ALEC's Stand Yur ground law lets whites kill blacks and walk [W:823]

[Middleground]

I wasn't there. You were not there. Neither of us knows if Zim could have handled this better, or if he had sufficient control over the situation to have prevented this from happening.


Zimmerman had no capacity to see the future... he didn't know this was going to happen when he got out of his vehicle, or he would have stayed in it. Less than wise? Yes... but not a criminal act.


What we do know is that TM chose to confront him, and quickly escalated that to hitting, mounting, and ground-and-pounding him on pavement. That is a threat to life or grave bodily harm, and a violent crime. That is justification to shoot.

Why do you think a kid walking home from the corner store decided to -- unprevoked, and all of a sudden -- attack Zimmerman??? Think about it... it does not make one iota of sense.

 

[Middleground]

TM did a hell of a lot more than that, according to the evidence as presented in court.

Like what?

 

[Goshin]

You never did get the opportunity to hear the other side of the story, didn't you? Yet you have no issue calling him a thug.

The prosecution had their opportunity to present "the other side of the story" with such evidence as is available.... it obviously was not very compelling.

 

[Goshin]

Like what?

Attacked a man, knocked him down, got on top of him, and pounded his head into the pavement.




Everybody seems to forget that part for some reason...

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I wasn't aware ALEC had an affinity for Hispanics. Progress indeed...

 

[MaggieD]

I don't think I could handle living with killing another person. Surviving a violent crime eould be difficult enough, but to kill somebody would be added trauma in my mind. I would prefer to avoid killing anybody, under any circumstance.

Then you've lived a very sheltered life, SheWolf. There are people in this world so damned evil and psychopathic, putting them down would be a blessing -- for them, and everyone else. It's hard for me to believe that anyone would relish killing another person; few do, I'd wager. And certainly the way cops often react to deadly encounters leads me to believe that it's traumatic for all of us. And the pain soldiers feel is often unbearable. But if it's between you and your 3-year-old daughter and a home invader? I'm betting you wouldn't blink an eye. You'd deal with the aftermath rather than see your child die.

 

[ric27]

Prove positive that the ALEC inspired Stand you ground laws help whites who kill blacks get off free.

The One Graph That Proves Stand Your Ground Laws Help Jurors Let White Defendants Go Free




The data is clear: Stand Your Ground increases the likelihood of a not-guilty finding, but only when a white person is accused of killing a black person.


These are facts folks based on hard statistics.

The nationwide rape of the country from ALEC continues and few have even heard of the organization. And that is the way they want it.

The issue is not the immunity statute but, the ignorance of *said statute*

Immunity for justified use of force is supposed to keep individuals who are justified in use of force from being intimidated or subjected to hostile pressure by a DA, over zealous prosecutors, vindictive judges, cops and thugs.

Assuming *said individual* was justified in his or her use of force, he/she *has immunity*

It depends on the *justified use of force* if immunity exists or not

 

[Oceandan]

Why do you think a kid walking home from the corner store decided to -- unprevoked, and all of a sudden -- attack Zimmerman??? Think about it... it does not make one iota of sense.

You've not been around 17 y.o. males much. You've been around even fewer 17 y.o. African-American males who are "conditioned" to view every non black as a "creepy ass cracker".

Unprovoked? I've had them attempt to start a fight because I looked at them. Heck I've had them attempt to start a fight because they THOUGHT I was looking at them. This was in a controlled environment, not at night, when they were on the phone with their girl.

 

[SheWolf]

I have no reason to think you're racist. I wasn't saying you were.

My first paragraph was about me. I am just saying I am not racist because of what I have been through. I am not full of anger either.

You seem to be angry at certain people you call thugs. I take it you work with people who have been hurt or attacked.

Sharing in this, my two cents, I am not angry. I feel try to feel blessed while broken, and was putting myself back together. I think I am a survivor, not a victim, not angry. I am,not racist, though I could be.

It's just a different, I think healthier way of looking at such events. A lot of people who survive violence are amazing, touching, and inspiring people. I just feel blessed in their presence and uplifted.

Whatever work you do, I hope you pick up on those good vibes, not just the bad.

Ma'am, I hate no one. I am not a racist. I resent your implication that I am.


This is something the other pros on the board will know what I'm talking about, and others probably won't; when I say I'd shoot someone for something, it has NOTHING to do with hate. I have no need to hate someone to shoot them. It is when they cross a certain line, which typically involves making their self a serious threat to me or mine, that I will shoot. I will shoot them with no hate in my heart whatsoever.... to be perfectly honest, with a certain regret (that they forced me into this choice)... but I will shoot them nonetheless.

 

[Goshin]

Why do you think a kid walking home from the corner store decided to -- unprevoked, and all of a sudden -- attack Zimmerman??? Think about it... it does not make one iota of sense.

I'm not astonished, as I've seen lots of thug behavior that made no sense at all.


