ALEC's Stand Yur ground law lets whites kill blacks and walk [W:823]

[buck]

Snippy? Hehe! No Buck, frustrated with your inabuility to see it has already been done and that the same data has been presented for you to verify for yourself.

I am also amazed that you have ignored questtions put to you.

So if there is nothing else?

And forgive spelling hard to see on cell phone.

I read the link provided. It showed that blacks successfully use SYG. However, when it is a black killing a white, their successful SYG is lower then might be expected. This realyl doesn't mean anythign without more information.

For example, I didn't see any comparisons between fairly similar cases where one was succesfull and the other was not based on race. If I missed it. Sorry. Please provide that cite again. I would be interested in seeing it.

You provided a list of SYG cases in FL. INteresting. But I didn't see any cases that seemed similar but had different outcomes based on race.

Not concerned about spelling at all.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

It involves police, prosecutors, judges and many staff members. Why on earth are you trying to demonize me for something I never implied or said? It is something you made up in your mind, not mine as I know what I said. Is it that important for you to hide blatant problems in our criminal justice system? Or do you just want to say racism does not exists?

Black Manta, you mentioned earlier that you observed disparities in the system while working as a police officer. Do you mind detailing what those were? For me, I grew up poor white trash, so it seemed the main dividing line in how cops treated people was based on the likelihood that you could afford a competent lawyer. Which I see as being able to account for much (not all) of the racial disparity in the system, being that AA make up a disproportionate amount of the poor.

 

[Goshin]

A lot of the people I hung out with in high school were suspended/got into fights (what kid hasn't), drug use (smoking pot). **** most of them are now accountants/lawyers/police officers etc.

Sure, and I did crap when I was 15-20yo that I really don't want to talk about too.

You look at the info that is available, it looked like TM was "on the thug track"... I've seen this many many times, both in and out of LE. I'm talking about people that start down that road, never get off it, and only get worse and worse until they end up dead or doing a long stretch in prison.

That's speculation on my part, but experienced speculation. Maybe TM was salvageable.... maybe he WOULD have turned off that path if he'd had the chance. I freely admit I don't know, and now no one will know.


What we do know, at least based on available evidence, is that he assaulted GZ in a manner that made him fear for his life, and that a jury judged this a reasonable belief. :shrug:

 

[SheWolf]

You could say it's like a man and woman getting into a physical, domestic dispute. Typically the woman gets the benefit of the doubt, though plenty of women do start physical altercations.

Well as much as I support the Zimmerman verdict as correct, it does seem to be OK to shoot blacks and not whites. Seems like every case where a black person defends themselves they go to jail. Whites seem to get a pass. So can anyone show me a few cases where a black person successfully defended themselves and did not get charged for a crime? I know the media has been plastering cases where self defence does not apply, so I would like to see the real deal. I looked and found none.

 

[SheWolf]

Jordan Davis was shot soon after his killer complained of hating his thug music. Jordan Davis was black and unarmed, though his killer said he feared for his life because he thought Davis pointed a gun at him while in a verbal alteraction.

Jordan was an assumed thug, playing thug music and his killer assumed him to be a danger.

It's ridiculous. Thug is a racially loaded word. You may not use it as one, but plenty of other people do. Stop being blind.

Yes, let's forget the pictures of the gun and all the other thug culture paraphernalia adopted by martin.




LOL, TPD, you're likely an upper-middle class white kid who's only interaction with minorities is the indian kid you sometimes nod to on campus




As I pointed out before. Just because you were brought up in an advantaged scenerio where the only thugs were black does not mean your experience holds legitimacy for everyone else. So stop projecting your very limited and narrow experience with minorities onto other people.

Yes, it's sad that in your world the only people who could be labeled thugs are black, but that is a demon you need to deal with, not larger society

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Amazing that folks would see the injuries that TM had inflicted on GZ and think that could be indicative of a violent criminal thug!

It is amazing that people would conclude that someone is thug from something like that, I agree. I've seen plenty of fights in my day between people who were not thugs, by any means. You see a thug if you want to see a thug. That's it. And most of the people who want to see a thug are of an older generation and/or a certain race. The racial, generational and cultural disconnects and prejudices are quite clear.

