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Alberta vs. Quebec and Equalization

Carjosse

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So the recent tensions between Alberta and Quebec, due to policy differences and equalization payments though I think it is more the Prairies vs the Rest of Canada (RoC). I found this article from the Globe and Mail which explains that equalization is still not unfair even if Alberta's economy is suffering and has ballooning deficits.

Basically the article points out that if Alberta taxed at the average national rate, it would bring in the most money of the provinces which is why they still have to pay the equalization while Quebec is one of the lowest. The problem is Alberta does not tax at the national average rate, which is also the major contributing issue behind its deficits.

Not to mention that it is not the RoC's fault that Alberta chose to put all of its economic eggs into the oil basket and oil failed. I don't see why Canada should bail Alberta out for problems it inflicted on itself though Alberta cannot seem to make up its mind on whether it wants to be bailed out or prove how strong and independent it is.
 

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So the recent tensions between Alberta and Quebec, due to policy differences and equalization payments though I think it is more the Prairies vs the Rest of Canada (RoC). I found this article from the Globe and Mail which explains that equalization is still not unfair even if Alberta's economy is suffering and has ballooning deficits.

Basically the article points out that if Alberta taxed at the average national rate, it would bring in the most money of the provinces which is why they still have to pay the equalization while Quebec is one of the lowest. The problem is Alberta does not tax at the national average rate, which is also the major contributing issue behind its deficits.

Not to mention that it is not the RoC's fault that Alberta chose to put all of its economic eggs into the oil basket and oil failed. I don't see why Canada should bail Alberta out for problems it inflicted on itself though Alberta cannot seem to make up its mind on whether it wants to be bailed out or prove how strong and independent it is.

Do you folks have any competent national leaders up there who can adjudicate and fix this?

Is there no one?
 

Lord Tammerlain

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So the recent tensions between Alberta and Quebec, due to policy differences and equalization payments though I think it is more the Prairies vs the Rest of Canada (RoC). I found this article from the Globe and Mail which explains that equalization is still not unfair even if Alberta's economy is suffering and has ballooning deficits.

Basically the article points out that if Alberta taxed at the average national rate, it would bring in the most money of the provinces which is why they still have to pay the equalization while Quebec is one of the lowest. The problem is Alberta does not tax at the national average rate, which is also the major contributing issue behind its deficits.

Not to mention that it is not the RoC's fault that Alberta chose to put all of its economic eggs into the oil basket and oil failed. I don't see why Canada should bail Alberta out for problems it inflicted on itself though Alberta cannot seem to make up its mind on whether it wants to be bailed out or prove how strong and independent it is.

So Alberta money is acceptable for Quebec to take (money generated by dirty oil) but not the dirty oil itself


Quebec is trying to kill the golden goose, by preventing it from feeding
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Provinces in Canada have in some area's more power than US states. Alberta and Quebec (and most of eastern Canada) have not really got along since the early 1980s. The federal government can not really do much to make the provinces get along. Quebec (not recently) has had a strong separatist movement and nearly voted to leave in 95, 49.4% voted to leave. Since the NEP in the early 80s Alberta has had a strong dislike for the federal government and eastern Canada

So no, no national leaders will have the power to fix this.
 

Carjosse

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Do you folks have any competent national leaders up there who can adjudicate and fix this?

Is there no one?

What exactly do you see as the problem, equalization is meant to move money from wealthier provinces to poorer ones so that there can be equal quality of social services across Canada. Alberta was okay with it when it didn't have to pay into it. It is a spat between provinces, not the federal government's jurisdiction.
 

Carjosse

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So Alberta money is acceptable for Quebec to take (money generated by dirty oil) but not the dirty oil itself


Quebec is trying to kill the golden goose, by preventing it from feeding

Quebec has no political will to do so, especially a new government. Why can't Alberta just institute a sales tax or raise income taxes like every other province?
 

Lord Tammerlain

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Quebec has no political will to do so, especially a new government. Why can't Alberta just institute a sales tax or raise income taxes like every other province?

