• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Al Quaida Man of The Year: GEORGE BUSH!

I do have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind:

1) have you ever fought for your country?
2) have you ever protested against a perceived 'wrong'
1) I'm fighting for my country now (I just don't where my gang colors to do it) and 2) in viewing my posts, what the hell else do you think I'm doing.
Unless you have done both and are willing to stick your neck out for the country in which you live I suggest you take an easier tone. Go out and see the world before you judge it... you may not change your views...
I've been to Europe, I've talked to people that are not tainted with a USA, USA, USA slant to them and I certainly welcome opposing points of view. Are you saying that unless I've been in the military, I don't know what I'm talking about. And no one should listen to me.
but you will gain respect once you convince people you know what your talking about by living it not just reading about it...
If yes, then what would you say to these people?

March 19, 2005

Dear Member of Congress,

On the second anniversary of the invasion and occupation of Iraq, this letter is being sent on behalf of Veterans For Peace (VFP), a national organization of military veterans, to appeal for Congressional action to remove George W. Bush and Richard Cheney from the offices of President and Vice-President of the United States, respectively.

We do not make this call lightly and as former members of the U.S. armed forces, we take our responsibilities as citizens very seriously. For that reason we believe that when our government conducts a war of aggression on Iraq and commits a growing and appalling series of what must legally be considered war crimes and crimes against humanity in the execution of that war, it violates Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, the War Crimes Act of 1996 (18 U.S.C. § 2441), and numerous international treaties which are legally binding on our nation.
Seeing this happen, and understanding all too well the suffering it is causing and will continue to cause among our soldiers, their families, the people of Iraq, and the fabric of both our societies, we cannot stand by in complicit silence.

If you will read the relevant sections of the Nuremberg Principles, the Geneva Conventions, and the other treaties this administration has violated (see attached), you will be left with only one conclusion: that this administration's war on Iraq, in addition to being increasingly unpopular among Americans, is an unmistakable violation of our Constitution and federal law which you have sworn to uphold.

In our system, the remedy for such high crimes is clear: this administration must be impeached. We urge you as sincerely and solemnly as possible, to begin impeachment proceedings against President Bush and Vice-President Cheney in the House of Representatives and follow that with a trial in the Senate. In the name of humanity we beseech and direct you to act.
Most Urgently,

David Cline, President
 
Last edited:
Naughty Nurse said:
Yeah, but I bet even you are confused as to your real identity!
geez... enough of the psycho-babel already, stop twisting words and put your fork tounge back in your mouth.

Billo_Really Your absolutely right! But who ever said, "If your anti-Bush, your pro-Clinton!" Clinton made mistakes too. But would you just stop this crap of defending Bush with appeals to Clinton. It's irrational, illogical and says more about YOU than what your trying to say. What Clinton did has nothing to do with the Crimes of Bush!
says more about me...? I'm plain spoken, whatever you dig from between the lines is of your own creation.
I voted for Bush but I have many complaints about his decisions and this war, though they are probably very different from yours. I am not going to defend him like I agree with everything he does. GW is the most liberal Republican president this country has ever seen.

As far as the terrorists are concerned, unlike you I don't care "why" I care "how".
How can we stop them, how can we keep our Country safe, how did we fail to defend ourselves in the past, and how can we prevent similarities in the future.
Why is the wrong question to ask. If you are asking why with intent to change something we are doing (regardless of if it is good or not) then the terrorists have us. That will only lead us to slowly conforming to what they want step by step. Appeasement is not the answer!
 
What Clinton did has nothing to do with the Crimes of Bush!

To Billo_Really: What I said is that Bush has had to fix Clinton's mistakes, and then you say that Bush is committing crimes. Clinton does have a huge affect on what is happening today. Bush is trying to fix the economy that Clinton left to rot, and all the problems in the middle east that Clinton ignored. If you ask me is a greater crime to not stop Bin Laden when Clinton had a chance, and to ruin the economy; then it is for Bush to start a war to stop terrorism, and help the economy get back up to speed.

And it is completely obvious where Bluestateredneck stands on political issues.
 
