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Alternate History - WWII

Thank you for trying to get this thread back on track

Now as to your assessment I don't think it was possible the German supply lines were stretched to the max, they were stopped as much by logistics as anything else. Further advances would just have made the situation worse. Although if all three of what you said happened. Moscow, Leningrad and Caucasus, then perhaps it would have changed the course of the war. Just one of them by itself wouldn't have.

Oh yes, don't get me wrong I don't think they had the capacity to stretch a serious offensive into the trans-Caucasian region, or to push to the Ural's or anything like that. I was just commenting on the hypothetical that if somehow the German victories had been so complete as to allow for these things to occur I think the fall of the Soviet government was a definite possibility.

The most realistic situation I could imagine is one where the Germans manage to seize Moscow, they manage to firmly hold onto Rostov and actually round the Azov, and tighten their grip on Leningrad. Change the timescales of the invasion, a few variables, and this more limited range of objectives I think becomes possible. The question for me is what a strong German campaigning position combined with the fall of Moscow would have done to the Soviet government. The only plausible route to a German victory barring a completely counter-factual invasion of the Soviet Union was a psychological and political victory. I think even the fall of Moscow (in conjunction with a moderately improved spring campaigning position) might have been enough to see Stalin ousted or a serious disintegration of Soviet command and control.
 
Oh yes, don't get me wrong I don't think they had the capacity to stretch a serious offensive into the trans-Caucasian region, or to push to the Ural's or anything like that. I was just commenting on the hypothetical that if somehow the German victories had been so complete as to allow for these things to occur I think the fall of the Soviet government was a definite possibility.

The most realistic situation I could imagine is one where the Germans manage to seize Moscow, they manage to firmly hold onto Rostov and actually round the Azov, and tighten their grip on Leningrad. Change the timescales of the invasion, a few variables, and this more limited range of objectives I think becomes possible. The question for me is what a strong German campaigning position combined with the fall of Moscow would have done to the Soviet government. The only plausible route to a German victory barring a completely counter-factual invasion of the Soviet Union was a psychological and political victory. I think even the fall of Moscow (in conjunction with a moderately improved spring campaigning position) might have been enough to see Stalin ousted or a serious disintegration of Soviet command and control.

Possibly but I don't think so, Russian Hatred for Germans was very strong and a major rally point. I don't think capturing Moscow would have been a devastating political blow to Stalin. It would have been a major blow but I don't think enough to topple him. Still this is what if so any answer is possible (well almost any some are to silly to imagine)
 
Actually, that's against the law here. We arrest people and then we have trials. You might find this hard to believe, but sometimes black people actually kill white people, too. It's good to know that apparently they've eradicated that sort of stuff in Israel/Russia/UK.

And congratulations on informing the world that Communism was actually good for Russia. It must be why it was so readily embraced by Eastern Europe after the Second World War. Well, that and thousands of Russian tanks and hundreds of thousands of Russian soldiers.

But hey, the Russian Communist guy likes you, so you must be doing something right.

I'm far from being a communist - I just don't like when people spout bs about things they don't know nothing about, especially when it's related to Russia or Israel.

Btw you didn't answer the question, i'd even highlight the question part for ya; When Americans are gonna stop beating and killing blacks on the streets?



PS. I know that it's hard to read sarcasm online but really :lamo - do you think that a normal person would actually ask a question like the one I posed above?!?!?

It's just me paraphrasing an excerpt from a old joke;

"The 60's-
An Armenian radio host receives a question from the US,
Can a simple engineer in the USSR buy a car?
The Armenian radio host after thinking for quite a bit, finally replies -
And...and...you still lynch blacks"


So...if you still don't get it, i"ll explain it slowly - my "question" was/is ridiculous as were your obviously very knowledgeable questions in your previous post.

