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Affirmative Action: Is this really necessary?

Is Affirmative Action Necessary?

  • Yes, it is needed help for minorities.

    Votes: 9 42.9%
  • No, it is reverse racism against the majorty.

    Votes: 12 57.1%

  • Total voters
    21

RightOfCenter

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Is this needed anymore and is it reverse racism against white people? First day on site so if there is already a poll on this go ahead and point it out to me please.
 

Conflict

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I'm a caucasian male myself. I don't know the answer to your question. The only answer that I can give is that all humans should be given the same opportunity. I don't necessarily think that we should constitute laws that mandate minority interaction or employment. I think we should affirm the ability of the person to do the best job as required. Nothing more. My answer is no. Affirmative action is not necessary.
 

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reverse racism
What is reverse racism? Racism is just technically discrimination based upon the person's skin-colour, so I don't see how it can be "reverse racism" unless you mean anti-racist.
white people
Do you mean people with white-skin? I don't think people should be categorized as "white" or "black" or "red" or whatever, because of the pigment of their skin. For instance I consider myself human. Many would consider me to be Norwegian/German/Dutch/Danish/Gypsy/Jewish, but I've never been to Norway, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Israel, or Gypsyland, lol, well, the Gypsies orginally came from India, through Arabia and now just wander around Europe, mostly the Eastern part. So why is one catgorized as "African-American" if one has never been to Africa? Why are they often separated from "American"? Another question is, other than being human, what "race" am I supposed to be considered? Indo-European? Indo-Caucasian? Asiatic-Caucasian? I don't understand why humans tend to consider themselves from somewhere they've never been.
 

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While we are at it, let's get rid of legacy admissions to universities since it discriminates against the less connected middle to lower class people. (or us poor folks.)


Blacks are not the only beneficiaries of affirmative action. Right now there is affirmative action for caucasions (rather than Asians such as myself or Indians) in the hard physical sciences such as physics and chemistry. I believe there were only two caucasian males in a sea of asians and Indians in my graduate quantum mechanics and Inorganic chem class.
 
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RightOfCenter

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Comrade Brian said:
What is reverse racism? Racism is just technically discrimination based upon the person's skin-colour, so I don't see how it can be "reverse racism" unless you mean anti-racist.
Anti-racist? How is giving someone a job based on their race anything but racist? Giving someone a job or a spot in at a university based on race is the epitemy of racism and is just as bad as a restaraunt serving only black people or a golf course not admitting women.

Comrade Brian said:
I don't think people should be categorized as "white" or "black" or "red" or whatever, because of the pigment of their skin.
As nice an idea as that it is most people realize that it's not true. Unfortunately TV, movies, and music are constantly portraying most black characters as gangsters or felons and most white people as rich, well off suburbanites.
 

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I'm against affirmative action because I think that race should have no bearing on what chances you have of getting a job.
 

Conflict

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bandaidwoman said:
While we are at it, let's get rid of legacy admissions to universities since it discriminates against the less connected middle to lower class people. (or us poor folks.)


Blacks are not the only beneficiaries of affirmative action. Right now there is affirmative action for caucasions (rather than Asians such as myself or Indians) in the hard physical sciences such as physics and chemistry. I believe there were only two caucasian males in a sea of asians and Indians in my graduate quantum mechanics and Inorganic chem class.
I must admit while studying physical science at CMU I thought I was in Asia. I had a stint at MIT... then I knew I was in the United liberal will of asian scholarships. It was quite alarming.. to say the least. Half of them could barely speak fluent English.
 

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FinnMacCool said:
I'm against affirmative action because I think that race should have no bearing on what chances you have of getting a job.

Your right it shouldn't be.........but it is.

I am going to paste my post from another thread:

" When a study shows that those with black sounding names have a 50% liklihood of even getting the first job interview with their job application (despite equal qualifications.) the barriers are still there.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_6_103/ai_97235741<br%20/>


:
They found that the "White" applicants they created received one response--a call, letter or e-mail--for every 10 resumes mailed, while "Black" applicants with equal credentials received one response for every 15 resumes sent.

The study authors, including University of Chicago associate professor of economics Marianne Bertrand, said the results can solely be attributed to name manipulation.

"Our results so far suggest that there is a substantial amount of discrimination in the job recruiting process," they wrote.