Bush is trying to fix the economy that Clinton left to rot
Are you on acid! We had a balanced budget with Clinton! We had (8) years of growth under Clinton! Stop talking to me like I'm a fool. And stop lying to yourself. This isn't Disneyworld.
then it is for Bush to start a war to stop terrorism, and help the economy get back up to speed.
This Administration has been one of the most fiscal irresponsible Administrations we have ever had! When you went to school, was in a long bus, or a short bus!
 
quote from Bluestateredneck:
As far as the terrorists are concerned, unlike you I don't care "why" I care "how". How can we stop them, how can we keep our Country safe, how did we fail to defend ourselves in the past, and how can we prevent similarities in the future.
You are not going to find out "how", until you get to the bottom of how it is caused. Unless you address the cause, the effect will never go away. But this is the hard part. Because you have to question you own patriotism and how you view America. It is still very hard for me to think about the possibility that my country can commit atrocities. It wasn't until several flags went up after Bush got elected, that I started to notice. Then if you look for evidence, you won't go to far before you start finding it. But you have to want to know. For me, blind trust in ones government is un-American.
 
Last edited:
Let me repeat what I said: Clinton left the economy to rot for George to fix. Here is a graph and from 1992 to 2000 which was during and at end of Clinton's administration the dividend yield was at its lowest. When George came into office the economy started to regain its strength. So you are wrong early into Clinton's administration the economy was doing ok, but later in his last term he let the economy go downhill. So Billo Really you must be on acid. Typical Liberal you don't bother looking at the facts before you make an opinion tisk tisk. Btw the source that made the graph is at the bottem of the graph.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media/graphics/schafferimages/image004.gif
 
Last edited:
but later in his last term he let the economy go downhill.
We had a balanced budget for the first time in years under Clinton. I was employed the entire length of his Presidency. Its funny, Clinton didn't do all the spending for Bush. The current Administration has put this nation into such a deficit, that this IS the biggest threat to America. Over and beyond this phoney war on terror. How can we start with a balanced budget and be in so much debt now, and its all Clinton's fault. Grow up! Clinton didn't break the law by allowing no-bid contracts to be awarded to Haliberton who conveniently lost track of 243m and now has overcharged the government 1 billion and gets away with it because of a conflict of interest with Chaney.
 
Last edited:
Billo_Really said:
You are not going to find out "how", until you get to the bottom of how it is caused. Unless you address the cause, the effect will never go away. But this is the hard part. Because you have to question you own patriotism and how you view America. It is still very hard for me to think about the possibility that my country can commit atrocities. It wasn't until several flags went up after Bush got elected, that I started to notice. Then if you look for evidence, you won't go to far before you start finding it. But you have to want to know. For me, blind trust in ones government is un-American.
You are missing the point. You and I may very well agree on things this country is doing wrong in foreign or domestic policy but that is not the issue. If these things are changed to make the terrorists like us we start down the path towards conformity and appeasement. Policies should be changed because they are bad policies, not so we can stop being attacked. Once the terrorists had that foot hole they would raise the bar a bit further every chance they had and so would be our fall to their will.
 
If these things are changed to make the terrorists like us we start down the path towards conformity and appeasement.
I'm not saying we change things to be liked, I'm saying we need to stop exporting our way of life to country's that don't want it. I'm saying we need to stop torturing children. We need to stop bombing hospitals...shooting journalists...shooting peaceful protesters...killing innocent Iraqi's...violating International law...making up words so we don't have to follow the Geneva Convention. If terrorists like this, so be it. If they don't, so what.

A large segment of the world is accusing US of Crimes against Humanity. What does it take for someone to realize that the problem is, in part, with the US? Not the whole problem, just the part for which we are responsible. Attacking Iraq is the most cowardly war we have ever entered. There was no legitimate reason to attack. How does one justify the incarceration and torture of children? Worse, why would someone assume the sources (Amnesty International, Veterans For Peace, Physicians Against Torture, former detainees) that state this are lying, and just look the other way? And worse yet, why would someone look the other way and choose to believe a source that has lied, and continues to lie?

Policies should be changed because they are bad policies, not so we can stop being attacked.
This, I agree with.

What do you think Thomas Paine would think of Bush, Chaney and Rumsfeld?
 
Last edited:
I think we will just have to agree to disagree my friend. I do not align myself anywhere near your "blame America first" convictions. I also do not think that America is blameless and that we do nothing wrong.
I'm not interested in debating all the allegations you listed as it would be a "your source is lying, no yours is" empty discussion.
I do have one question though, if you are so passionate about human life what do you have to say about what the terrorists do to us, what Saddam has done? The torture chambers and mass graves in Iraq, the use of WMD's on the Iranians and Northern Kurds by Saddam? Terrorists teaching children the honors of suicide bombing? If you are going to be fair the same detest should apply to anyone you believe responsible for such acts.
 
