Alcoholics Anonymous - Thumbs Up or Thumbs Down?

Nightrider said:

I apologize for this, to any that were offended. I'm in no way a "Vader." LS was always my favorite - at least when I was a little kid. But I wasn't in a great mood last night, so I understand anyone whom didn't appreciate the post below. Thanks to all who responded in this thread - I guess if AA works for a lot of people, it can't be that bad. Where I went to meetings in Miami as a 20 year old, there were a lot of sexual predators in those meetings (but, was it "real" AA? - perhaps another topic) - won't go into detail as to why I hated those people, but one can probably read between the lines what I'm saying.

Anyway, I apologize to all recovering Alcoholics for what I've said in this thread - and to the people whom still actively drink. AA isn't for everyone, but it can help.

Thanks for reading.

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"Reading between the lines" that was AWFUL for you. That is an excellent example of AA meetings to avoid at all costs, and I can understand your feelings towards AA. Not all meetings are like that. But this does bring up one of AA's failings. No real centralized management. I understand why... anonymity and all. But it does make it difficult to weed out the bad apples.

CaptainCourtesy said:

As a psychotherapist, I have worked with addicts for 25 years. I cannot remember one time where an addict choose to get help without some form of consequences or order.

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Know you have met me. I was mentally rock bottom and that caused me to accept help and work towards my beating my addiction.

And I am not talking about drugs, I am talking purely about alcohol and gambling. With drugs there is a need for consequences or order because there is so much of a chemical need to force someone to accept help in drugs that is much less prevalent in gambling and alcohol. At least that is my opinion.

Peter King said:

Know you have met me. I was mentally rock bottom and that caused me to accept help and work towards my beating my addiction.

And I am not talking about drugs, I am talking purely about alcohol and gambling. With drugs there is a need for consequences or order because there is so much of a chemical need to force someone to accept help in drugs that is much less prevalent in gambling and alcohol. At least that is my opinion.

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My guess is that your rock bottom yielded consequences. Perhaps you were going to lose your house... or your job... or your wife... or your family... or were going to go to jail... or your health... or something else. Without the threat of consequences, there would be no reason to stop.

paddymcdougall said:

In general I agree. But AA has become the "go to" group for legal stuff.

By this I mean - a friend of a friend had drinking problems. Bad. She lost her license to do physical therapy. She sobered up; was sober for a couple years; applied to get her license back. She was told she'd have to attend AA meetings daily for 90 days. (She also was on the hook to call in every day to see if she needed to give a pee test - which in our rural community meant she had to travel at least an hour each way, which would not have made it easy to get a job. There was some other stuff too)

But seriously? 90 AA meetings in 90 days? what does that prove?

She ended up just giving up on physical therapy - which she was good at - and looking for other work -which she hasn't found yet.

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To lose her PT license due to alcohol, and need 90 meetings to get it back doesn't sound like that bad a deal. Around here PT is a pretty decent occupation paying reasonably well with good working conditions, and it pays especially well for an indie in home-healthcare if they build-up a decent clientele - I know several PTs doing just that.

To walk away from one's profession and remain unemployed in lieu of 90 days of meetings, sounds a bit short-sighted to me.

I suspect your friend might have a bit more going on here, like she's still drinking or having issues coming to grip with paying the price for her mistakes. Or even perhaps she is addicted and is caught-up in 'addiction thinking', interfering with her decision processes.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I am very happy to hear you are doing better. From my experience, there are two kinds of AA meetings. The first are the dogmatic with no flexibility and with many punishing rules. The second are more flexible and understand that "not one size fits all" even when it comes to addicts. Currently in my caseload. I am treating several clients with depression. Under no circumstances to I treat them using the same techniques and types of psychotherapy. These are people, not examples in a textbook. Not all AA meetings are the dogmatic ones that some folks are describing. If I hear a client describe their experience at a meeting like that, I tell them to try a different meeting. An AA meeting that tells it's members that they can't take meds is a meeting to be avoided, for example.