Why? If Alberta was able to get its oil to coastal ports, through pipelines, the deficit in Alberta would shrink quite a bit. That is being prevented by Quebec and BC. why should Alberta money, which is sourced heavily from oil, be used to subsidize Quebec, when Quebec is doing what it can to stop the sale of Alberta oil. Dont like the oil, don't take the money that comes from the oil
 

Carjosse

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Why? If Alberta was able to get its oil to coastal ports, through pipelines, the deficit in Alberta would shrink quite a bit. That is being prevented by Quebec and BC. why should Alberta money, which is sourced heavily from oil, be used to subsidize Quebec, when Quebec is doing what it can to stop the sale of Alberta oil. Dont like the oil, don't take the money that comes from the oil

Because they are two different mechanisms. Whether you like it or not BC and Quebec have the power to block Alberta's oil and the people of both provinces do not support it, can't force other provinces to take what they don't want. I bet if BC and Quebec were forcing something on Alberta, Alberta would not be happy about that. Alberta was okay with and benefited from equalization for decades, only once it actually had to start paying into it has it become less supportive.

How about instead Alberta solves the problem themselves and increase taxes instead of whining about the rest of Canada not playing ball because their bad investment in the past finally caught up to them. Alberta is blaming everyone but itself for its problems. Alberta should not have to rely on putting pipelines on provinces who do not support it. If the government of Alberta didn't mismanage the economy for decades, it would not the problems it has today.
 
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Lord Tammerlain

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Because they are two different mechanisms. Whether you like it or not BC and Quebec have the power to block Alberta's oil and the people of both provinces do not support it, can't force other provinces to take what they don't want. I bet if BC and Quebec were forcing something on Alberta, Alberta would not be happy about that. Alberta was okay with and benefited from equalization for decades, only once it actually had to start paying into it has it become a problem.

How about instead Alberta's solves the problem themselves and increase taxes instead of whining about the rest of Canada not playing ball because their bad investment in the past finally caught up to them. Alberta is blaming everyone but itself for its problems.

The bad investment is only bad because the oil can not get to market. The pipelines are not being blocked because of Alberta policies, but those of governments beyond its control. Certainly not the fault of Alberta

Yes Alberta took in equalization payments before, and that has stopped for decades. Alberta now has been providing funding for equalization payments to other provinces and the source of that money has come from oil and gas. Remove oil and gas and Alberta would be collecting instead of providing. Quebec in its idiocy wants to kill the source of the funding for its equalization payments.


The people of Quebec should get of their lazy butts, get to work and stop sucking on Alberta's teat, when it is trying to kill the cow at the same time
 

Carjosse

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The bad investment is only bad because the oil can not get to market. The pipelines are not being blocked because of Alberta policies, but those of governments beyond its control. Certainly not the fault of Alberta

Yes Alberta took in equalization payments before, and that has stopped for decades. Alberta now has been providing funding for equalization payments to other provinces and the source of that money has come from oil and gas. Remove oil and gas and Alberta would be collecting instead of providing. Quebec in its idiocy wants to kill the source of the funding for its equalization payments.


The people of Quebec should get of their lazy butts, get to work and stop sucking on Alberta's teat, when it is trying to kill the cow at the same time

It is Alberta's fault their entire economy relies on oil. If they diversified, the pipeline would not matter. You are blaming Quebec and BC for a problem Alberta refused to fix.

So now that Alberta has to pay it is unjust and provinces that take it are lazy? Westerners always seem to think they are the most important part of the country and should get everything they want. Alberta is the one whining about the sovereignty for other provinces to try and get a pipeline built.
 
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It is Alberta's fault their entire economy relies on oil. If they diversified, the pipeline would not matter. You are blaming Quebec and BC for a problem Alberta refused to fix.

No I am blaming Quebec for taking dirty money that is generated from dirty oil which they do not want to get to market. So that Alberta can make the dirty money which then Quebec uses to fund their programs with.

