Afghanistan remains a problem unsolved.

[Torus34]

The deadline for the removal of the US troops still in Afghanistan, estimated at about 2,5000, is approaching. This deadline was set under the administration of Mr. Donald Trump. It is part of an agreement with the Taliban. As far as I can determine, the Afghanistan government in Kabul was not a signatory.

It's difficult for common citizens like me to form an opinion of what the US, under a new administration, should do. There are, it's rumored, secret clauses to the agreement. If there are, the new Administration will be privy to them. They may be the deciding factor on the path the US chooses, going forward.

President of the United States of America Joseph Biden's plate is certainly full. This poor old country mouse hopes that he has chosen his advisors on some basis other than personal loyalty.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

 

[MamboDervish]

The deadline for the removal of the US troops still in Afghanistan, estimated at about 2,5000, is approaching. This deadline was set under the administration of Mr. Donald Trump. It is part of an agreement with the Taliban. As far as I can determine, the Afghanistan government in Kabul was not a signatory.

It's difficult for common citizens like me to form an opinion of what the US, under a new administration, should do. There are, it's rumored, secret clauses to the agreement. If there are, the new Administration will be privy to them. They may be the deciding factor on the path the US chooses, going forward.

President of the United States of America Joseph Biden's plate is certainly full. This poor old country mouse hopes that he has chosen his advisors on some basis other than personal loyalty.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

IMNSHO, extricating ourselves from the most corrupt country on the planet by negotiating with the Taliban might be the only thing that the traitor Trump got right in his 4 years in office. Biden should do - in a word - nothing. Allow Trump's agreement to go forward as planned, and withdraw all our forces from Afghanistan. They've already been there about a decade too long. Any feeble pretext we had for remaining there expired when Obama expired Usama - way back in the Spring of 2011.

 

[Torus34]

IMNSHO, extricating ourselves from the most corrupt country on the planet by negotiating with the Taliban might be the only thing that the traitor Trump got right in his 4 years in office. Biden should do - in a word - nothing. Allow Trump's agreement to go forward as planned, and withdraw all our forces from Afghanistan. They've already been there about a decade too long. Any feeble pretext we had for remaining there expired when Obama expired Usama - way back in the Spring of 2011.

Hi!

Thank you for taking time to respond to the OP. You have presented a good case for continuing with the agreement with the Taliban. One suggestion might be that we, the United States, maintain a watch on whether the Taliban overthrows the present Kabul government, with a series of viable options should that happen. A Taliban-run Afghanistan might become a training ground for those plotting attacks on the United States.

We [the United States] are pretty good at setting up networks of informers in the Middle East. That's confirmed by the success, from time to time, of our drone strikes. Our eyes in the sky are not sufficient in themselves to identify targets, nu?

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[jonny5]

The deadline for the removal of the US troops still in Afghanistan, estimated at about 2,5000, is approaching. This deadline was set under the administration of Mr. Donald Trump. It is part of an agreement with the Taliban. As far as I can determine, the Afghanistan government in Kabul was not a signatory.

It's difficult for common citizens like me to form an opinion of what the US, under a new administration, should do. There are, it's rumored, secret clauses to the agreement. If there are, the new Administration will be privy to them. They may be the deciding factor on the path the US chooses, going forward.

President of the United States of America Joseph Biden's plate is certainly full. This poor old country mouse hopes that he has chosen his advisors on some basis other than personal loyalty.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

Whats the problem? We went there to kill AQ. We did that. We made the mistake of trying to build the country. That failed. Time to go home. Afghanistan has been the way it is for 2000 years.

 

[noonereal]

Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

I was about to respond to this thread when I read this last line. I prefer not to have a discussion with someone who posts so arrogantly.
Ignore list is a good option for cases like this although I have never used one on any site.

Peace

 

[code1211]

The deadline for the removal of the US troops still in Afghanistan, estimated at about 2,5000, is approaching. This deadline was set under the administration of Mr. Donald Trump. It is part of an agreement with the Taliban. As far as I can determine, the Afghanistan government in Kabul was not a signatory.

It's difficult for common citizens like me to form an opinion of what the US, under a new administration, should do. There are, it's rumored, secret clauses to the agreement. If there are, the new Administration will be privy to them. They may be the deciding factor on the path the US chooses, going forward.