AA doesn't work for everyone. It is neither the only roadmap for success from addiction, nor is it a crutch or a preventative for recovery.

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This is an interesting thread. I've attended some 12 step meetings in the UK (though not AA) and read some AA material. I like the spontaneous origins of it and the genuine desire of fellow addicts to muddle through and help each other. Just telling and hearing stories of sobriety alone can be amazingly inspiring, even to non-addicts. As psychotherapy has become more specialised, I guess that specialists have had more insight into the dynamics of 12 step groups and I can see a lot of benefit in a twin approach of psychotherapy and 12 step meetings.

In my limited experience, I felt that many members were slavish in their check-in phone calls, revealed too much about their lives too quickly, and the process of reckoning-up to the past (is that stage 4?) seemed to be interminable and over-scrupulous. I didn't get a good feeling that these people were really making progress, but more that they were stuck in a loop and that the whole group had some boundary issues (me too).

My conclusion is that people with fragile personalities will find it harder to get the best from 12 step meetings and avoid these pitfalls without the balance that a good therapist can bring. I think people are a lot more fragile in 2015 then when the founders of AA started up, and this needs to be reflected in the structure.

But to finish on a positive note, the big problem that addicts have is that they tried to deal with their problems on their own, and so swing from extreme independence to extreme dependence (on whatever substance). Good group support is about creating interdependence but over-dependence on the group along the way is almost inevitable to some degree.

Peter King said:

Know you have met me. I was mentally rock bottom and that caused me to accept help and work towards my beating my addiction.

And I am not talking about drugs, I am talking purely about alcohol and gambling. With drugs there is a need for consequences or order because there is so much of a chemical need to force someone to accept help in drugs that is much less prevalent in gambling and alcohol. At least that is my opinion.

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That is what you get when you are still half asleep and think you are awake enough to do some posting LOL.

Now you have met me, that is what it should read and not "know you have met me". What a gigantic blunder if I do say so myself.

Peter King said:

There is nothing wrong with a self help group, but I feel it has become something of a pseudo religion in the US (or at least that is how their booklet reads and their meetings sound).

I used to be addicted to gambling. I hit rock bottom before I went to the group. I went together with my mother (was still living at home). I sat in the group of gambling addicts and my mother sat in with the group of family/loved ones of the gambling addicts. Where I was being told about how I could try to stay away from gambling and what I should and should not do (give my bankcard to my mother, give my passport to my mother, give my wallet to my mother). And I was told that I cold ask for a voluntary house ban at the local gambling businesses and how I should do other things to not fall in the trap of boredom and falling back into gambling.

My mother was on the other side being informed about how she should keep my bank card until I had proven I was able to handle small amounts of money and had shown improvement. She was giving invaluable information from the people who had gone through it before. About the warning sings I would be giving off if I were about to fall off the straight and narrow.

There was no twelve step program, no religious things, no admitting that we were powerless and should throw ourselves at the mercy of a higher power, etc. etc. etc.

All we did was talk, support each other and only the leader (or one or two assistant leaders) should be called if a member got into trouble and needed support. For the rest we met up weekly to give each other moral support, etc. etc. etc.

Not to be too negative about AA, but maybe they should stop with the higher power and apologizing to everybody and put the energy into trying to restructure their lives into a live without ever using alcohol. Maybe even giving away their bank cards in the beginning to make sure they cannot fall back.

For the rest I cannot fault the wish of AA to help others but they should be a bit less superior about it and stop looking for power from outside themselves and start looking for it from the inside.

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That seems like a good, practical approach.

If people need AA and it works for them - great. But people are different, and everyone needs different approaches.

I'm also not sure I buy the "one drink will send you right back into the gutter" thing. Again - some people, yes. Others - maybe just need some help to cut back rather than give it up. Like with eating - find out what the triggers are that make one overeat/drink too much and work to avoid those triggers. No one says obese people can't ever eat food again; we don't even say you can never eat a dessert again.