Fallen
 
Emotional feelings about the war, especially when you are from the country in question can cloud your answer. The morale of Soviet troops in 1941 had plummeted and only supreme exhortation and organizational efforts had managed to keep major military formations together. The critical victory in front of Moscow was achieved by utilizing unbloodied troops from Central Asia and Siberia. If you had suffered a series of further defeats that included the loss of the capital, the destruction of the Soviet army group in Leningrad, and the collapse of Soviet defenses in the Caucuses I think the Soviets would have been hard pressed to re-establish a solid position west of Kazan. Politically and socially it would have been catastrophic.

Everyone likes to think their country is capable of inhuman feats of resistance, and some peoples have gone farther than others. But everyone has a breaking point, especially when it comes to faith in your government dictatorship or not.

Unbloodied squad appeared after the order of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR number 227 of July 28, 1942. Order was called "not a step back." The main points of the order: a) definitely eliminate the mood of retreat in the armed forces and the iron fist stop the propaganda that we can and should ostensibly to retreat further east, that of the derogation will cause no harm;\\\ в) far removed from his post and send to the military to bring to justice the army commanders who committed troop withdrawals from occupied positions, without an order from the Front command.\\\ с) Form within the front from 1 to 3 (depending on the situation) penal battalions (of 800 people), which guide the secondary and senior commanders and commissars of all relevant arms, guilty of a breach of discipline due to cowardice or instability, and put them on more difficult parts the front to give them an opportunity to redeem the blood of his crimes against the Motherland.\\\ d) Form within 3-5 army of well-armed defensive squads (200 men each) and put them directly behind unstable divisions and oblige them in case of panic and disorderly retreat parts division shoot panic-mongers and cowards and thus help fulfill the honest soldiers divisions their duty to their country;\\\ е) Form within the army from 5 to 10 (depending on the situation) penal companies (150 to 200 people each), where ordinary soldiers and junior commanders guilty of misconduct by cowardice or instability, and put them on the difficult sections of the army, to give them the opportunity to atone for the blood of his crimes against the Motherland.\\\ f) far removed from their posts of commanders and commissars of regiments and battalions, allowed unauthorized departure parts without an order from the commander of the corps or division, to take away their medals and sent to the war front tips for court martial: As can be seen from the order, near Moscow had not yet been defensive squads.
 
Possibly but I don't think so, Russian Hatred for Germans was very strong and a major rally point. I don't think capturing Moscow would have been a devastating political blow to Stalin. It would have been a major blow but I don't think enough to topple him. Still this is what if so any answer is possible (well almost any some are to silly to imagine)

