Africa to quit ICC forever

[ecofarm]

the kenyans in the military and the ones who are in their leadership are genocidal psychopaths, sure. They have a long history of massacres in the past decades, especially against somalians.

Kenya became an open democracy in 2003. In 2007 there was post election violence. This past election there was no violence. The country is is a mere decade into multiparty representation. Kenya, later with the help of Ethiopia, the AU and the West, liberated Somalia from Al Shabaab. AlS is striking in Kenya out of desperation, not because they have grown stronger.

 

[Fallenangel]

Kenya became an open democracy in 2003. In 2007 there was post election violence. This past election there was no violence. The country is is a mere decade into multiparty representation. Kenya, later with the help of Ethiopia, the AU and the West, liberated Somalia from Al Shabaab. AlS is striking in Kenya out of desperation, not because they have grown stronger.

Don't really know much about Al Shabab, but I wonder what is your take on this.



Thousands of additional troops urged for force in Somalia - The Washington Post


"Over the past two years, African forces have driven al-Shabab out of Somalia’s main cities, Mogadishu and Kismayo. But the Islamist movement has regrouped, shifting its military strategy from fighting conventional battles and holding major cities to undertaking targeted operations in the country, where it has struck U.N. and foreign diplomatic outposts."


"The military gains of the past two years are “at a serious risk of being reversed,” according to the report. Al-Shabab’s force “is estimated in the thousands and is increasing through forced recruitment.” If it is not stopped, the document warns, “Al Shabab is likely to expand its targets beyond Somalia.”"

Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

Don't really know much about Al Shabab, but I wonder what is your take on this.



Thousands of additional troops urged for force in Somalia - The Washington Post


"Over the past two years, African forces have driven al-Shabab out of Somalia’s main cities, Mogadishu and Kismayo. But the Islamist movement has regrouped, shifting its military strategy from fighting conventional battles and holding major cities to undertaking targeted operations in the country, where it has struck U.N. and foreign diplomatic outposts."


"The military gains of the past two years are “at a serious risk of being reversed,” according to the report. Al-Shabab’s force “is estimated in the thousands and is increasing through forced recruitment.” If it is not stopped, the document warns, “Al Shabab is likely to expand its targets beyond Somalia.”"

Fallen.

I think that's typical "if you fight the terrorists, they will get stronger" BS. AlS has gone from owning the country to a scattered group bombing foreign diplomatic outposts that did not previously exist. I don't see how that is progress for them.

Somalia needed to be liberated for the good of Kenya, Africa and the world; there's really no question if one knows the recent history.

 

[Fallenangel]

I think that's typical "if you fight the terrorists, they will get stronger" BS. AlS has gone from owning the country to bombing foreign diplomatic outposts that did not previously exist.

Dunno, I read the article, and I didn't see anything that resembles the "if you fight the terrorists, they will get stronger" argument.
It, Ban Ki-moon and a report on the issue simply state that despite the efforts so far, Al Shabab is very far from being defeated. Hence, there is a need for further action and forces to prevent their further rise in the region.

EDIT: The attacks on the outposts simply indicate a change in their tactics, they apparently now concentrate their forces in the depth of the country and carry the attacks from there and in there.

Somalia needed to be liberated for the good of Kenya, Africa and the world; there's really no question if one knows the recent history.

Agreed.



Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

Dunno, I read the article, and I didn't see anything that resembles the "if you fight the terrorists, they will get stronger" argument.
It, Ban Ki-moon and a report on the issue simply state that despite the efforts so far, Al Shabab is very far from being defeated. Hence, there is a need for further action and forces to prevent their further rise in the region.

Agreed. I'd send the units.

I thought you were using the article as a counter to success in Somalia, not simply as evidence of continued efforts to see democracy in Somalia.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

I agree. One needs to consider the events that led to the Holocaust. The context of growing anti-Semitic persecution is highly relevant to understanding the Holocaust. The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum provides a succinct timeline and description of some of the events leading up to and during the Holocaust for those who are interested:

Timeline of Events - Before 1933 — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

And, relevant to the argument raised in this thread, the Museum's account notes that Kristallnacht was a "turning point" in Nazi Germany's persecution of Jewish people.

Turning point in that it convinced the Nazi leadership to carry out the Holocaust in secret, as the response by the German public to the Kristallnacht was one of outrage.

 

[Fallenangel]

Agreed. I'd send the units.
I thought you were using the article as a counter to the success in Somalia, not simply as evidence of continued efforts to see democracy in Somalia.

The article went against your specific point that "AlS is striking in Kenya out of desperation, not because they have grown stronger." - it shows that Al Shabab apparently just changed tactics, and now grows stronger.
I would welcome the complete destruction of such groups, but we should never fall for the illusion that just because we don't see them in the big cities anymore it means that they are defeated/destroyed.