In other words, these folks on the job applications had impeccable references, education etc. but weren't even afforded the respect of a call in compared to an equally qualified white applicant. Affirmative action is an imperfect solution to an persistent problem....the barriers have not gone away,at least for blacks. And once again, I am speaking from what I see down here in the South."
 

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Welcome aboard ROCenter:

I'm actually a bit surprised to see the polling here going the way toward common sense for a change.

Affirmative Action (Quotas) are of course reverse discrimination. Equal Opportunity is completely different than Equal Rights. There is no such thing as equal rights, or there shouldn't be. To assume equal rights through quotas is to set a program (socialism) into effect where everyone becomes a clone of one another. Competition is thus eliminated; the desire to progress is thwarted; ambition is stymied, and a weakened psycological mindset of unionized failures becomes embedded into our society.

Quotas leaves out those possessing the highest IQ's--thus dilutes and weakens the many professional genres that make up our thriving economy. Perhaps these unqualified affirmative action types should get a starting job flipping burgers at McDonalds where they could learn the value of minimum wage as it pertains to their qualifications in life. Once these so-called victims of society learn to hold out their hand to an ever compassionate Uncle Sam--the liberal welfare legacy will continue to dominate.

These quota whores would have competition at McDonalds in securing their starting minimum pay job, because there are teenagers out there like my highly energetic 16 year old son who is looking for part time work at places like Mickey Dee's.
 

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Ok how many people here own a large business ?:2wave:

And how many hire and fire with race in their mind? :roll:


I hire and fire people everyday for a relatively large business since I am senior partner and race plays no role. Guess what, I want my business to make a profit and I want competant people. I am not going to hire someone just because he or she is black or female or purple or disabled to fill some politically correct quota.

Affirmative Action is not supposed to be a "quota" of any sort, although I can't speak for university admissions. As a business owner and one who fires and employ people all the time, I am not constrained by this at all. The idea is basically that if a business is hiring fairly, the employee base should roughly look like that of the community. If a business is all white in a community that is 25% black, then there are probably grounds for at least looking into things. Now, people have misread this basic idea as being "You must have X percentage of minority employees!" but anyone on any side of this issue who makes such a proclamation is simply not understanding the principle as it is intended. And you all obviously do not make hiring decisions everyday.

Let's look at chinese restaurants in inner city Los Angelas. Guess, what, they are mostly chinese, not blacks. Why isn't the ACLU suing their pants off? By your line of reasoning, these business must hire X amount of blacks. Well, guess what, the qualifications call for someone who most likely speaks mandarin or cantonese since most of the employees speak that language primarily (especially the cooks.) The qualifications call for someone who can communicate in the primary language of the cooks (I used to work in a few). If a black with experience in the restaurant business speaks mandarin and asks for a job and gets turned away, then things need to be looked at.


And oh by the way, I tutored calculus and chemistry and physics to undergraduates at Dartmouth university, the ones who slid in on legacy admissions (rich daddies and mommies) were the some of the the worst to tutor (absolutely clueless), but they could pay my $80.00 and hour.

So if you really want to get rid of low IQ or less qualified candidates, you should be lobbying for the end of legacy admissions as well and not just affirmative action. (And guess what, a lot of public institutions still admit legacy admissions)
 
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H

hipsterdufus

ptsdkid said:
Welcome aboard ROCenter:

I'm actually a bit surprised to see the polling here going the way toward common sense for a change.

Affirmative Action (Quotas) are of course reverse discrimination. Equal Opportunity is completely different than Equal Rights. There is no such thing as equal rights, or there shouldn't be. To assume equal rights through quotas is to set a program (socialism) into effect where everyone becomes a clone of one another. Competition is thus eliminated; the desire to progress is thwarted; ambition is stymied, and a weakened psycological mindset of unionized failures becomes embedded into our society.

Quotas leaves out those possessing the highest IQ's--thus dilutes and weakens the many professional genres that make up our thriving economy. Perhaps these unqualified affirmative action types should get a starting job flipping burgers at McDonalds where they could learn the value of minimum wage as it pertains to their qualifications in life. Once these so-called victims of society learn to hold out their hand to an ever compassionate Uncle Sam--the liberal welfare legacy will continue to dominate.