Sounds like Martin, who available information indicates liked a fight, decided to teach this "creepy ass cracker" a lesson. Didn't work out so well.

 

[Goshin]

I have no reason to think you're racist. I wasn't saying you were.

My first paragraph was about me. I am just saying I am not racist because of what I have been through. I am not full of anger either.

You seem to be angry at certain people you call thugs. I take it you work with people who have been hurt or attacked.

Sharing in this, my two cents, I am not angry. I feel try to feel blessed while broken, and was putting myself back together. I think I am a survivor, not a victim, not angry. I am,not racist, though I could be.

It's just a different, I think healthier way of looking at such events. A lot of people who survive violence are amazing, touching, and inspiring people. I just feel blessed in their presence and uplifted.

Whatever work you do, I hope you pick up on those good vibes, not just the bad.

Again, it has nothing to do with anger. It has nothing to do with emotion at all.


It has to do when certain lines are crossed, that the "gloves come off" and civilization goes bye-bye for now, and it is now about survival.



When thugs cross those lines, I have no problem with people doing what they have to do.

 

[SheWolf]

If I were a mother, it could chafe but I am not. I am far from sheltered, my grandpa was forced to fight in a war. He couldn't bear to kill anybody. He did see a youth shot in the head, execution style, and that messed him up.

Taking a life isn't easy. To me, it's added trauma on me in a violent crime. Not only do you have to live with an attack, but with killing a person.

I honestly have moral issues with doing it myself. To me, ending a life isn't a matter of being hero. It's humanity in it's most desperate and darkest existence. It's a split second decision, life altering, and it's a lot to take on.

I am just not personally comfortable with ending human life. Neither was my grandpa.

And my belief system is that Trayvon's life should be respected, even in his death. The kid should be mourned. His name shouldn't be dragged.through the mud.

Then you've lived a very sheltered life, SheWolf. There are people in this world so damned evil and psychopathic, putting them down would be a blessing -- for them, and everyone else. It's hard for me to believe that anyone would relish killing another person; few do, I'd wager. And certainly the way cops often react to deadly encounters leads me to believe that it's traumatic for all of us. And the pain soldiers feel is often unbearable. But if it's between you and your 3-year-old daughter and a home invader? I'm betting you wouldn't blink an eye. You'd deal with the aftermath rather than see your child die.

 

[MaggieD]

If I were a mother, it could chafe but I am not. I am far from sheltered, my grandpa was forced to fight in a war. He couldn't bear to kill anybody. He did see a youth shot in the head, execution style, and that messed him up.

Taking a life isn't easy. To me, it's added trauma on me in a violent crime. Not only do you have to live with an attack, but with killing a person.

I honestly have moral issues with doing it myself. To me, ending a life isn't a matter of being hero. It's humanity in it's most desperate and darkest existence. It's a do lit second decision, life altering, and it's a lot to take on.

I am just not personally comfortable with ending human life. Neither was my grandpa.

And my belief system is that Trayvon's life should be respected, even in his death. The kid should be mourned. His name shouldn't be dragged.through the mud.

I had forgotten you were the victim of a violent crime. I can't presume to know the workings of your mind, so I respectfully withdraw my armchair analysis.

I agree with you about Trayvon Martin. I hope his parents feel the same way about dragging his name through the mud, because that's exactly what will happen if they file a civil suit against George Zimmerman. *shrug*

 

[SheWolf]

Ever consider that Trayvon had.reason to see Zimmerman as a thug he needed to defend himself from?

Again, it has nothing to do with anger. It has nothing to do with emotion at all.


It has to do when certain lines are crossed, that the "gloves come off" and civilization goes bye-bye for now, and it is now about survival.



When thugs cross those lines, I have no problem with people doing what they have to do.

 

[Goshin]

Ever consider that Trayvon had.reason to see Zimmerman as a thug he needed to defend himself from?

Has also been talked about. I've answered the question several times.


I've been followed by suspicious persons. I've handled it sometimes by evasion, sometimes by carefully choosing my ground, confronting the follower, and demanding to know why he is following me while being ready to act if necessary. What I have NOT done is "a Trayvon", that is to say, punched a man and knocked him down and beat his head on the pavement JUST for following me.

Why? Because...
1. Attacking strangers of unknown capabilities is a good way to get killed.
2. Absent other more dramatic threat-behavior I could be charged with aggravated assault for that.

 

[Middleground]

The prosecution had their opportunity to present "the other side of the story" with such evidence as is available.... it obviously was not very compelling.

There were two witnesses to the incident. One of them died and so did his side of the story.

 

[SheWolf]

This is the comment where you sound angry. It seems personal for you.

Yeah, I spent some years cleaning up the aftermath of broken lives, broken people, and broken children in the wake of thug's actions, so I have this odd lack of sympathy for them.