In his memoirs, Otto Skorzeny (they were published in abridged form. Often without the first 150 pages. But you can find the complete edition) wrote about the reasons defeat near Moscow (where he was a member of the SS Division "Reich", which was part tank Group of Guderian.): "Giant purge of the military carried out after such a mass executions of politicians misled not only Heydrich and Schellenberg. Our political intelligence was convinced that we have achieved a decisive victory, the same view was taken by Hitler. However, the Red Army, contrary to popular belief, was not weakened, but strengthened ... Posts repressed commanders of armies, corps, divisions, brigades, regiments and battalions took the young officers - ideological communists. After an all-out cleaning in 1937, a new, political Russian army that can move the most brutal battles. Russian generals obeyed the orders and do not engage in conspiracies and betrayal, as is often the case with us in the highest positions". So the fall of 1941, when the Germans were near Moscow, the Red Army no was a conspiracy of generals. And in the Wehrmacht in three years was. Although to Berlin at the time was much more. It is impossible to imagine that Stalin blew up one of their "own" in the Kremlin as it tried to do with the beloved Fuhrer in Wolfsan Colonel Stauffenberg.
Skorzeny directly suspects head of German military intelligence, Admiral Canaris in secret work for the British. It Kanaris convinced Hitler in the summer of 1940 that the landing in Britain is impossible: "July 7, he sent a secret report to Keitel, in which he stated that the Germans are set down in England, await 2 divisions of the first line of defense, and 19 reserve divisions. The British at that time had only one ready for combat unit - the 3rd Division of General Montgomery. General recalls in his memoirs ... From the very beginning of the war and in the decisive moments of Canaris acted as a most formidable opponent in Germany". "I talked to Canaris three or four times - says Skorzeny - and he no gave me the impression of being extremely tactful or clever as some write about it. He never said directly, was tricky and confusing, but it's not the same thing. Abwehr never informed nothing really important and significant". This is one of the most common complaints of the great saboteur, "We did not know that in the Russian war with Finland did not use the best soldiers and outdated equipment. We did not realize that their hard-won victory over the brave Finnish army was just a bluff. We are talking about hiding a huge force that can attack and defend, which Canaris, the head of intelligence, the Wehrmacht, had something to know. " Skorzeny hit "gorgeous T-34." "The German anti-tank guns, it is easy to destroy tanks of the T-26 and BT, were powerless against the new T-34, which suddenly appeared from wheat and rye. "Faust bullets" came much later, so the first campaign of some Russian tanks restrained by direct fire only our heavy artillery. " Skorzeny about German engineering; "In 1941 every German car company continued to produce various models of the mark in the same way as before the war. A large number of models are not allowed to create an appropriate stock of spare parts. In the motorized divisions was approximately 2,000 vehicles sometimes 50 different makes and models, even though it would be enough 10-18. In addition, our artillery regiment possessed more than 200 trucks, presented 15 models. In the rain, in the mud or in the cold, even the best expert could not provide quality repairs". To the German army approached Moscow is exhausted:"19 October torrential rains began, and Army Group "Center" for three days stuck in the mud ... The picture was terrible: stretched for hundreds of kilometers column technique where three rows of thousands of cars were bogged down in the mud sometimes hood. There was a shortage of gasoline and ammunition. Providing an average of 200 tons per division, delivered by air. Were lost three precious weeks and a huge amount of material means ... The price of hard toil and effort, we have managed to build 15 kilometers of road from logs ... We dreamed to quickly become cold". "Unpleasant surprise - at Borodino the first time we had to fight with Siberians. This tall, excellent soldiers, well armed, and they are dressed in fur coats and wide caps on the legs - fur boots. " Otto Skorzeny: "The strategy of the war, Reich was better, our generals had a strong imagination. However, since the ordinary soldier and up to the company commander, Russian were equal to us - brave, resourceful, talented camoufleur. They fiercely resisted and were always ready to sacrifice his life ... Russian officers from the division commander and below were younger and resolute. From October 9 to December 5 Division "Reich", the 10th Armored Division and other parts of the 16th Panzer Corps lost 40 percent of full-time staff. Six days later, when our positions were attacked by newcomers Siberian divisions, our losses exceeded 75 percent. " Almost the main reason for the defeat of the German army said Skorzeny gorgeous Russian intelligence. "The Red Chapel" - spy network in Europe, most of the diehard anti-Nazis - let the Soviet General Staff to have information about the strategic intentions of the Germans. He remembers about the superspy Richard Sorge, thanks to the information on which that Japan did not enter the war appeared near Moscow 40 divisions transferred from the Far East. This is the answer to the question why they did not take Moscow. Germans just crushed. Skorzeny himself no longer fought on the front. How no stupid man, he realized that the chances of survival in this meat grinder is minimal, and took the opportunity to join the service in the SS commando unit. But at best it is no longer drawn - Dictators steal much nicer and safer than face to face with Siberians in boots, warring with the support of the T-34 and the world's best intelligence.
 
Alternate History : Operation Downfall
779px-Operation_Downfall_-_Map.jpg

The Allied plan to invade mainland Japan.

The Japanese could guess the Allied plans pretty well, but the Allies did have air superiority, naval superiority, and were not backed against a wall.

Two sides would enter, only one would emerge with a complete victory.


1. Did the Allies have the resources to do this?

2. How many casualties would result on both sides?

3. Would Japan be able to be completely taken over?

4. Would the world of not entered the age of nuclear weapons as fast?

5. What position would the Soviet Union take in this Operation?

It's up to you to decide. My answers will come later.
 