I do have one question though, if you are so passionate about human life what do you have to say about what the terrorists do to us, what Saddam has done? The torture chambers and mass graves in Iraq, the use of WMD's on the Iranians and Northern Kurds by Saddam? Terrorists teaching children the honors of suicide bombing? If you are going to be fair the same detest should apply to anyone you believe responsible for such acts.
Hussein was sick and sadistic. I hope he gets what he deserves....a trial by his peers. Iraq and Iran used WMD's on each other. But wouldn't have if US companies would not have sold them the basic chemicals [I said companies, not government!]. I believe you don't teach children suicide bombing because you like it. There is a driving force behind that level of hate. And yes, I agree, and detest ANYONE that commits these acts. I just get a little more angry when it is my countryman.

Just for a nano-second, think about this [you don't have to agree], Bush and Chaney used to quote Amnesty International. Now, all of a sudden, their FOS. Former detainees that speak about abuses they received, should not be treated like a terrorist that is making things up to get back at his captors. Because, if he was released by those very same captors, then it is logical to assume he is not a terrorist. And who would know better, than the person being tortured. And lastly, how could anyone think the "Physicians..." have any political affiliations.

I have know problem with disagreement. Although, I do see your point.
 
Last edited:
Just for a nano-second, think about this [you don't have to agree], Bush and Chaney used to quote Amnesty International. Now, all of a sudden, their FOS. Former detainees that speak about abuses they received, should not be treated like a terrorist that is making things up to get back at his captors. Because, if he was released by those very same captors, then it is logical to assume he is not a terrorist. And who would know better, than the person being tortured. And lastly, how could anyone think the "Physicians..." have any political affiliations.
I'm not with ya on this one and don't assume I am some blind Bush supporter, I could fill your ears with my Bush complaints.
As far as being more upset with such acts by our own countrymen, I agree and see your point.
I will always give America or Americans the benefit of the doubt as I have a faith and trust in the common decency of all Americans and will be quick to disbelieve any accusations of atrocities with out specific and detailed evidence. Call it ignorance if you like but I will always remain positive and hopeful that the majority of Americans are good moral people.
 
will be quick to disbelieve any accusations of atrocities with out specific and detailed evidence.
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.

Call it ignorance if you like but I will always remain positive and hopeful that the majority of Americans are good moral people.
Me too. This is what I'm counting on to impeach Bush!
 
Last edited:
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
Ha! LOL... I hope you're not play'n Yoda on me!
I'm no padawan my friend, there are masters on both sides!
Me too. This is what I'm counting on to impeach Bush!
Ouch... I don't see it happening, you may just have to continue gritting your teeth until Billary starts her screaming for election.... oops, sorry I forgot she already has :2razz:
 
Ha! LOL... I hope you're not play'n Yoda on me!
I'm no padawan my friend, there are masters on both sides!
That's not my point. You are not going to find anything, until you look! Which is something you haven't done. Why? Because its more convenient to think red, white and blue than it is to think red, black and blue.

In the words of JFK, "...the hottest places in hell are reserved for those that see injustice, and do nothing about it."
 
Last edited:
Billo_Really said:
That's not my point. You are not going to find anything, until you look! Which is something you haven't done. Why? Because its more convenient to think red, white and blue than it is to think red, black and blue.

In the words of JFK, "...the hottest places in hell are reserved for those that see injustice, and do nothing about it."
This would be true for us if we continued to allow the Iraqi torture chambers to be filled, innocent men, woman, and children to be murdered, and any Al Qaeda members to continue to pursue their murderous goals.

""I planted myself upon the truth, and the truth only, so far as I knew it, or could be brought to know it."
“When you look for the bad in mankind expecting to find it, you surely will.”
Abraham Lincoln
 
Originally posted by BlueStateRedneck:
This would be true for us if we continued to allow the Iraqi torture chambers to be filled, innocent men, woman, and children to be murdered, and any Al Qaeda members to continue to pursue their murderous goals
I'm going to say this one last god-damn time. Stop tying Al Qaida to Iraq. Even the Bush Administration has admitted there are no links to be found. This is not the truth I seek.
 
Last edited:
There is still a lot of insurgence in Iraq, which are posing a great threat to Iraqi's security and freedom; Also to the rest of the world.
 