JayDubya said:

Alcohol addiction is a pathophysiological state... whether or not you like the word "disease," neither is "just stop drinking, morans!" at all helpful for anyone who has an addiction.

I have seen increased criticism of AA in the past few years. I would say that if it helps some people, great. The ones who it doesn't, well, they can try something else.

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But it does seem as if it's hard to find programs that aren't based on AA. Its popularity has earned it a lot of copycats

Chomsky said:

To lose her PT license due to alcohol, and need 90 meetings to get it back doesn't sound like that bad a deal. Around here PT is a pretty decent occupation paying reasonably well with good working conditions, and it pays especially well for an indie in home-healthcare if they build-up a decent clientele - I know several PTs doing just that.

To walk away from one's profession and remain unemployed in lieu of 90 days of meetings, sounds a bit short-sighted to me.

I suspect your friend might have a bit more going on here, like she's still drinking or having issues coming to grip with paying the price for her mistakes. Or even perhaps she is addicted and is caught-up in 'addiction thinking', interfering with her decision processes.

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Oh it wasn't just that. It was also the having to be on the hook for the urine tests which had to be done in a town an hour away. After being sober for 2 years. And she was going to AA, just not daily.

But yes, she does have some other issues. She joined a new church group and started saying how she isn't an alcoholic, she's just allergic to alcohol - when she used to go through bottles of the hard stuff. If you're allergic, you feel it after one drink.

She isn't drinking, as far as know. But she does seem to have underlying issues still. Which may have interfered with her judgment.

I do think people could go to 90 AA meetings in 90 days and still be drinking though.

paddymcdougall said:

Oh it wasn't just that. It was also the having to be on the hook for the urine tests which had to be done in a town an hour away. After being sober for 2 years. And she was going to AA, just not daily.

But yes, she does have some other issues. She joined a new church group and started saying how she isn't an alcoholic, she's just allergic to alcohol - when she used to go through bottles of the hard stuff. If you're allergic, you feel it after one drink.

She isn't drinking, as far as know. But she does seem to have underlying issues still. Which may have interfered with her judgment.

I do think people could go to 90 AA meetings in 90 days and still be drinking though.

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Well, good for her getting & staying clean.

It seems she wants to deal with sobriety using using own prerogatives, and that's perfectly fine - only she knows the value of her former career, and what lengths she's willing to go to keep it (and what makes her happy).

As for drinking while attending meetings, you are absolutely right: I've anecdotal heard of individuals attending meetings for years while concurrently drinking! And I've heard this from pretty reliable trusted sources. I believe most individual groups are acceptant of this practice, asking only that if one has used/drank that day, that the refrain from contributing to the conversation - I think it's a fair policy.

Summerwind said:

I have no reason to, I have the least addictive personality of anyone I know. I don't drink, I don't gamble, I don't do drugs,... I'm a control freak, addiction just doesn't fit with that personality trait.

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Actually "control" is a prevalent trait in addicts. Alcoholics and addicts constantly have to control their environments as much as possible in order to be enabled. Alcoholics and addicts teach people in their lives how to act, react, and support their dependencies. It's just part of their survival tactics.

And this brings us to another form of addiction not yet talked about in this forum. It's called "Codependency".

Textbook Definition: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

Personally, I'd almost rather be a drunk or junkie. Codependents have to suffer without self-medicating. Feeling like life is totally ****ed up while being sober - sucks.

Cephus said:

Except some of these programs just trade one addiction for another.

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Everybody is addicted to something. I'd be willing to bet you're addicted to the air in your car's tires.

CaptainCourtesy said:

As a psychotherapist, I have worked with addicts for 25 years. I cannot remember one time where an addict choose to get help without some form of consequences or order.

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Well you cannot say that anymore because I did (although technically we have not 'met').

I was doing crack (a lot of it), had lots of money, my health was okay, no dependants and in no legal trouble whatsoever and I quit completely on my own.
I wanted to quit from the first time I tried it. One day I finally got tired of it and realized that it was a bridge to nowhere. Plus, the dot.com crash had started and I thought it wise to cut back on such an expensive 'hobby' while my investments were under duress.