 

[Goshin]

If I were a mother, it could chafe but I am not. I am far from sheltered, my grandpa was forced to fight in a war. He couldn't bear to kill anybody. He did see a youth shot in the head, execution style, and that messed him up.

Taking a life isn't easy. To me, it's added trauma on me in a violent crime. Not only do you have to live with an attack, but with killing a person.

I honestly have moral issues with doing it myself. To me, ending a life isn't a matter of being hero. It's humanity in it's most desperate and darkest existence. It's a split second decision, life altering, and it's a lot to take on.

I am just not personally comfortable with ending human life. Neither was my grandpa.

And my belief system is that Trayvon's life should be respected, even in his death. The kid should be mourned. His name shouldn't be dragged.through the mud.

Some people's names deserve to be dragged through the mud, even if they were killed early. Pol Pot should have been killed early, just to name one. (No, I'm not comparing...)


However, talking about WHO TM was in reality (not a cuddly 12yo as in the first pic, but a tall 17yo who was into weed, trouble and fighting), and what established fact says he DID (assault a man severely enough to make him fear for his life), is NOT the same as dragging his name thru the mud.

It's called being real.

 

[Middleground]

Attacked a man, knocked him down, got on top of him, and pounded his head into the pavement.




Everybody seems to forget that part for some reason...

How do you know that? Do you actually think its not possible that Zimmerman lied? Think about it for one second... why would Martin have a beef with a complete stranger coming back from the corner store to watch the NBA all-star game?

 

[SheWolf]

I m sure your kid fits somebody's definition of a thug.

It's always different, TO YOU, when it is YOUR own kid. Always. Human nature.


Of course, that changes exactly nothing about who was in the right or who was in the wrong.

 

[Goshin]

This is the comment where you sound angry. It seems personal for you.

Lack of sympathy =/= anger.


Oh don't get me wrong... there was a time when I was indeed angry about the thuggery our society tolerates. I've had more than one good friend murdered for no good reason. I saw more than my fair share of the evil men do when I was in law enforcement. Did it mess with me? Yes it did. Over time I learned to deal; I learned, over years of hard struggle, to forgive the men who murdered my best friend and to pray for their souls.

But I have this thing about people engaging in violent thuggery: they have crossed a line, like crossing the Rubicon under arms (Roman ref), and when they do so their lives are forfeit to any citizen defending his own or others. Unless they're very lucky.


I've shot two rabid foxes in proximity to my house within the past ten years. I don't hate foxes. Rabies does not make me angry. I shot them with a certain regret... the fox is a magnificent animal and since I don't eat fox it seems wasteful to kill one.... but regret or no, I killed them anyway, with no hesitation. I can't have rabid animals near my home, threatening me and my child.

That's more to the point.

 

[VanceMack]

Available evidence indicates otherwise.


Do I really need to enumerate it?


Suspensions, fighting, drug use... and then attacking a man, getting on top of him and slamming his head into the pavement.


Close enough.

No limit nigga gotta represent, yo. Aint no creepy ass cracker gonna follow him.

I cant help but wonder how many of the very caring liberal types that are pro Trayvon would advocate for any and everyone else using violence if they felt threatened and would defend violent physical attack on the basis that they felt threatened.

 

[Goshin]

I m sure your kid fits somebody's definition of a thug.

You don't know my kid... therefore one could certainly take that as a rude assumption.


How tall is he? What is his favorite color? How late is he allowed to stay out at night? Under what circumstances is he allowed to be out without adult supervision? Has he ever been suspended from school?


You know none of these things. Hell, you don't even know what race he is, and probably don't know what race I am.


So how about you keep that sort of thing to yourself, lest someone take it personally. We're talking about a 17yo whose behaviors and actions are known, and which have been judged in a court of law and found wanting.

 

[SheWolf]

We only have one side of the story, but we have no proof in how they actually encountered each other. We just know Zimmerman was bloodied and hit.

We didn't see the beating.

It's really not important. My point is, we know little about what actually happened. There wasn't enough evidence to show Zimmerman guilty, but it's not unreasonable or ignorant to feel much is left unknown and unproven.

I wasn't there. You were not there. Neither of us knows if Zim could have handled this better, or if he had sufficient control over the situation to have prevented this from happening.


Zimmerman had no capacity to see the future... he didn't know this was going to happen when he got out of his vehicle, or he would have stayed in it. Less than wise? Yes... but not a criminal act.


What we do know is that TM chose to confront him, and quickly escalated that to hitting, mounting, and ground-and-pounding him on pavement. That is a threat to life or grave bodily harm, and a violent crime. That is justification to shoot.

 

[apdst]

So you believe that a person should have a duty to retreat when unlawfully attacked? A duty to give ground to an assailant rather than defend herself from attack?

Libbos don't believe in self defense. They think we should cower on the ground and hope we live through it.

Especiallly if the victim is white and the assailant is non-white.