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America’s Blue-Red Divide Is About to Get Starker

NWRatCon

NWRatCon

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I've been in a number of discussions regarding the divergence of "Red" and "Blue" America, here and elsewhere. Just this week, the leak of the Dobbs draft opinion has reinvigorated the debate.

America’s Blue-Red Divide Is About to Get Starker (Atlantic)​

"As abortion rights are rolled back in certain states, the gap between the country’s two dominant political coalitions will widen."

As with just about every current issue, there is a stark divergence of opinion between "conservative" America, and "liberal" America. But, having studied the circumstances, this is really a matter of geography and demographics as much as politics, and that is why it is such a tough nut to crack. I agree with the conclusion that the divide is about to get starker, but there is so much to it. In a 2020 study, UNLV produced
Blue Metros, Red States: America's Suburbs and the New Battleground in Presidential Politics (UNLV).

From the latter, there is this graphic
countycartrb512.png

I know it looks weird, but it illustrates just how intransigent the issue is. What it represents is where the Republican and Democratic votes are, and their relative strength. Blue States have large conservative voting blocks, and even in the Reddest of Red States (with a few exceptions), there are large bastions of Democratic voters - Bozeman, Montana; Austin and Houston, Texas; Memphis and Nashville, Tennessee; Kansas City and St. Louis, Missouri. What is also points out is, Red State, Blue City: How the Urban-Rural Divide Is Splitting America (Atlantic).

Given that, how do we divvy up the country? "Partisan lines that once fell along regional borders can increasingly be found at the county level. What does that mean for the future of the United States?"

Even in my county and State, the rural/urban divide is pretty profound. In Washington, 3/4 of the population lives along the I-5 corridor, but that represents only 1/3 of the State's geography. East Pierce and King County doesn't resemble the West side (where Tacoma and Seattle are) at all. The 2020 election results are instructive: Joe Biden won Washington 58.4% to 39 percent, but only 10 of 39 counties. The same trend applies all over the country. "The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

What Dobbs will potentially bring to the fore is the vicious and visceral divide between politicians and their constituents, and between the rural, urban, suburban and exurban areas. People are going to feel trapped in foreign territory, no matter which side of the divide they reside on.
 
That's great news!

Why not make it legal?

The blue states can be one independent nation.

The red states another.

Finally, people will be allowed to live with other people of similar political & cultural values.

Let people live in New York City, for example, with all of its disgusting and sickening crime.

And let other people live in some red state where they still execute bad people.

A win-win for everyone!
 
NWRatCon said:
I've been in a number of discussions regarding the divergence of "Red" and "Blue" America, here and elsewhere. Just this week, the leak of the Dobbs draft opinion has reinvigorated the debate.

America’s Blue-Red Divide Is About to Get Starker (Atlantic)​

"As abortion rights are rolled back in certain states, the gap between the country’s two dominant political coalitions will widen."

As with just about every current issue, there is a stark divergence of opinion between "conservative" America, and "liberal" America. But, having studied the circumstances, this is really a matter of geography and demographics as much as politics, and that is why it is such a tough nut to crack. I agree with the conclusion that the divide is about to get starker, but there is so much to it. In a 2020 study, UNLV produced
Blue Metros, Red States: America's Suburbs and the New Battleground in Presidential Politics (UNLV).

From the latter, there is this graphic
countycartrb512.png

I know it looks weird, but it illustrates just how intransigent the issue is. What it represents is where the Republican and Democratic votes are, and their relative strength. Blue States have large conservative voting blocks, and even in the Reddest of Red States (with a few exceptions), there are large bastions of Democratic voters - Bozeman, Montana; Austin and Houston, Texas; Memphis and Nashville, Tennessee; Kansas City and St. Louis, Missouri. What is also points out is, Red State, Blue City: How the Urban-Rural Divide Is Splitting America (Atlantic).

Given that, how do we divvy up the country? "Partisan lines that once fell along regional borders can increasingly be found at the county level. What does that mean for the future of the United States?"

Even in my county and State, the rural/urban divide is pretty profound. In Washington, 3/4 of the population lives along the I-5 corridor, but that represents only 1/3 of the State's geography. East Pierce and King County doesn't resemble the West side (where Tacoma and Seattle are) at all. The 2020 election results are instructive: Joe Biden won Washington 58.4% to 39 percent, but only 10 of 39 counties. The same trend applies all over the country. "The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

What Dobbs will potentially bring to the fore is the vicious and visceral divide between politicians and their constituents, and between the rural, urban, suburban and exurban areas. People are going to feel trapped in foreign territory, no matter which side of the divide they reside on.
Click to expand...
You do not offer a compelling argument.

It would be difficult to get more divided than in 2020 when Democrats supported the burning of whole neighborhoods while impeaching a President with no reason more than he was a jerk.
 