The answer to your questions are as follows:

1. Yes.

2. Perhaps as many as 100,000 dead on the allied side - and that may be conservative given the experience on Okinawa. A lot more on the Japanese side, again using Okinawa as a barometer.

3. Yes, eventually.

4. Probably not.

5. They would have probably opposed it, but it would have been irrelevant. They certainly couldn't have invaded Japan for the same reason the Germans couldn't have invaded England in 1940.
 
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You are wrong in what could be an uprising against Stalin. In reality, the soldiers of the Red Army went on the enemy with the words - "For the Motherland. For the Stalin." You also do not take into account the guerrillas. Although, if the Germans had won on the eastern front, same on the American flag instead of the stars would be small swastika. So worldwide. Having all RESOURCES USSR for the Germans it would not be difficult.

The notion of Soviet soldiers attacking the Germans on behalf of the monster Stalin is ridiculous. Mother Russia I'd believe. Stalin was a butcher, only barely exceeded by Hitler - and you'll get an argument from some people that he was worse.
 
Thank you for trying to get this thread back on track

Now as to your assessment I don't think it was possible the German supply lines were stretched to the max, they were stopped as much by logistics as anything else. Further advances would just have made the situation worse. Although if all three of what you said happened. Moscow, Leningrad and Caucasus, then perhaps it would have changed the course of the war. Just one of them by itself wouldn't have.

Agreed. See Bonaparte, Napoleon for what happens when you have extended supply lines and you 'succeed' in capturing Moscow.
 
I'm far from being a communist - I just don't like when people spout bs about things they don't know nothing about, especially when it's related to Russia or Israel.

Btw you didn't answer the question, i'd even highlight the question part for ya; When Americans are gonna stop beating and killing blacks on the streets?



PS. I know that it's hard to read sarcasm online but really :lamo - do you think that a normal person would actually ask a question like the one I posed above?!?!?

It's just me paraphrasing an excerpt from a old joke;

"The 60's-
An Armenian radio host receives a question from the US,
Can a simple engineer in the USSR buy a car?
The Armenian radio host after thinking for quite a bit, finally replies -
And...and...you still lynch blacks"


So...if you still don't get it, i"ll explain it slowly - my "question" was/is ridiculous as were your obviously very knowledgeable questions in your previous post.

Fallen

No, I think I understand your position perfectly. You think Communism worked out rather well for the Russians. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

No, I don't think a normal person would have asked the question that you did.
 
1. Did the Allies have the resources to do this?

Yes, mostly because the forces in Europe were already being prepared for movement to the Pacific Theatre. Between the US Army and Marine Corps alone you had almost 9 million personnel. The Navy had another 3.4 million. Now granted that these were not all grunts, that is one heck of a "big stick". And add to that the increased logistics train and you would have had a massive invasion force (not even including the rest of the Allies)

2. How many casualties would result on both sides?

This is the most chilling aspect of this invasion. While you hear lots of different figures for the estimates, I tend to believe that the William Shockley report is probably the most accurate estimate. Unlike most estimates, this one took into consideration the large casualties that both sides suffered in the Battle of Okinawa, then increased them to cover the estimated forces of both sides.

US Casualties: 1.7-4 million, 400,000-800,000 deaths
Japanese Casualties and Deaths: 5-10 million

The Japan afterwards would not be recognizable today. It would have been almost completely devastated as a nation and a culture.

3. Would Japan be able to be completely taken over?

Yes, eventually they would because of their culture. One thing about their culture is that once they recognize that they are defeated, they are completely defeated. There would not have been any kind of insurgency like we have seen in other cultures. But first we would have had to virtually destroy them.

4. Would the world of not entered the age of nuclear weapons as fast?

I think this had little impact on that. In fact, the horrors of the high casualty numbers might have even driven this race harder and faster - to prevent the horrors of such an invasion again.