President of the United States of America Joseph Biden's plate is certainly full. This poor old country mouse hopes that he has chosen his advisors on some basis other than personal loyalty.

Regards, stay safe 'n well. Remember the prophylactic Big 3: masks, hand washing and physical distancing.

Reminder. I try to respond to all who quote my posts. If you do not get a response from me, it may be that you've made it onto my 'Ignore' list.

The advisors that Biden has brought on board are the old guard.

We can anticipate another decade or so in the land where "Empires Go To Die".

The Taliban are just strong enough to never lose and just weak enough to never win.

 

[Torus34]

I was about to respond to this thread when I read this last line. I prefer not to have a discussion with someone who posts so arrogantly.
Ignore list is a good option for cases like this although I have never used one on any site.

Peace

Hi!

Thank you for your post! [I really mean that.]

My personal criteria for putting someone on my little list [Background music from, of course, Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado,] are quite limited. Someone posting a personal insult of me will do it. That's someone whose posts I really don't want to read. I will, given enough instances, also add a poster who continuously includes derogatory posts which start, 'All liberals/conservatives/Democrats/progressives/Republicans ...'. I stop looking at their posts because the thinking is insufficiently nuanced to make logical sense. Your post, quoted above, certainly doesn't even come close to insulting me, btw.

If those 'rules' are truly off-putting for you, I'm sorry. They will, though, remain my criteria. Should you put me on your 'ignore' list, it will not decrease my respect for you by one iota.

Regards, and the best to you and yours.

 

[RetiredUSN]

As soon as we are gone, the Taliban will kill all the females in Government and take young girls out of school.

 

[Torus34]

The advisors that Biden has brought on board are the old guard.

We can anticipate another decade or so in the land where "Empires Go To Die".

The Taliban are just strong enough to never lose and just weak enough to never win.

Hi!

Thank you for your post. I note that you have not commented on whether we, the United States, should or should not continue with the existing troop withdrawal agreement.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[MamboDervish]

Hi!

Thank you for taking time to respond to the OP. You have presented a good case for continuing with the agreement with the Taliban. One suggestion might be that we, the United States, maintain a watch on whether the Taliban overthrows the present Kabul government, with a series of viable options should that happen. A Taliban-run Afghanistan might become a training ground for those plotting attacks on the United States.

We [the United States] are pretty good at setting up networks of informers in the Middle East. That's confirmed by the success, from time to time, of our drone strikes. Our eyes in the sky are not sufficient in themselves to identify targets, nu?

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Acknowledged. Pardon the lengthy post, but it clarifies my position.

I have always found it useful to remember that the events of 9/11, which allegedly got us into Afghanistan to begin with, were not the actions of any State, but the actions of a well funded international terrorist organization - in other words, a "criminal" action. As such, it was not an act of war, but an international crime. When US intelligence revealed that the headquarters of the criminal cabal responsible for 9/11 was centered in Afghanistan, it was perfectly reasonable to send out the posse, chase down the cabal, and overthrow the government that gave them sanctuary - accompanied with the stern warning. "Don't let it happen again!" What was NOT reasonable, however, was the idea that it was our job to engage in "nation building", especially one that would involves decades of time, hundreds of gallons of US blood, and TRILLION$ of taxpayer dollar$, turning it into the single most corrupt country on the planet. If those ultimate costs had been revealed to the American electorate 20 years ago, nobody would have sanctioned our invasion, occupation, and breathtakingly corrupt "nation building". When you chase Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid all the way back to "The Hole In The Wall", you don't invade, occupy, and start building a city there. You roust the criminals, and you go back to town.

Intelligence long ago revealed that the actual funding for the terrorist attacks on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia. Should we have invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia? We learned that the planning of the attack was done in Germany. Should we have invaded Germany? We learned that the training of the pilots that flew the planes into the WTC was done right here on US soil! Should we have invaded and occupied ourselves??? The questions, of course, are rhetorical. As we speak, al Qaeda is currently in 22 countries around the world. Do we plan on turning all of them into Afghanistan? Of course not. We should get out of Afghanistan ASAP, and let the Afghanis figure it out themselves - but with the same warning.
"Don't let it happen again - or we'll be back to overthrow you again!" And we'll do it again and again - as often as we have to - until you get your shit together and join the civilized world. But we're never coming back to build McDonald's in Kabul, or Burger King in Kandahar.