These quota whores would have competition at McDonalds in securing their starting minimum pay job, because there are teenagers out there like my highly energetic 16 year old son who is looking for part time work at places like Mickey Dee's.
Affirmative action is one of the most misunderstood civil rights issue of our time. It's a common misconception that quotas and affirmative action are the same thing. They're not. Affirmative action is a tool to promote diversity and fix inequalities in the workplace. AA legislation is designed to end discrimination in the workplace against women and minorities. AA looks for problems, sets markers to correct them and when the discrimination is corrected AA is eliminated at that workplace.

I think Katrina helped to show that it's not a level playing field out there.
 
H

hipsterdufus

RightOfCenter said:
Anti-racist? How is giving someone a job based on their race anything but racist? Giving someone a job or a spot in at a university based on race is the epitemy of racism and is just as bad as a restaraunt serving only black people or a golf course not admitting women.



As nice an idea as that it is most people realize that it's not true. Unfortunately TV, movies, and music are constantly portraying most black characters as gangsters or felons and most white people as rich, well off suburbanites.
Look at this example: There have been studies done where college applicants with the EXACT same credientials applied. One applicant with a white sounding name is accepted and the other with an African American name is denied. That's discrimination.

About 12% of all college students are black - if a college is 99% white,then Affirmintive Action would take a look at the application process and see if inequalities exist.
 

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hipsterdufus said:
Affirmative action is one of the most misunderstood civil rights issue of our time. It's a common misconception that quotas and affirmative action are the same thing. They're not. Affirmative action is a tool to promote diversity and fix inequalities in the workplace. AA legislation is designed to end discrimination in the workplace against women and minorities. AA looks for problems, sets markers to correct them and when the discrimination is corrected AA is eliminated at that workplace.

I think Katrina helped to show that it's not a level playing field out there.

LMAO.... Not really sure what Katrina showed us except a lot of people that didn't heed the warnings when they should have. BUt thats a whole nother thread. I see no reason why I or anyone should be forced to hire someone based on there skin color. If its my business ad I don't want to hire you who the hell is the government to tell me I have to? As a businessman It would seem the smartest thing to do is to hire the people that are most qualified and that fit into your organization the best. I am there to make money, and if your good at what you do and are a team player then I don't care what friggin color you are. But don't tell me I have to hire you because of your race, thats horseshit
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
But don't tell me I have to hire you because of your race, thats horseshit

You did not read my thread, I do not have to hire someone because of his race, it is not a quota. How do I know? Because I live and breath it everyday. I want to have the best and most successful business practice and practioners so I hire the best. Yes I do have blacks and one Cambodian but there were superiorly qualified. I don't have any hispanics despite a large hispanic population here because none of them were qualified for the job. The ACLU is not breathing down my back. Why, because I did not turn down an qualified hispanic for an less qualified black or white person. (My office manager keeps all resumes of every applicant for five years.)


As a businessman It would seem the smartest thing to do is to hire the people that are most qualified and that fit into your organization the best. I am there to make money, and if your good at what you do and are a team player then I don't care what friggin color you are.
Those are my sentiments exactly.:mrgreen: and that is how I practice.


So let me reiterate, affirmative action in the work place is not there to fill a quota, it is to address and correct obvious discriminatory practices (like if I hired only women because I was a man hater or only whites etc.) Only those who are utterly ignorant of hiring practices (ie: non business owners or human resource personell) should not be telling those of us ( who hire and fire on a regular basis) what affirmative action is or isn't. I know what it is in practice and it sure isn't this quota nonsense everybody keeps spewing out.
 
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Calm2Chaos

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bandaidwoman said:
You did not read my thread, I do not have to hire someone because of his race, it is not a quota. How do I know? Because I live and breath it everyday. I want to have the best and most successful business practice and practioners so I hire the best. Yes I do have blacks and one Cambodian but there were superiorly qualified. I don't have any hispanics despite a large hispanic population here because none of them were qualified for the job. The ACLU is not breathing down my back. Why, because I did not turn down an qualified hispanic for an less qualified black or white person. (My office manager keeps all resumes of every applicant for five years.)




Those are my sentiments exactly.:mrgreen: and that is how I practice.