They want more money from Alberta, but are working to prevent Alberta from making more money.

Remember it is Alberta's oil that is providing Quebec with 11 billion dollars in equalization payments. Perhaps if Quebec made their economy stronger they would not need dirty Alberta money
 

Carjosse

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No I am blaming Quebec for taking dirty money that is generated from dirty oil which they do not want to get to market. So that Alberta can make the dirty money which then Quebec uses to fund their programs with.

They want more money from Alberta, but are working to prevent Alberta from making more money.

Remember it is Alberta's oil that is providing Quebec with 11 billion dollars in equalization payments. Perhaps if Quebec made their economy stronger they would not need dirty Alberta money

Quebec's economy is booming now, it has lower unemployment than Alberta. Quebec's economy is the best it has been in 40 years.
 

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Quebec's economy is booming now, it has lower unemployment than Alberta. Quebec's economy is the best it has been in 40 years.

Then they do not need Alberta money then do they.

Imagine how well the Quebec economy would be doing with 11 billion less, and how well Alberta's would be with 11 billion more
 

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So the recent tensions between Alberta and Quebec, due to policy differences and equalization payments though I think it is more the Prairies vs the Rest of Canada (RoC). I found this article from the Globe and Mail which explains that equalization is still not unfair even if Alberta's economy is suffering and has ballooning deficits.

Basically the article points out that if Alberta taxed at the average national rate, it would bring in the most money of the provinces which is why they still have to pay the equalization while Quebec is one of the lowest. The problem is Alberta does not tax at the national average rate, which is also the major contributing issue behind its deficits.

Not to mention that it is not the RoC's fault that Alberta chose to put all of its economic eggs into the oil basket and oil failed. I don't see why Canada should bail Alberta out for problems it inflicted on itself though Alberta cannot seem to make up its mind on whether it wants to be bailed out or prove how strong and independent it is.

Equalization payments are essential to the functioning of Canada as a coherent country; without them we end up like the EU where you have perpetually underperforming, hobbled, resentful and increasingly desperate economies like Greece.

Perhaps there is an interesting debate to be had about how equalization payments should be calculated, but there is no question they should exist. In Alberta's case, yes, in light of the fact that they seem to undertax their people, and have not adjusted fiscal policy to account for changes in the economic landscape of oil/gas, I'm not too persuaded by their arguments RE: equalization payments.

That having been said, I have no problems with investing in Alberta to diversify away from fossil fuels as that would, in the long run, make our country stronger as a whole. I have no patience for this contagion of tribal divisiveness sweeping the world, and hope that it never finds a substantive foothold in Canada.
 

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It is Alberta's fault their entire economy relies on oil. If they diversified, the pipeline would not matter. You are blaming Quebec and BC for a problem Alberta refused to fix.

So now that Alberta has to pay it is unjust and provinces that take it are lazy? Westerners always seem to think they are the most important part of the country and should get everything they want. Alberta is the one whining about the sovereignty for other provinces to try and get a pipeline built.

Boy this is just horse ****.
Quebec and the RoC didn't complain when Petro Canada was imposed on Alberta, and now that they have a nice virtue-signalling issue like a pipeline to the coast, they wanna take yet another dump on Alberta. I was born and raised in Southern Alberta and I can tell you, with all honesty, friction between the east and Alberta did not start in the '80's. It started WAY before that with, "We grow the grain. Pay to send it out east to be turned into bread, and then pay to have the bread shipped back to us."

As far as I'm concerned, there should be multiple pipelines being built out to the BC coast, as well as back east for refining and use. The oil wealth of Alberta has huge economic effect nation-wide. We should be completely energy independent. Instead we bicker about the unsightly visage of a gawd-damn pipeline. What a bunch of idiots.
 

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If only Canada had an Electoral College like the USA. Alberta wouldn't be treated as a sheep meant to be sheared.
 

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If only Canada had an Electoral College like the USA. Alberta wouldn't be treated as a sheep meant to be sheared.

Interesting thought...
 