Billo_Really said:
I'm going to say this one last god-damn time. Stop tying Al Qaida to Iraq. Even the Bush Administration has admitted there are no links to be found. This is not the truth I seek.

The commission looking into the causes of the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States did not conclude that claims by the Bush administration of ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were pure myth, as many newspaper headlines and broadcast reports asserted. As the vice chairman of the panel, Lee Hamilton, stated, "There were connections between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's government. We don't disagree on that."

Jeff Birnbaum of The Washington Post wrote: "The staff report (of the 9/11 Commission) indicates that there was considerable interaction between Bin Laden and Iraq ... it was clear that they're fellow travelers." Commission co-chair Thomas Kean said, "What we have found is, were there contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes, some of them were shadowy - but they were there."
This is far removed from the headlines that screamed "Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed" (Washington Post); "Panel Finds No Qaeda-Iraq Tie" (New York Times); "No Signs of Iraq-Al-Qaeda Ties Found" (Los Angeles Times).

You want proof?...How about the words of the Chairman & the Vice-Chairman of the 9/11 Commission you stupid, blind, ignorant phuck!
 
Even if there were no connections between Al Qaeda and Saddam, Saddam wouldn't have tried to stop terrorists activities in Iraq. Billo Really gave a perfect example of typical liberal. Where they make an opinion before they address the facts.
 
Last edited:
Originally posted by cnredd:
The commission looking into the causes of the 9/11 terror attacks on the United States did not conclude that claims by the Bush administration of ties between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda were pure myth, as many newspaper headlines and broadcast reports asserted. As the vice chairman of the panel, Lee Hamilton, stated, "There were connections between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's government. We don't disagree on that."

Jeff Birnbaum of The Washington Post wrote: "The staff report (of the 9/11 Commission) indicates that there was considerable interaction between Bin Laden and Iraq ... it was clear that they're fellow travelers." Commission co-chair Thomas Kean said, "What we have found is, were there contacts between Al Qaeda and Iraq? Yes, some of them were shadowy - but they were there."
This is far removed from the headlines that screamed "Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed" (Washington Post); "Panel Finds No Qaeda-Iraq Tie" (New York Times); "No Signs of Iraq-Al-Qaeda Ties Found" (Los Angeles Times).

You want proof?...How about the words of the Chairman & the Vice-Chairman of the 9/11 Commission you stupid, blind, ignorant phuck!
What contacts? Why do they not explain the nature of the "contacts". Its just a blanket statement that is not proven unless they explain what these contacts are. This is far to general to use as proof. Contacts! Nice try!
 
Originally posted by Messerschmitt:
Even if there were no connections between Al Qaeda and Saddam, Saddam wouldn't have tried to stop terrorists activities in Iraq. Billo Really gave a perfect example of typical liberal. Where they make an opinion before they address the facts.
Are you saying a Secular Dictator and an Islamic Fundamentalist join forces for the first time in history. Hussein couldn't do anything. He was crippled since the first Persian Gulf war. He barely had running water and electricity. How the hell could he sponsor terrorism. Also, I'm not a liberal.
 
Billo_Really said:
Are you saying a Secular Dictator and an Islamic Fundamentalist join forces for the first time in history. Hussein couldn't do anything. He was crippled since the first Persian Gulf war. He barely had running water and electricity. How the hell could he sponsor terrorism. Also, I'm not a liberal.

And Michael Moore is anorexic...

How could Saddam sponsor terrorism? He was giving the equivalent of $25,000 to the family of every Palestinian homicide bomber. He built more palaces in the last five years than in the previous 25. You probably won't consider them facts until Saddam knocks on your door and says it with a megaphone...then you'll probably be just "skeptical".

And if you can't accept the words of the chairman & the vice-chairman of the 9/11 commission, then this discussion has ended.

You will only believe what you want to believe. You are not interested in debate; you are interested in divisiveness...You never say "Are conservatives corrupt?", which would be a fair question...you say "Prove to me conservatives aren't corrupt!", automatically putting all conservatives in a defensive mode...Your ideology is warped, your debating skills are worthless, and lack of objectivity is downright childish for a debate site...Howard Dean could use some stooges for next year's election...Oh yeah...you're not a liberal.
 
Billo_Really said:
Are you saying a Secular Dictator and an Islamic Fundamentalist join forces for the first time in history.

Are you saying that the Leader of the so-called Superior Aryan Race would be in cahoots with Italians & Asians?...That could never happen either....
 
Back
Top Bottom