And I have known several people that have quit simply because they were fed up with the lifestyle - not because of legal or health issues.

Also, those that I did know that quit because they 'had' to usually went back on it because addictikn is not because of boredom or rebellion, it's because of pain and suffering that an addict is trying to escape from. Just because a court orders you to quit - that does nothing to help the underlying cause of the addiction. In fact, it probably enhances it.

IMO, in most cases, the ONLY way for an addict to truly kick their addiction (whatever it is) is to want to kick it badly enough - not for others to try and force him/her to kick it.

And please try and remember - and I mean no offense - but just because because you supposedly counselled addicts, that does not mean for one second you understand them or know what they feel or why they do it.
Only addicts can know what they are going through - just as only someone that has given birth to a child can really know what it is like to go through...you have to experience it directly.

CaptainCourtesy said:

You obviously don't understand the concept of AA, of recovery, or of addiction. You didn't "quit". No one does. It's not a crutch. It assistance to remain in recovery from a serious disorder.

And as far as it being a "Christian recruitment" group, the only folks I've ever heard who've said that are militant atheists who really don't understand AA. The "higher power" doesn't have to mean a deity. I can give several examples of people who I knew who used something completely different as their "higher power". AA often gets criticized for using "God", but there are meetings that omit the higher power from it's literature.

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CC, as noted in Red...I completely agree.

I do have over 29 years of sobriety, but I HAVE NEVER QUIT drinking. I just choose not to drink today. The moment I think that I've quit, I'll drink again.

And I'm an atheist. But I was lucky enough to have a member give me a way to perceive GOD. It was a lifesaver for me.

G=Good
O=Orderly
D=Direction

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable

While I had a hard time admitting I was powerless over alcohol - I could clearly identify that my life was totally, insanely unmanageable. Good Orderly Direction is what I was in serious need of. I was uncontrollably unraveling. Whatever made alcohol work for me...stopped.

Let's just say that boozes gave me wings then took away my sky.

So every time I read the word "God"...or hear others speak about "God" as they understand him, her, or it...I translated that word into G.O.D. (Good Orderly Direction).

Thanks...

jet57 said:

So I guess you broke up with your girlfriend then. People indeed get physiologically addicted to alcohol the same way people get addicted to nicotine and cocaine. I would suggest that you read up on that first. Secondly, AA is very helpful for people who need the support and camaraderie for not giving in to life's stresses and drinking again.

Yeah, you need to study up, you're ex-girl friend is miles ahead of you.

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Okaaaaay.

You have never met either of these people and you automatically assume his ex-girlfriend was right?

Have you even been to an AA meeting? If you haven't, then you have NO IDEA what goes on.

I went to CA meetings (cocaine annonymous - a branch of AA, exact same format, similar 12 steps). All they were to me was buddy buddy hug sessions. Most of the meetings were as follows. About 10-20 minutes to blather about the last meeting or 'events' coming up. Then some chit chat about addiction for 10 minutes. Then often someone would come up and spend 20 minutes talking about his/her 'war stories' of what he/she has gone through (like we have all not been their ourselves), then they would have a break, then they would give out the pins (for numbers of days clean), then they would spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about the upcoming CA event and how much they need volunteers. It's just a love in. How the hell does that deal with the underlying causes of our addictions?
Now, I will say, once in a while they would break into small groups and people would talk more in depth about their problems...that I thought was helpful. But it was only once in a while that they would do that.

Yes, if you want 'love and support' (yeah - like it's real love) and people to tell you how swell you are even though you are probably a thief or a mooch because that is the only way you can afford to feed your habit...then that is the place to go.
Me? I want a place where people are supportive but aren't smiling all the time and telling you you are great and a good person. Most crack addicts are not good people. They could become good people. But most are either neglecting their responsibilities or are performing illegal acts to feed their habit; people that would steal from their mother to feed their addiction - these are not good people (though again - they still could become good people).
I want the truth. I want the blunt truth from people that care but are not blind.