I agree that juries do not always get it right but that is our system of criminal justice.

I love the "oh well" attitude that so many right-leaning white people seem to have about this. Makes sense since they are the people who are probably least likely to get shafted by that system.

 

[SheWolf]

He doesn't look like a thug in his pictures. He has tattoos, a hoodie, a fake grill made out of a rollo wrapper. He doesn't look more thug than the rich white kids who party like rock stars in Scottsdale, the kids you call ironic.

You don't think that TM purposely courted a thug image with his twitter and face book account?



I haven't seen anything from Zimmerman that makes me think he was going for the thug image. Some things reported about him certainly makes him sound like a scumbag, but that is different than brandishing gold teeth, drugs and guns, and associating yourself with a ****ty gangster rap label.

As I said before, TM seemed to purposely court the image of a thug, so it doesn't seem surprising that people describe him in such a manner.

If he was an actual thug is another question entirely. Though the stolen property certainly doesn't help, I assume he was more a want-a-be than anything actually legit

 

[ThePlayDrive]

No...that's part of the whole "he's a thug so of course he started it" delio.

The only person with an arrest record is Zimmerman. What a coincidence...it deals with assault on a police officer and he stated that the police officer started it and he was just defending himself.

It's amazing to me that Zimmerman, someone who was arrested for assault and someone whose girlfriend took a restraining order out on him WHEN HE WAS AN ADULT, is not being called a "thug" at all. But the kid who smoked pot and took dumb pictures AS A TEENAGER is being labeled a "thug" as if it as undeniable fact. LOL, the prejudice is so clear.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

LOL, TPD, you're likely an upper-middle class white kid who's only interaction with minorities is the indian kid you sometimes nod to on campus

This is actually a really funny comment given who I am. It's a shame that I'm the only one who gets to enjoy it.

 

[SheWolf]

The rich white kids with tattoos and actual grills, expensive grills, do drugs and get in loads of trouble. The only difference is their race and money, and mom and dads money keeps them out of legal trouble.

Trayvon doesn't deserve to be called a thug anymore than the white kids he calls ironic.

I'm pretty sure he did.


I see one major difference. I see a guy with actual run ins with the law. A girlfriend or ex wife that claimed he was abusive and charges of assault on a police officer. The other is yes...typical teenager behavior. Teenager fit it...be it goth/hipster/"thug" whatever.

Martin went to a large urban Miami school. I'm pretty sure dressing like a "thug" helped him fit in. As every teenager has ever done in the history of groups of teenagers interacting.



I agree....he wasn't in a gang...if he was truly a "thug" I'm sure the incident would of played out differently.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Well as much as I support the Zimmerman verdict as correct, it does seem to be OK to shoot blacks and not whites. Seems like every case where a black person defends themselves they go to jail. Whites seem to get a pass. So can anyone show me a few cases where a black person successfully defended themselves and did not get charged for a crime? I know the media has been plastering cases where self defence does not apply, so I would like to see the real deal. I looked and found none.

I was actually wondering the same thing last night. I wondered if the media was just withholding such cases in order to fit a narrative or if they were really so rare that there was nothing to report.

 

[KevinKohler]

Jordan Davis was shot soon after his killer complained of hating his thug music. Jordan Davis was black and unarmed, though his killer said he feared for his life because he thought Davis pointed a gun at him while in a verbal alteraction.

Jordan was an assumed thug, playing thug music and his killer assumed him to be a danger.

It's ridiculous. Thug is a racially loaded word. You may not use it as one, but plenty of other people do. Stop being blind.

Since does thug mean "black man"?


Jesus titty ****ing Christ on a crutch. Are we just making **** up now? First, cracker = cop, now thug = black man, lol.

A thug is a dim witted henchman, regardless of race or ethnicities. When the mafia sent a guy around to collect protection money, who did they send? A ****ing thug...who was Italian. Same with the Irish.

