Aggressive Panhandlers, how should they be delt with? (1 Viewer)

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

Dear Moderators: Please find a suitable home for this topic, I don't know where else to put it

Here's the scenario,

Guy parks his car, steps out, and is immediately approached by aggressive beggers and is surrounded. He warns that he has a gun, pulls it out, and opens fire when they don't back off. He kills atleast one.



He is being tried..

His defense "What would happen to me if I didn't give them any money?"
"I don't know how far these people will go into taking whatever it is that they want from me"
More Details of the Incident: He was surround unexpectedly. Strange people do not do this in normal circumstances. This caused him to understand that this is not a normal circumstance, therefore any actions that he takes will be under the assumption that this isnt a normal circumstance. Why is this important? because a person can only tell of anothers intentions by their language, verbal and body, so if these people are acting abnormal, aggressive, and in an intimidating way, it is only natural and Normal for him, the victum, to assume their hostility, for survival is the issue. All he is doing is responding to their abnormal actions, which go agaisnt all socieital norms

Did this guy rightfully defend himself?

 

[shuamort]

At what point of immediately getting out of the car and being surrounded did he get far enough away where he didn't decide to not get back into his car?

We've got limited info here and not enough for me to give an answer I'd be comfortable with.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I don't know enough to judge whether or not this was a "clean kill" by legal standards, especially in the kinds of place where things like this normally happen. (They tend to have laws I simply cannot comprehend.)

I do know enough to say I'd consider it a clean kill. They surrounded the man, demanded money, and didn't heed his warning to back away. Takes a whole lot less than that to be "justifiable" in my book.

 

[rathi]

This is purely a legal definition. It depends on how much the actions of the beggars would be considered attacks on the mans life. In certain American States, it might be enough. It Britain it would not.

Determining if what the reasonable assumption that somebody is trying to cause you harm is very difficult.

 

[cherokee]

Well I feel he should have talked to these beggar and tried to move them on to a path of self reliance, to urge them to give up their begging ways.
He was wrong for shooting the beggars. Firing a weapon is dangerous. He could have killed an innocent bystander.






PS.
Using his car to run them down would have been much safer for the public....:mrgreen:

 

[faithful_servant]

Pepper spray. The good stuff that they issue to the police, not the crap they sell at Wal-Mart that works really well for spicing up a bland taco, but the real deal, "knock you flat on your butt" stuff that the cops get to use. My wife carries some on her key chain and it's friggin' potent. She set her keys down on the bench outside a store while she was waiting for me to go through the check out and left them there for a minute while she was talking to a friend. A couple of kids found the spray and fired off about a 1/2 second blast just inside the door. People at the back of the store were tearing up and those of us at the front were in bad shape. Use that on the bums and let them know that if they come near you or your car, they'll get to see what pepper foam does (I like the stuff that stains your skin a nice bright neon pink), stuff sticks like glue and the more you try to get it off, the more it spreads. Even trying to wash it off with water will spread it around.

 

[Diogenes]

Well I feel he should have talked to these beggar and tried to move them on to a path of self reliance, to urge them to give up their begging ways.

I used to work in a federal courthouse (before Oklahoma City) that was overrun with street people. During noon hour, one of my co-workers - a big guy with a pronounced Norwegian accent - was approached in the crowded lobby by a bum who muttered "Got a quarter?" Pete stuck his hands in his pockets, rocked back on his heels, and very loudly replied "Why yes! I've got lots of quarters. Why don't you get a job so you can have some too?"

The bum looked disgusted and left the building. I doubt that Pete moved him very far toward self-reliance, but I didn't see that particular bum around again... :mrgreen:

 

[jallman]

When I was in college at NCSU, I had an apartment right off Person St back in the Oakwood district. The thing about this district is that it was a very nice neighborhood surrounded on three sides by slums, and on the fourth by the city cemetary. The other thing about it was the Krispy Kreme on the corner of Person and St Mary's and how when I would come home from a drunken pub crawl, the smell of fresh doughnuts would call to me. Often times I would brave the walk to get one of those glazed balls of fried fat. One night walking up to the doughnut shop, a man came across the street at a very rapid pace and approached me in what seemed to me to be an aggressive manner. He then said something about money which translated at 3AM in a slum coming from a stranger as "I am going to rob you". Fight or flight took over...literally both. I struck them man before he could get his hands out of his pockets (I was sure it was a knife he was pulling out) and knocked him to the ground. Then I fled for what I thought was my life.

The following morning the talk of the neighborhood was how the dear old bum who everyone loved was attacked by some street punk. Now, I don't consider myself a street punk, and I certainly didn't consider this guy a dear old man.