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Boy this is just horse ****.
Quebec and the RoC didn't complain when Petro Canada was imposed on Alberta, and now that they have a nice virtue-signalling issue like a pipeline to the coast, they wanna take yet another dump on Alberta. I was born and raised in Southern Alberta and I can tell you, with all honesty, friction between the east and Alberta did not start in the '80's. It started WAY before that with, "We grow the grain. Pay to send it out east to be turned into bread, and then pay to have the bread shipped back to us."

As far as I'm concerned, there should be multiple pipelines being built out to the BC coast, as well as back east for refining and use. The oil wealth of Alberta has huge economic effect nation-wide. We should be completely energy independent. Instead we bicker about the unsightly visage of a gawd-damn pipeline. What a bunch of idiots.

Before more pipelines we need more refinery capacity. Piping dilbit to refineries in the States which pay Canadian domestic prices and then sell the refined product on the world market makes as much sense as selling raw logs to be milled in Japan and China.
And we need a pipeline straight up the MacKenzie valley to the Arctic Ocean at Tuktoyaktuk. The ice-free season is getting longer all the time and can be extended more with icebreakers and from Tuk ships can go east to Europe or west to Asia.
 
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Grand Mal

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If only Canada had an Electoral College like the USA. Alberta wouldn't be treated as a sheep meant to be sheared.

Jesus, no.
Trust me, there's nowhere else in the world that such a whacky-do electoral system would be tolerated.
 

Grand Mal

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Interesting thought...

First time I ever heard the term, 'Have-not province' it was a reference to Alberta and equalization payments. Then the huge oil boom happened and when Trudeau said that Canadians in the Maritimes shouldn't have to pay world prices for Canadian oil, that Canada needed a 'National Energy Policy', and the response from Alberta was, "Let them freeze in the dark!" Now Albertans complain about the price at the pumps and the bad effect the world market is having on Alberta's economy.
 

Carjosse

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Boy this is just horse ****.
Quebec and the RoC didn't complain when Petro Canada was imposed on Alberta, and now that they have a nice virtue-signalling issue like a pipeline to the coast, they wanna take yet another dump on Alberta. I was born and raised in Southern Alberta and I can tell you, with all honesty, friction between the east and Alberta did not start in the '80's. It started WAY before that with, "We grow the grain. Pay to send it out east to be turned into bread, and then pay to have the bread shipped back to us."

As far as I'm concerned, there should be multiple pipelines being built out to the BC coast, as well as back east for refining and use. The oil wealth of Alberta has huge economic effect nation-wide. We should be completely energy independent. Instead we bicker about the unsightly visage of a gawd-damn pipeline. What a bunch of idiots.

It is almost as if you should have invested in economic activities that do not rely on natural resources. Alberta oil is expensive, in a world with low oil prices it is being edged out by much cheaper alternatives from everywhere, reliance on oil especially high-cost oil was never a good decision.
 

Carjosse

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If only Canada had an Electoral College like the USA. Alberta wouldn't be treated as a sheep meant to be sheared.

We don't have a president, that system does not and could not work.
 

SDET

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We don't have a president, that system does not and could not work.

Any way you slice it, Alberta is being exploited by the East and an effective safeguard needs to be implemented to stop it. Given the economic circumstances, if anything, Quebec should be sending equalization payments to Alberta.
 

Carjosse

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Any way you slice it, Alberta is being exploited by the East and an effective safeguard needs to be implemented to stop it. Given the economic circumstances, if anything, Quebec should be sending equalization payments to Alberta.

Alberta wants to infringe on the sovereignty of other provinces. Like I said in my OP Alberta could very easily get itself out of the hole, it just refuses to because that would require raising taxes.
 

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Alberta wants to infringe on the sovereignty of other provinces. Like I said in my OP Alberta could very easily get itself out of the hole, it just refuses to because that would require raising taxes.

When someone asserts that their fellow citizens are undertaxed, they are off in the weeds. Have you ever considered that Quebeckers are overtaxed instead?
 
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