 

[FilmFestGuy]

Good point. What is still being ignored is the reality that blacks are still going to be disporportionally higher crime victims with or without the SYG law(s) and that their perps will still be mostly black. Can anyone show that SYG laws actually increases crime? It seems that is the real point of any criminal law change - an attempt to reduce the overall crime rate.

http://econweb.tamu.edu/mhoekstra/castle_doctrine.pdf

It's a .pdf of a study from Texas A&M that suggest that homicide rates have increased by 8% in states with SYG laws.

I would argue that without the SYG laws, Zimmerman calls the cops and stays in his car or lets them handle it. The very existence of the laws lowers the potential "cost" of stalking Martin, so he goes ahead and does it.

It gives all the "Dirty Harrys" out there a little more cover to go "take one out."

Look at the guy in Jacksonville who shot INTO a sitting car over an argument that their "music was too loud" and he "thought he saw a gun" (none was found) and he "feared for his life."

This law makes paranoiacs think that shooting is the best first response.

 

[KevinKohler]

The rich white kids with tattoos and actual grills, expensive grills, do drugs and get in loads of trouble. The only difference is their race and money, and mom and dads money keeps them out of legal trouble.

Trayvon doesn't deserve to be called a thug anymore than the white kids he calls ironic.

Color means less than the money they have at their disposal.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Sure, and I did crap when I was 15-20yo that I really don't want to talk about too.

You look at the info that is available, it looked like TM was "on the thug track"... I've seen this many many times, both in and out of LE. I'm talking about people that start down that road, never get off it, and only get worse and worse until they end up dead or doing a long stretch in prison.

That's speculation on my part, but experienced speculation. Maybe TM was salvageable.... maybe he WOULD have turned off that path if he'd had the chance. I freely admit I don't know, and now no one will know.

I love that you talk about him like you know him. You don't. "Maybe TM was salvageable"? Really? Maybe you're reading too much into this because you're projecting all sorts of prejudices onto him that you refuse to admit you have. Although given that I've seen you agree with a white supremacist on this site before, maybe you are aware of them.

This is exactly why it is important to have diverse juries. Because if juries are filled with people who are alienated from certain populations and see other people from a very narrow perspective, they aren't going to be reliable.

 

[SheWolf]

And if he scared the **** out of Trayvon, and he did run home, George would just assume the ****ing punk got away again. It would just confirm to George he correctly profiled, and Trayvon was not actually in Trayvon's neighborhood. His actions were wrong. People should never be racially profiled to that degree.

You may have missed this in your own article...

But the data the Daily Caller cited, from The Tampa Bay Times, reveals that contrary to the claim that blacks largely "benefit" or have been "helped" by Florida's Stand Your Ground law, those who killed black people and cited Stand Your Ground got off at a higher rate than those who killed white people. Additionally, a comprehensive review of Stand Your Ground states found that black individuals citing the statute whose victims were white were less likely to go free than any other perpetrators.

For fatal cases that have reached a verdict in Florida, the attack was more likely to be considered justified if the victims were black (78 percent) than if the victims were white (56 percent), according to the Times database. - Fox, Daily Caller Mislead On Stand Your Ground To Claim Black Americans "Benefit" From The Law | Blog | Media Matters for America

Research conducted by John Roman, a senior fellow at the Urban Institute's Justice Policy Center, has also suggested that blacks do not necessarily "benefit" from such laws. Roman found that in states with Stand Your Ground laws, "the killings of black people by whites were more likely to be considered justified than the killings of white people by blacks." Roman found that white people were 354 percent more likely to be found justified in killing a black person than another white person across Stand Your Ground states. He found that white shooters with black victims were disproportionately more likely to be found justified in non-stand your ground states as well, but to a lesser extent.

I support stand your ground laws but being a black man, I find this disconcerting and something must be done to correct this.