And in the end - the only place I could find that was from a mirror.

IMO, AA/CA are just love ins for starry eyed, weak addicts who cannot/will not quit on their own...all funded by the church to try and get more people into the God Club.

If they work for you - fine. But please ask yourself, how can you say you have truly quit if you still need these meetings to keep clean. You have traded one addiction for another (granted, one is FAR better then the other).
You will never truly be free of your habit until you can deal with it on your own. And I believe that the vast majority of people can do that but - like anything truly worthwhile - it is not easy.
And there is the problem. Most addicts want the easy way out (that is usually why they are addicts), and intensive, self-reflection is NOT the easy way out.
But it is - IMO - the only way to truly get out forever.

Nightrider said:

My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

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It's cult like behavior isn't really a new observation
Is Alcoholics Anonymous a Cult
Cult Test, AA Answers 0
Charlie Sheen Turns On The Cult - And Feels The Wrath of Alcoholics Anonymous - The Clean Slate Addiction Site
Cult or cure: the AA backlash - Life and Style - The Independent
The AA is out of step with research on addiction

CaptainCourtesy said:

You obviously don't understand the concept of AA, of recovery, or of addiction. You didn't "quit". No one does. It's not a crutch. It assistance to remain in recovery from a serious disorder.

And as far as it being a "Christian recruitment" group, the only folks I've ever heard who've said that are militant atheists who really don't understand AA. The "higher power" doesn't have to mean a deity. I can give several examples of people who I knew who used something completely different as their "higher power". AA often gets criticized for using "God", but there are meetings that omit the higher power from it's literature.

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Oh great...some know-it-all counsellor who just because he makes money off of other people's misery and apparently thinks he understands it all.

Gee like I have not run into this type before...not.

Having dealt with you before I will not waste my time trying to convince you of anything...the effort would be wasted.

What I will say is that if you need something external to stop you from using again, then that external thing IS a crutch. To say it is not is just counselling gobbledegook that your types use so that those you 'help' feel good about these crutches they use.
And yes, people do quit. If you have not used for 12 years, then you have quit for the 12 years...by the very definition of quit. Yes, you are still an addict...but you have quit. But like anything you quit, you can always start doing it again. Until you die, nothing you quit is forever.

And, once again, if you have never been addicted to the 'drug' in question (booze, drugs, food, porn, whatever) then it is you who does not understand the subject.
It is the height of arrogance and ignorance to have never done something and then to turn around and tell someone who has done that thing that you know better then they do what they are going through and that you know better then they do how to stop it.

What's next? Assuming you are a man, are you going to tell women how you know better then they do what childbirth feels like?

:roll:

Go back to your practice and make more money telling other people about things you have never experienced yourself pal.

We are done here as I am not wasting another minute on your know-it-all, arrogant nonsense.

Good day.

Removable Mind said:

Everybody is addicted to something. I'd be willing to bet you're addicted to the air in your car's tires.

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It's only an addiction when it's unhealthy.

paddymcdougall said:

That seems like a good, practical approach.

If people need AA and it works for them - great. But people are different, and everyone needs different approaches.

I'm also not sure I buy the "one drink will send you right back into the gutter" thing. Again - some people, yes. Others - maybe just need some help to cut back rather than give it up. Like with eating - find out what the triggers are that make one overeat/drink too much and work to avoid those triggers. No one says obese people can't ever eat food again; we don't even say you can never eat a dessert again.

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Well, there is one big difference between overeating and drinking alcohol. You can prevent falling back into alcohol addiction by never touching another drop again. However you cannot stop eating so avoiding the problems with overeating is much more difficult IMHO.

The saying is true, one drink will send you back to your addiction. Maybe not the first one drink, or the second one drink, but it is the third/fourth/fifth one drink that will send you back to your addiction. Because the problem is with addictions, you cannot do "moderation" when it comes to your alcohol intake, if you were able to do that you would not be an alcoholic addict in the first place.