 

[MamboDervish]

As soon as we are gone, the Taliban will kill all the females in Government and take young girls out of school.

?? Huh ?? With a population of 39 million people, we don't have enough forces remaining there to prevent that from happening anyway!!
We have no business being there, and haven't for the last 10 years.

 

[Torus34]

As soon as we are gone, the Taliban will kill all the females in Government and take young girls out of school.

Hi!

The quoted post covers two quite different actions. The first is political and extralegal. It's a rare country indeed that doesn't have some sort of law(s) controlling murder. The second, the schooling of women, is cultural. I suggest that we, the US, should think very carefully before taking on the job of changing national cultures that are not connected with attacking other nations.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[Torus34]

Acknowledged. Pardon the lengthy post, but it clarifies my position.

I have always found it useful to remember that the events of 9/11, which allegedly got us into Afghanistan to begin with, were not the actions of any State, but the actions of a well funded international terrorist organization - in other words, a "criminal" action. As such, it was not an act of war, but an international crime. When US intelligence revealed that the headquarters of the criminal cabal responsible for 9/11 was centered in Afghanistan, it was perfectly reasonable to send out the posse, chase down the cabal, and overthrow the government that gave them sanctuary - accompanied with the stern warning. "Don't let it happen again!" What was NOT reasonable, however, was the idea that it was our job to engage in "nation building", especially one that would involves decades of time, hundreds of gallons of US blood, and TRILLION$ of taxpayer dollar$, turning it into the single most corrupt country on the planet. If those ultimate costs had been revealed to the American electorate 20 years ago, nobody would have sanctioned our invasion, occupation, and breathtakingly corrupt "nation building". When you chase Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid all the way back to "The Hole In The Wall", you don't invade, occupy, and start building a city there. You roust the criminals, and you go back to town.

Intelligence long ago revealed that the actual funding for the terrorist attacks on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia. Should we have invaded and occupied Saudi Arabia? We learned that the planning of the attack was done in Germany. Should we have invaded Germany? We learned that the training of the pilots that flew the planes into the WTC was done right here on US soil! Should we have invaded and occupied ourselves??? The questions, of course, are rhetorical. As we speak, al Qaeda is currently in 22 countries around the world. Do we plan on turning all of them into Afghanistan? Of course not. We should get out of Afghanistan ASAP, and let the Afghanis figure it out themselves - but with the same warning.
"Don't let it happen again - or we'll be back to overthrow you again!" And we'll do it again and again - as often as we have to - until you get your shit together and join the civilized world. But we're never coming back to build McDonald's in Kabul, or Burger King in Kandahar.

Hi!

Thank you for taking time to post at length. You present a strong case. I agree with you when it comes to nation-building. The European powers had quite a time for themselves doing that first in Africa and then in the Middle East. They sat down, drew lines on maps and declared the areas within the lines to be 'countries.', Tribal culture, such as we see in the United States between the 'reds' and 'blues', was either beyond their knowledge, their interest, their consideration or perhaps all three.

We can see the price for those actions even unto this present day.

There's an old saying, 'Don't fix it if it ain't broke.' It requires that one can distinguish something that's broken from something that's merely different.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[phoenix2020]

We should help India develop even more robust economic ties to Afghanistan. That will lend natural stability, counter-balance vs. China and at least help keep extremism in check, without military commitments. Replace troops in Afghanistan with occasional joint exercises with the Indian navy.

 

[noonereal]

They will, though, remain my criteria.

You don't think it a bit pompous to advertise this in your posts. Just do it and shut up about it.

Peace brother

 

[Torus34]

You don't think it a bit pompous to advertise this in your posts. Just do it and shut up about it.

Peace brother

Truce, Brother!

;-))

Wishing you a good 2021.

 

[code1211]

Hi!

Thank you for your post. I note that you have not commented on whether we, the United States, should or should not continue with the existing troop withdrawal agreement.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

That seems like the best way to avoid having one more drop of American blood fall on the land there.

 

[Torus34]

That seems like the best way to avoid having one more drop of American blood fall on the land there.