It deals directly with what you wrote



So you're saying there was no prior report of black suspects? The belief there is you assuming he merely found him suspicious because he was black. I'm pointing to the fact that crimes were reported in the area involving black suspects, which creates more than a probable scenario where someone would find an unknown black person wondering around a gated community suspicious. So it undermines your earlier belief and assumption, while making no claim about what I suspect Zimmerman was actually thinking

 

[Goshin]

I love that you talk about him like you know him. You don't. "Maybe TM was salvageable"? Really? Maybe you're reading too much into this because you're projecting all sorts of prejudices onto him that you refuse to admit you have. Although given that I've seen you agree with a white supremacist on this site before, maybe you are aware of them.

This is exactly why it is important to have diverse juries. Because if juries are filled with people who are alienated from certain populations and see other people from a very narrow perspective, they aren't going to be reliable.

Laughable. 'Alienated from a certain population', am I? You have no fricking idea. I probably spend almost as much time in the company of black folks as white folks.

 

[Black Dog]

I read the link provided. It showed that blacks successfully use SYG. However, when it is a black killing a white, their successful SYG is lower then might be expected. This realyl doesn't mean anythign without more information.

We already have the information. You don't want to admit it.

For example, I didn't see any comparisons between fairly similar cases where one was succesfull and the other was not based on race. If I missed it. Sorry. Please provide that cite again. I would be interested in seeing it.

Then get off your ass and go through the data and compare.

You provided a list of SYG cases in FL. INteresting. But I didn't see any cases that seemed similar but had different outcomes based on race.

So in less than 10 minutes your were able to go through each case and compare each one? That's pretty amazing.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc/publications/rd_sentencing_review.pdf
http://time.dufe.edu.cn/jingjiwencong/waiwenziliao1/004109.web.pdf
Racial Disparity in Sentencing | Open Society Foundations (OSF)
Data Show Racial Disparity in Crack Sentencing - US News and World Report

Any questions?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Laughable. 'Alienated from a certain population', am I? You have no fricking idea. I probably spend almost as much time in the company of black folks as white folks.

It's cute that you thought I meant physical alienation.

 

[SheWolf]

Accidentally quoted manta above. That was meant for dr chuckles only.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Since does thug mean "black man"?

It doesn't in all cases, but it is a racially charged word. And considering that the dead black teenager is being called a thug by some people because he smoked pot and posted dumb pictures while the alive Hispanic/white guy who was arrested for assault and had a restraining order taken on him is not being called a "thug" demonstrates the racial nature of its use in this case.

 

[Black Dog]

Black Manta, you mentioned earlier that you observed disparities in the system while working as a police officer. Do you mind detailing what those were? For me, I grew up poor white trash, so it seemed the main dividing line in how cops treated people was based on the likelihood that you could afford a competent lawyer. Which I see as being able to account for much (not all) of the racial disparity in the system, being that AA make up a disproportionate amount of the poor.

If I had not posted pictures of myself, car and family I would probably do so. Since I have I really can't.

I will say again yes financial is a part of it no doubt. Yes you are correct.

 

[Black Dog]

You could say it's like a man and woman getting into a physical, domestic dispute. Typically the woman gets the benefit of the doubt, though plenty of women do start physical altercations.

Yea that's not a bad analogy. So I agree.

 

[SheWolf]

John McNeil comes to mind. He shot and killed a home invader and served 6 years in prison. He is black, the guy he shot was white.

I think he was later cleared of charges, because they realized the verdict was unfair and ****ed up.

I did follow the link that was previously provided. This was not that link. So, great. Now we have a list of victims and crims etc. Can you give me an example of two that you found similar where the white guy went free under SYG and the black guy was denied SYG protections?

 

[KevinKohler]

It doesn't in all cases, but it is a racially charged word. And considering that the dead black teenager is being called a thug by some people because he smoked pot and posted dumb pictures while the alive Hispanic/white guy who was arrested for assault and had a restraining order taken on him is not being called a "thug" demonstrates the racial nature of its use in this case.

I would not call Martin a thug...he's a kid. At best, he's a thug wanna be...

As for finding a way to make it about race, lol. Stretching a bit, ain't cha? So no one is currently calling Z a thug...that's probably because of his dimeaner, his personality...and his voice. Not for nothing...that dude is NOT intimidating in any way, what so ever. Which is a prerequisite for thuggery.