Cephus said:

It's only an addiction when it's unhealthy.

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Emotionally or physically? Or both? Or perhaps when you've become so dependent on something that it forces to you go to whatever length necessary to you regain access to whatever your addicted to. You can live without a car if you had to. You're just not willing to give up its conveniences.

Removable Mind said:

Emotionally or physically? Or both? Or perhaps when you've become so dependent on something that it forces to you go to whatever length necessary to you regain access to whatever your addicted to. You can live without a car if you had to. You're just not willing to give up its conveniences.

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Both. But nobody is addicted to their car. People don't refuse to get out of the car because they want to be with it so much.

Cephus said:

Both. But nobody is addicted to their car. People don't refuse to get out of the car because they want to be with it so much.

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Of course people are addicted to their cars. A better way of framing it is that they are "dependent" on their cars.

Ask a random person to not drive their car for a week and use public transportation. He or she make every excuse possible to not use public transportation. They'll become defiant and possibly emotionally distraught. Anxiety will kick in. They'll say that they don't use their car out of convenience, but out of necessity. Yadda, yadda, yadda...but in the end, it's their fix.

Take someone's refrigerator away for a month. Or washer/dryer. It would cause people to change how that shop for food and preserve perishables. It was cause people use laundromats. The means changing their routines . What a hassle, right?

Nightrider said:

My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.

Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.

AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).

I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:

AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.

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Sorry you had a bad experience. AA certainly isn't the answer or effective for everybody, but it has proved to be the answer and effective for hundreds of thousands even though the overall percentage of those who are able to stay clean and sober for five years is pretty small.

Nobody sets out to be an alcoholic. Many who drink a lot never become alcoholic but statistics suggest that about 1 in 10 people who drink, whether they drink moderately or a lot, are genetically susceptible to alcoholism. And at some point, early, midlife, or late, they will cross an invisible line into alcoholism. And it is a bonafide, medically recognized disease that affects a person physically, mentally, and spiritually.

Those who have strong, intelligent support and encouragement and incentive in their professional, personal, and social lives will be more likely to succeed than those who do not have that. By the time some are willing to get help, they have already estranged themselves from such support. Those who depend on their old drinking buddies for socialization are far more likely to slip and relapse. It takes awhile to get the program whether it is AA for the alcoholic or Al-anon for their loved ones. Many don't stick around long enough to 'get it' and those are the ones more likely to hold such self-help support groups in contempt. And of course there are always those who a) won't admit they have a problem or b) refuse to think alcoholism is a disease rather than a moral weakness or c) are convinced they don't need help to get and stay sober.

There are no guarantees no matter what means a person uses to get sober. It takes very little to break sobriety and it simply is going to happen for many. We are a drinking society and the temptation is everywhere. The last studies I saw, however, show that those who stay sober for four or more years are less likely to choose to slip or relapse than those who have less time in sobriety.

But I give AA a strong thumbs up for the positive benefit it has been for many, many thousands of individuals.

Removable Mind said:

Of course people are addicted to their cars. A better way of framing it is that they are "dependent" on their cars.

Ask a random person to not drive their car for a week and use public transportation. He or she make every excuse possible to not use public transportation. They'll become defiant and possibly emotionally distraught. Anxiety will kick in. They'll say that they don't use their car out of convenience, but out of necessity. Yadda, yadda, yadda...but in the end, it's their fix.

Take someone's refrigerator away for a month. Or washer/dryer. It would cause people to change how that shop for food and preserve perishables. It was cause people use laundromats. The means changing their routines . What a hassle, right?

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Addiction and dedication are two different things. I don't use public transportation because public transportation doesn't do what I need done. I am no addicted to my car, it is the proper tool for the job that I need done. A hassle and addiction are not the same.

Cephus said:

Addiction and dedication are two different things. I don't use public transportation because public transportation doesn't do what I need done. I am no addicted to my car, it is the proper tool for the job that I need done. A hassle and addiction are not the same.

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Denial works great for a lot of people...