K! Thank you for the answer.

Best to you and yours.

 

[Allan]

As soon as we are gone, the Taliban will kill all the females in Government and take young girls out of school.

Very good point. What has to be decided is when and where the US and allies get involved to mitigate foreign crimes that might well rise to the level of genocide.

A good example of the difficulty in getting it right (in the minds of the public and historians) is SEA. The US was criticized for going into Vietnam, and also criticized for not doing enough in Cambodia.

If the US had not gotten involved in SEA at all where would we be? Would communism have spread further throughout the region? Would Laos, Burma and Thailand be like Vietnam today? Would communism have petered out eventually and/or been less murderous than in Cambodia?

We'll never know but my personal opinion is that standing against communism has been and is the right thing to do. For the same reason it might be worth considering taking a stand against extremist theocracies. They not only murder their own citizens in large numbers but also export their terror.

 

[MamboDervish]

We can see the price for those actions even unto this present day.

There's an old saying, 'Don't fix it if it ain't broke.' It requires that one can distinguish something that's broken from something that's merely different.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Yes, indeed. And even if it really is "broke", it requires understanding that which is within your power to "fix", and that which cannot be fixed by the addition of US military boots on other people's soil. Over the past 150 years we have "improved" other countries civilized development through NGO's, the judicious use of foreign aid, and sanctions supported by allies in the international community.

If history teaches us anything, it should be that the Law of Unintended Consequences is just as ubiquitous as the Law of Gravity.

 

[Allan]

If history teaches us anything, it should be that the Law of Unintended Consequences is just as ubiquitous as the Law of Gravity.

Yes, we're looking at you Iran.

 

[Torus34]

Yes, indeed. And even if it really is "broke", it requires understanding that which is within your power to "fix", and that which cannot be fixed by the addition of US military boots on other people's soil. Over the past 150 years we have "improved" other countries civilized development through NGO's, the judicious use of foreign aid, and sanctions supported by allies in the international community.

If history teaches us anything, it should be that the Law of Unintended Consequences is just as ubiquitous as the Law of Gravity.

Hi!

Yup! On this old globe of ours, both laws are strictly enforced.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

 

[MamboDervish]

Very good point. What has to be decided is when and where the US and allies get involved to mitigate foreign crimes that might well rise to the level of genocide.

A good example of the difficulty in getting it right (in the minds of the public and historians) is SEA. The US was criticized for going into Vietnam, and also criticized for not doing enough in Cambodia.

If the US had not gotten involved in SEA at all where would we be? Would communism have spread further throughout the region? Would Laos, Burma and Thailand be like Vietnam today? Would communism have petered out eventually and/or been less murderous than in Cambodia?

We'll never know but my personal opinion is that standing against communism has been and is the right thing to do. For the same reason it might be worth considering taking a stand against extremist theocracies. They not only murder their own citizens in large numbers but also export their terror.

I suspect the place where we may differ might be in how we define "standing against" .... communism, theocracy, totalitarianism, etc.
There are many ways to influence other nations, and history should teach us that putting combat boots on the ground has rarely been among the best advised. More often than not, that turns out to make the "cure" worse than the disease. Constructive engagement, a phrase coined during the Reagan administration, ultimately results in less bloodshed and better, longer lasting outcomes than destructive engagement.

 

[Allan]

I suspect the place where we may differ might be in how we define "standing against" .... communism, theocracy, totalitarianism, etc.
There are many ways to influence other nations, and history should teach us that putting combat boots on the ground has rarely been among the best advised. More often than not, that turns out to make the "cure" worse than the disease. Constructive engagement, a phrase coined during the Reagan administration, ultimately results in less bloodshed and better, longer lasting outcomes than destructive engagement.

Good points - combats boots on the ground has to be the last resort. I think that you also have to choose your battles (as you defined them above) with the understanding that countries develop at their own pace. Mitigation efforts aren't without cost and need to be focused where there is the best opportunity to effect positive change.

 

[TheParser]

Of course, it's a "problem unsolved."

If one just skims over the history of that country, one will immediately learn that the place is, well, ungovernable.

No doubt the people are perfectly lovely.

But neither the British nor the Russians could "tame" them. Neither can the Americans.

Bin Laden is gone.

So Americans should get the blank out of there.