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

TheParser said:
That's great news!

Why not make it legal?

The blue states can be one independent nation.

The red states another.

Finally, people will be allowed to live with other people of similar political & cultural values.

Let people live in New York City, for example, with all of its disgusting and sickening crime.

And let other people live in some red state where they still execute bad people.

A win-win for everyone!
Click to expand...
Red states will never secede or become a country because they depend tremendous on financial support from the fed. If Mississipi, Arkansas, West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana and Tennessee join a new Red country, who the hell is going to support them?
 
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

Where is this from? It's an excellent quote.
 
The red are minority, period. most people live in blue and are not Taliban like the republican party is. The system is rigged to give more representation tot he minority, particularly senate. Plus, republicans work hard to make it hard to vote and their fear and hate mongering are a strong motivator
Loulit01 said:
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

Where is this from? It's an excellent quote.
Click to expand...

Just like education. Becuase you live in cities you actually know, work, play and live beside people of all walks of life. Not a bubble of only like minded people. So its easier to have empathy
 
NWRatCon said:
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

What Dobbs will potentially bring to the fore is the vicious and visceral divide between politicians and their constituents, and between the rural, urban, suburban and exurban areas. People are going to feel trapped in foreign territory, no matter which side of the divide they reside on.
Click to expand...

I am no sociologist, but one thing that's interesting is that there is also another, parallel divide here: and that's education level. That's something that can be addressed. Maybe the kind of critical thinking skills and openness to new ideas and new ways of seeing and doing things that come from a college education might help convince some of these more sheltered rural voters to see past their small, provincial concerns into the bigger, wider world. They might see there is more to the world than just their trusty shotgun and pickup truck. Maybe then they won't be as easily riled up by wily politicians promising to protect them from those "scary outsiders" and new ways of seeing and doing things, to understand how economics and politics really work, to be open to retraining as old jobs become obsolete and new opportunities open up, etc...

So it's no wonder that conservatives undervalue public education and higher education so much- education to them must be like sunlight on vampires and witches- they will scowl and scream in pain and want it to go away. They call it "liberal indoctrination" to even teach basic evolutionary biology, how the founding fathers were not Bible-thumping Evangelicals wanting the US to be some Christian Republic, or the historical impact of racism on contemporary law and institutions. Maybe the strategy of liberals should really be focusing on making higher education more accessible to these rural voters to get rid of these fundamental misunderstandings and ignorance.

These rural areas are getting increasingly sparsely populated anyway. Many young people are leaving these places to move to the cities where all the jobs and opportunities are. But still, I think there can be huge benefits from making such higher education accessible for the folks still left behind.
 
Loulit01 said:
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."


Red states will never secede or become a country because they depend tremendous on financial support from the fed. If Mississipi, Arkansas, West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana and Tennessee join a new Red country, who the hell is going to support them?
Click to expand...
Give them a chance.

They might surprise you.

So many people might move there that there would be an economic boom.
 
Loulit01 said:
The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."


Red states will never secede or become a country because they depend tremendous on financial support from the fed. If Mississipi, Arkansas, West Virginia, Alabama, Louisiana and Tennessee join a new Red country, who the hell is going to support them?
Click to expand...
They would have to support themselves, of course. Its you leftists who support a massive federal welfare state then turn around and complain about the way it pays out benefits.
 
NWRatCon said:
I've been in a number of discussions regarding the divergence of "Red" and "Blue" America, here and elsewhere. Just this week, the leak of the Dobbs draft opinion has reinvigorated the debate.

America’s Blue-Red Divide Is About to Get Starker (Atlantic)​

"As abortion rights are rolled back in certain states, the gap between the country’s two dominant political coalitions will widen."

As with just about every current issue, there is a stark divergence of opinion between "conservative" America, and "liberal" America. But, having studied the circumstances, this is really a matter of geography and demographics as much as politics, and that is why it is such a tough nut to crack. I agree with the conclusion that the divide is about to get starker, but there is so much to it. In a 2020 study, UNLV produced
Blue Metros, Red States: America's Suburbs and the New Battleground in Presidential Politics (UNLV).

From the latter, there is this graphic
countycartrb512.png

I know it looks weird, but it illustrates just how intransigent the issue is. What it represents is where the Republican and Democratic votes are, and their relative strength. Blue States have large conservative voting blocks, and even in the Reddest of Red States (with a few exceptions), there are large bastions of Democratic voters - Bozeman, Montana; Austin and Houston, Texas; Memphis and Nashville, Tennessee; Kansas City and St. Louis, Missouri. What is also points out is, Red State, Blue City: How the Urban-Rural Divide Is Splitting America (Atlantic).