 

[cherokee]

I've really one had one run in to an aggressive bum. I pulled into a 7-11 one night and the guy just about tried to craw into my passenger window asking for a $1. He was met with a colt.45. Which he didn’t like or maybe it was the laser in his eye. I'm not really sure.

PS..
jallman is a bum basher.......:lamo

 

[LeftyHenry]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

I've got no problem giving away a dollar to just about anyone who asks for one; however, I'll cut a man's throat before I'll allow him to rob me of a single dime.

 

[Kandahar]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

Why should I finance someone's alcohol addiction or mental illness? There are charities that feed the hungry in Africa that I'm confident would spend my $1 more responsibly than some scuzzy hobo that asked for one.

 

[Synch]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

They didn't earn it, it is not theirs until they pull it from my cold dead hands.

There's not enough information for me to adjudicate this man to the fullest degree, but assuming these homeless men were grabbing him as I inferred from by "aggressive" and also presuming that he fired a warning shot into the air then it could be justifiable, seeing he was going to be overran by hobos.

However if he was not physically threatened by these homeless people and he did not fire a warning shot I'd say he should be duly tried for murder.

 

[NguyenRhymesWithWin]

However if he was not physically threatened by these homeless people and he did not fire a warning shot I'd say he should be duly tried for murder.

okay, in this sistuation..

This is a dark and secluded area, near middle night.
They refuse to take no for an answer
He's being surrounded and trapped by them, making a path would involve having to use phsyical force to go through, he can't go back into his car. You aren't surrounded if you have a Car Door to escape into.
They're arms are extended.
They're aggressive in spoken language and body language.

 

[faithful_servant]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

Have you ever read Muhammad Yunus (Nobel Peace Prize winner) thoughts on giving money to the poor? This guy has done more to help people out of poverty than anyone else on the planet right now and his take on this kind of thing is that it's a BAD thing to do. http://www.odemagazine.com/article.php?aID=4126&l=en

 

[Diogenes]

The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?

We're not stingy, and we donate lots of dollars. All the homeless guy has to do is go down to the local mission to receive the benefits, which do not include alcohol or drugs.

 

[Patrickt]

LeftHenry: "The real question is why are Americans so stingy with their money that they can't give a dollar to a homeless guy?"

No, the real question is why do you insist on referring to a drunken bum who refuses to work a homeless guy? I am supporting a poor family, until the kids finish school, but there are rules. No drunkeness or drugs. It's not negotiable. The reason for this is not that I have a moral objection to being a drunk but rather because giving money to drunks is a total waste of money. Why not just buy a dozen bottles of really cheap booze and hand it out?

 

[Synch]

okay, in this sistuation..

This is a dark and secluded area, near middle night.
They refuse to take no for an answer
He's being surrounded and trapped by them, making a path would involve having to use phsyical force to go through, he can't go back into his car. You aren't surrounded if you have a Car Door to escape into.
They're arms are extended.
They're aggressive in spoken language and body language.

I would then say yes, it was justified.

 

[LeftyHenry]

hmm interesting...

I got the exact response I expected

"Why should I give that subhuman piece of trash a dollar?"

Perhaps we can think beyond the stereotypes?

 

[Kandahar]

hmm interesting...

I got the exact response I expected

"Why should I give that subhuman piece of trash a dollar?"

Perhaps we can think beyond the stereotypes?

What are the primary causes of poverty in the United States? Alcoholism, drug addiction, having too many kids at too early an age, breaking the law, dropping out of high school. What are the primary causes of poverty in Africa? Civil war, bad government, disease, lack of educational opportunities, and lack of infrastructure. Just relying on simple probability, the chances are much greater that the American is to blame for his poverty.

Since I only have a finite amount of money that I'm able/willing to give to the poor, why shouldn't I prioritize, and give it to charities to feed people in Africa, rather than some bum who just asks for a dollar?

If you give $1 to an American panhandler when you could instead give it to charity for Africa, then you have decided it's more important for an alcoholic to get his fix than it is for someone else to eat. There's nothing wrong with that, since it's your money to spend as you like, but don't you dare condemn ME for not making the same decision.

The reason you give $1 to the bum has much more to do with the selfish desire for emotional satisfaction that YOU derive from "helping someone," than it does with altruism.

 

[Voidwar]

hmm interesting...

I got the exact response I expected

"Why should I give that subhuman piece of trash a dollar?"

Perhaps we can think beyond the stereotypes?

You are the only one saying that.

Everyone else just said no, and castigated for not working.

You are the one who got out language like "subhuman trash".

:wow: Revealing, , , quite :wow:

 

[cherokee]

hmm interesting...

I got the exact response I expected

"Why should I give that subhuman piece of trash a dollar?"

Perhaps we can think beyond the stereotypes?

Quick somebody call a wam-bul-lance for che ..oop's I ment henry.