced abortion has been illegal in China for some time, and another example in your second link, family planning officials running over a live born infant with a car, is obviously a crime. Your second link, which comes from a very biased "pro-life" site, does not clarify that the behavior it notes was illegal and punished, but rather presents it as if it were actually part of the national policy. I already knew of some of the cases in the link, which were huge highly public scandals in China. In one case I particularly remember, of forced late abortion, the national government was overtly furious, went on a news tirade, investigated the medical people immediately, and tried and punished them severely. Don't mistake a bunch of criminal doctors and petty officials for a national government.

:doh
Oy vey!
The lack of funds leads to only one choice.
As there is only one choice, it is forced, as there is no choice.
Or if you like, coerced. Same damn thing.
And that is legal and has nothing to do with overzealous officials or crimes.

I actually do think that population control is inevitable, but that it does not have to include forced abortions.

You must think that the government will allow unintended pregnancies to continue without intervention. If it reaches this point of control, I seriously doubt they would allow it.

 

[cpwill]

You dodged the point- are you trying to say 14 weeks is the viable threshold?

Your analogy is flawed beyond repair- the current LEGAL time limit on abortions is more than 14 weeks. The proper analogy is if the 'gun' grabbers passed legislation restricting gun sales to 3 maybe 4 sites per state, Limit the store hours, demand a series of hoops to be jumped through to include a mandatory film where horrible gun shot wounds are seen and a mandatory waiting period after the film....

...then we would call that place "Chicago". and your connection would remain wrong, because legalizing violent acts due to an increase in regulation of their enablers is logically incoherent.

Now how do you plan on financing 'taking care of these kids'? Drastically cut the military budget? Take the children away from their parents and have huge government run orphanages?

A negative income tax that brings every single child in America up above the poverty threshold, to be financed through tax rate consolidation.

We do not have a social duty to every fertilized egg...

We are bound to recognize that our rights do not extend to the ability to strip away the rights (including the right to life) of anyone at any stage of development for our convenience. Our social duties extend to taking care of the poor no matter how old they are.

 

[choiceone]

...then we would call that place "Chicago". and your connection would remain wrong, because legalizing violent acts due to an increase in regulation of their enablers is logically incoherent.



A negative income tax that brings every single child in America up above the poverty threshold, to be financed through tax rate consolidation.



We are bound to recognize that our rights do not extend to the ability to strip away the rights (including the right to life) of anyone at any stage of development for our convenience. Our social duties extend to taking care of the poor no matter how old they are.

Human zygotes, morulae, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses are not legally persons. Their personhood has never been established, but women are persons who have an equal right to be free of unreasonable searches. You simply want the state to have the right to search the woman's person by pregnancy test and the right to search her private medical records so that you can force women to give birth if they become pregnant and punish them if they have abortions. That is sick.

 

[cpwill]

Human zygotes, morulae, blastocysts, embryos, and fetuses are not legally persons.

:shrug: I'm aware that we currently do not recognize the rights of the unborn. Two centuries ago we didn't recognize the rights of American Indians, or Blacks. Like the unborn, we dehumanized them as well in order to justify what we did to them. But the trend of history is away from mass violence against other human beings, and infanticide is accordingly receding, having gone through an adjustment phase of moving to pre-birth.

You simply want the state to have the right to search the woman's person by pregnancy test and the right to search her private medical records so that you can force women to give birth if they become pregnant and punish them if they have abortions. That is sick.

:roll:

A hint for you: hyperbolic and abusive strawmen arguments say more about you than they do about the person you are directing them towards. If you are going to debate someone, you should try to find out what it is exactly that they are saying before you accuse them of being evil because they come to different conclusions than yourself.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

You simply want the state to have the right to search the woman's person by pregnancy test and the right to search her private medical records so that you can force women to give birth if they become pregnant and punish them if they have abortions. That is sick.

This is hyperbolic garbage. If abortion were illegal you wouldn't have to have brown shirted storm troopers checking every vagina in America, you'd just have to make it illegal for doctors to perform it. You really weaken your case (even more) when you make up such ridiculous statements.

And join Iran, Russia, El Salvador and other enlightened countries

Actually, the US has more liberal abortion policies than all but a handful of countries. Most of europe is FAR more restrictive than us, so I think you've shown your ignorance again.

 

[Bodi]

How dare you say we can kill a mosquito sucking blood out of us but we can't kill something else doing the samething!

That is one particularly ignorant way to look at it... :lol:

 

[GEIxBattleRifle]

That is one particularly ignorant way to look at it... :lol:

Or how about the case with lampreys who attach themselves to you while you're swimming?