Given that, how do we divvy up the country? "Partisan lines that once fell along regional borders can increasingly be found at the county level. What does that mean for the future of the United States?"

Even in my county and State, the rural/urban divide is pretty profound. In Washington, 3/4 of the population lives along the I-5 corridor, but that represents only 1/3 of the State's geography. East Pierce and King County doesn't resemble the West side (where Tacoma and Seattle are) at all. The 2020 election results are instructive: Joe Biden won Washington 58.4% to 39 percent, but only 10 of 39 counties. The same trend applies all over the country. "The difference is no longer about where people live, it's about how people live: in spread-out, open, low-density privacy -- or amid rough-and-tumble, in-your-face population density and diverse communities that enforce a lower-common denominator of tolerance among inhabitants.

The voting data suggest that people don't make cities liberal -- cities make people liberal."

What Dobbs will potentially bring to the fore is the vicious and visceral divide between politicians and their constituents, and between the rural, urban, suburban and exurban areas. People are going to feel trapped in foreign territory, no matter which side of the divide they reside on.
Click to expand...
Assuming abortion rates as a major concern this may be true, but it rarely makes the top of the list on the electorate's priorities.
 
A good example of how education can help get conservatives beyond their provincialism, ignorance, and prejudices, from a college professor who has obviously had a lot of experience with such students.

"It seems to me that the regulative idea that we – we wet liberals, we heirs of the Enlightenment, we Socratists – most frequently use to criticize the conduct of various conversational partners is that of ‘needing education in order to outgrow their primitive fear, hatreds, and superstitions’. This is the concept the victorious Allied armies used when they set about re-educating the citizens of occupied Germany and Japan. It is also the one which was used by American schoolteachers who had read Dewey and were concerned to get students to think ‘scientifically’ and ‘rationally’ about such matters as the origin of the species and sexual behavior. It is a concept which I, like most Americans who teach humanities or social science in colleges and universities, invoke when we try to arrange things so that students who enter as bigoted, homophobic, religious fundamentalists will leave college with views more like our own...The fundamentalist parents of our fundamentalist students think that the entire “American liberal Establishment” is engaged in a conspiracy.

The parents have a point. Their point is that we liberal teachers no more feel in a symmetrical communication situation when we talk with bigots than do kindergarten teachers talking with their students. […] When we American college teachers encounter
religious fundamentalists, we do not consider the possibility of reformulating our own practices of justification so as to give more weight to the authority of the Christian scriptures. Instead, we do our best to convince these students of the benefits of secularization. We assign first-person accounts of growing up homosexual to our homophobic students for the same reasons that German schoolteachers in the postwar period assigned The Diary of Anne Frank. The racist or fundamentalist parents of our students[…] will protest that these books are being jammed down their children’s throats. I cannot see how to reply to their charges without saying something like “There are credentials for admission to our democratic society […]. You have to be educated in order to be … a participant in our conversation … So we are going to go right on trying to discredit you in the eyes of your children, trying to strip your fundamentalist religious community of dignity, trying to make your views seem silly rather than discussable. We are not so inclusivist as to tolerate intolerance such as yours.”
-the late Richard Rorty, professor emeritus of philosophy and humanities at Stanford University, and former chair of the American Philosophical Association
 
Fletch said:
They would have to support themselves, of course. Its you leftists who support a massive federal welfare state then turn around and complain about the way it pays out benefits.
Click to expand...
If they can support themselves, tell them to do it now. LOL
 
Fletch said:
They would have to support themselves, of course. Its you leftists who support a massive federal welfare state then turn around and complain about the way it pays out benefits.
Click to expand...

OK, we can start with these Trump supporters- because, you see, it's only socialism or pedophilia if it helps others. It's All-American if it's helping them.

 
Jay59 said:
Democrats supported the burning of whole neighborhoods while impeaching a President with no reason more than he was a jerk.
Click to expand...

The above is your version of a compelling argument.
 
ataraxia said:
OK, we can start with these Trump supporters- because, you see, it's only socialism or pedophilia if it helps others. It's All-American if it's helping them.

Click to expand...

Thats stupid.
 
Loulit01 said:
At the moment I'm saying red states recieve more in government handouts than people do.
Click to expand...
Are you saying those state handouts dont go to people?
 
ataraxia said:
The fundamentalist parents of our fundamentalist students think that the entire “American liberal Establishment” is engaged in a conspiracy.
Click to expand...

For the past twenty years BILLIONS have been spent, perhaps even TENS of billions, to ensure that the above is set in stone and viewed as being every bit as infallible as a Papal Bull is to devout Catholics.
To question the notion that the “American liberal Establishment” is engaged in a conspiracy, is grounds for excommunication.
Even when they preach the teachings of Jesus, the idea of either listening or forgiving a skeptic is unthinkable.
 
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