And without having actually seen the results first-hand in a war, nations might have been more willing to actually use them. Imagine without Hiroshima and Nagasaki, President Truman might have agreed to use them in say the Korean War. Or the French in Indochina.

5. What position would the Soviet Union take in this Operation?

Probably much like what they did. Remain out of the land war in Japan itself (other then a few token units), and simply try to gobble up as much of her Asian territories as possible.
 
The notion of Soviet soldiers attacking the Germans on behalf of the monster Stalin is ridiculous. Mother Russia I'd believe. Stalin was a butcher, only barely exceeded by Hitler - and you'll get an argument from some people that he was worse.

About Stalin wrong. You're a victim of Western propaganda. Of course he took a tough decision, but you need to look at all from the point of view of the historical period. I assure you that Stalin was no more cruel than any politician of the time. I could give examples, but I think it's useless. Who really was a beast, it's Trotsky (Bronshteyn) and Lenin (Ulyanov-Blank). Although about them they were all silent for some reason. If we recall that the British were doing in Tasmania - in comparison with them, Stalin was a saint. And the Americans have a lot of skeletons in the closet. If you are interested in this topic, we can talk about it.
 
The notion of Soviet soldiers attacking the Germans on behalf of the monster Stalin is ridiculous. Mother Russia I'd believe. Stalin was a butcher, only barely exceeded by Hitler - and you'll get an argument from some people that he was worse.

Herbert Wells about Stalin: "I confess that I came to Stalin with some suspicion and prejudice. In my mind, the image was created by a very careful, focused a fanatic, a despot, jealous, suspicious. I expected to find a ruthless, cruel whose spirit never completely no pulled out from their mountain valleys ... All vague rumors of suspicion for me ceased to exist forever, after I talked to him a few minutes. I have never met a man more sincere, decent and honest, there is nothing dark and sinister, and it is these qualities it should explain its tremendous power in Russia. "
 
Your last two posts were absolutely hilarious. It demonstrates a thorough brainwashing by the Soviet/Communist education system and a willingness to ignore anything to the contrary. Sorry, you now go on the 'irrelevant and not worth my time to read' list. I think you are the first non-Nazi to qualify. Congratulations.
 
No, I think I understand your position perfectly. You think Communism worked out rather well for the Russians. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

No, I don't think a normal person would have asked the question that you did.

No answer about the blacks though...lol, :lamo?!?

Fallen.
 
I'm still awaiting to hear from you how well communism worked out for Russia, since you claimed that it did. Where did those successes manifest themselves? Clearly not in indoor plumbing for the peasants. Since that's one of your locations, I figured that would be easy for you to answer.

Apparently not.
 
The Wehrmacht was inadequately provisioned as far as clothing went.....................Even the Aryan nation was susceptible to "freezing to death"..........................

Sabotage.
 
I'm still awaiting to hear from you how well communism worked out for Russia, since you claimed that it did. Where did those successes manifest themselves? Clearly not in indoor plumbing for the peasants. Since that's one of your locations, I figured that would be easy for you to answer.

Apparently not.

You see the "quote button" underneath the posts - use it.

Regarding the your "question" i already answered it, here i"ll even quote myself;
a. Actually pretty good - now (the country that pretty much has all the possible resources it may need) is still being destroyed by corruption, by crappy economics, crappy political system.
However, contrary to the past it is not a world superpower anymore - it can not produce educated people anymore and doesn't have the military, scientific, the economical and political leverages to promote and protect its own well being and the well being of its own people.


Anything else?...ah yes, When Americans are gonna stop beating and killing blacks on the streets? :lamo

Fallen.
 
So you have no answer as to examples of how communism worked out well for the Russians. Why don't you just say so, instead of trying to dodge and weave? And how's that indoor plumbing working out in the paradise that is Russia today? How are the peasants faring? Have they gotten enough money together to stuff Stalin like they did Lenin? Or is he pretty much worm food?
 
Can we stop the talk of Communism and get back on the topic of Alternate History Please. . .
 
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