Fallen.

 

[LaughAtTheWorld]

As for the topic, I oppose the ICC in the same grounds as I oppose the UN-its ineffectiveness. From basically what I've observed (though the ICC is not my area of interest) the ICC is incredibly slow in delivering "justice" and incompetent. Though I admit freely that I may be wrong and is in a position to receive correction and more information.

 

[ecofarm]

EDIT: The attacks on the outposts simply indicate a change in their tactics, they apparently now concentrate their forces in the depth of the country and carry the attacks from there and in there.

It's a change in tactics resulting from no longer holding the capital and port. From the article:

It proposes that African forces shift from a largely defensive strategy to “an offensive posture necessary for the clearing and holding of additional key rural areas and strategic economic avenues.”

It's just cleaning up. AlS did not decide to give up the cities and most of the country so that they could raid roads from enclaves.

 

[ecofarm]

The article went against your specific point that "AlS is striking in Kenya out of desperation, not because they have grown stronger." - it shows that Al Shabab apparently just changed tactics, and now grows stronger.
I would welcome the complete destruction of such groups, but we should never fall for the illusion that just because we don't see them in the big cities anymore it means that they are defeated/destroyed.

Instead of being in full control of the capital, the port and other major cities, we're gonna withdraw to a few rural areas and strike the enemy on their roads!

Yeah, that's the plan. And they've grown stronger? haha Who needs cities!

 

[Fallenangel]

It's a change in tactics resulting from no longer holding the capital and port. From the article:
It's just cleaning up. AlS did not decide to give up the cities and most of the country so that they could raid roads from enclaves.

Instead of being in full control of the capital, the port and other major cities, we're gonna withdraw to a few rural areas and strike the enemy on their roads!

Yeah, that's the plan. And they've grown stronger? haha Who needs cities!

Actually...
If you are a militia group it is very hard to hold your ground against a structured army forces when you try to hold a specific area - simply because your "troops" are concentrated in that specific area, which in turn makes it easier for structured military forces to act against you.
One of the tactics applied in that case, is just to move out into rural areas, mountains, deserts, spread over larger distances and use the terrain to your advantage - in order to regroup and to carry on your activities from there.


From the same article:
"Over the past two years, African forces have driven al-Shabab out of Somalia’s main cities, Mogadishu and Kismayo. But the Islamist movement has regrouped, shifting its military strategy from fighting conventional battles and holding major cities to undertaking targeted operations in the country, where it has struck U.N. and foreign diplomatic outposts."

"The military gains of the past two years are “at a serious risk of being reversed,” according to the report. Al-Shabab’s force “is estimated in the thousands and is increasing through forced recruitment.” If it is not stopped, the document warns, “Al Shabab is likely to expand its targets beyond Somalia.”

Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

Giving up totalitarian control of the country to make meaningless strikes on roads and embassies. Great plan. I wish every terrorist group in control of cities would do this. Perhaps we can convince the Iranian regime to employ this brilliant strategy. Perhaps Kim will do it.

Hey, Kim, if you just give up the cities to a UN backed democratic transitional government, ambush roads sporadically and bomb embassies that would never exist under your control, you will grow stronger and the Jong revolution will gain strength. Deal?

 

[Fallenangel]

Giving up totalitarian control of the country to make meaningless strikes on roads and embassies. Great plan. I wish every terrorist group in control of cities would do this. Perhaps we can convince the Iranian regime to employ this brilliant strategy. Perhaps Kim will do it.

Hey, Kim, if you just give up the cities to a UN backed democratic transitional government, ambush roads sporadically and bomb embassies that would never exist under your control, you will grow stronger and the Jong revolution will gain strength. Deal?

Nice ridicule of an argument that no one made ....btw I wonder why you "forgot" to quote me.

I"ll just repeat what I've already quoted from the article:

From the same article:
"Over the past two years, African forces have driven al-Shabab out of Somalia’s main cities, Mogadishu and Kismayo. But the Islamist movement has regrouped, shifting its military strategy from fighting conventional battles and holding major cities to undertaking targeted operations in the country, where it has struck U.N. and foreign diplomatic outposts."

"The military gains of the past two years are “at a serious risk of being reversed,” according to the report. Al-Shabab’s force “is estimated in the thousands and is increasing through forced recruitment.” If it is not stopped, the document warns, “Al Shabab is likely to expand its targets beyond Somalia.”


Fallen.

 

[ecofarm]

The point is, Africa is nation building in Somalia. Kenya's involvement with that effort will aid domestic development via UN support, it's another reason why Kenya will not withdraw from the ICC.