So let me reiterate, affirmative action in the work place is not there to fill a quota, it is to address and correct obvious discriminatory practices (like if I hired only women because I was a man hater or only whites etc.) Only those who are utterly ignorant of hiring practices (ie: non business owners or human resource personell) should not be telling those of us ( who hire and fire on a regular basis) what affirmative action is or isn't. I know what it is in practice and it sure isn't this quota nonsense everybody keeps spewing out.
First off I never said it was a quota and I didn't mean to infer at any point that it was. But if I am a private business owner with no government contracts I see no reason I can't hire anyone I want. If I want to only hire asians that should be my right as a private business owner. Lets face it your probably not going to be in business hiring based on color and letting the qualified aplicants go. I personally think the concept is completely absurd. I am going to not hire you because of your color even though your going to make me more money then the other guy. But if you want to **** your money and business away that would seem up to you. It just seems to be basic common sense. But I have no doubt there are people out there that still lack that skill....
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
First off I never said it was a quota and I didn't mean to infer at any point that it was. But if I am a private business owner with no government contracts I see no reason I can't hire anyone I want. If I want to only hire asians that should be my right as a private business owner. Lets face it your probably not going to be in business hiring based on color and letting the qualified aplicants go. I personally think the concept is completely absurd. I am going to not hire you because of your color even though your going to make me more money then the other guy. But if you want to **** your money and business away that would seem up to you. It just seems to be basic common sense. But I have no doubt there are people out there that still lack that skill....

Since racism is still rampant in the South, a private bigotted business owner has every right to reject a black who may be more qualified because he just doesn't like his blackness?
Should I disqualify you from a partnership track because you are male even though you bring in the revenue? And you would have no recourse if I my only reason for not advancing you up the corporate ladder is your maleness?

I have that right I suppose if we live in a completely libertarian environment.

But make no bones about it, all business owners make decisons that will profit her company, there is too much crap that brings us down to do so otherwise.

The problem is, how is a educated qualified black man supposed to compete against the inherent racism that still exists (and I posted my study about black names). Caucasians whine about black folks not working and finding jobs...well , if the South had it their way, none of the fine educated blacks would be working except in small pockets such as my business.
 
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bandaidwoman said:
Since racism is still rampant in the South, a private bigotted business owner has every right to reject a black who may be more qualified because he just doesn't like his blackness?
Should I disqualify you from a partnership track because you are male even though you bring in the revenue? And you would have no recourse if I my only reason for not advancing you up the corporate ladder is your maleness?
As a private business owner you should have the right to hire who you want. As a good private business owner you should however hire who is best qualified for the job and fits into your company dynamic the best. As well as promote those that flourish. People and or companies that follow the ofrmer hiring practices are severly limited and probably won't be around all to long


bandaidwoman said:
But make no bones about it, all business owners make decisons that will profit her company, there is too much crap that brings us down to do so otherwise.

The problem is, how is a educated qualified black man supposed to compete against the inherent racism that still exists (and I posted my study about black names). Caucasians whine about black folks not working and finding jobs...well , if the South had it their way, none of the fine educated blacks would be working except in small pockets such as my business.
I think this is a stereotype. And I think if you look in any large company based in the south you will find well qualified black men and woman in important rolls.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
I think this is a stereotype. And I think if you look in any large company based in the south you will find well qualified black men and woman in important rolls.

Thanks to affirmative action. It's an insult to the blacks here to say that the idea of racism is just a stereotype here. I have quite a few patients who refuse to see the black doctor (graduated 4th at Stanford Medical school ) because he is black. I have white patients who insist black nurses call them sir but not the white nurses etc. I'm still called a gook.

In essence you are saying as a person in a positon of power, (business owner) you have every right to excercise your prejudice? The business owners here will choose an equally qualified white over equally qualified blacks anytime. White restaurant owners can only ask for white clientelle? Where does it stop? Once again. look at my study showing equivalent job resumes where blacks were called in for an interview 50% of the time less.

that is the problem with libertarianism, in the ideal world this would be fine but prejudice is still rampant and we need to deal with it
 
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bandaidwoman said:
Thanks to affirmative action. It's an insult to the blacks here to say that the idea of racism is just a stereotype here. I have quite a few patients who refuse to see the black doctor (graduated 4th at Stanford Medical school ) because he is black. I have white patients who insist black nurses call them sir but not the white nurses etc. I'm still called a gook.

In essence you are saying as a person in a positon of power, (business owner) you have every right to excercise your prejudice? The business owners here will choose an equally qualified white over equally qualified blacks anytime. White restaurant owners can only ask for white clientelle? Where does it stop? Once again. look at my study showing equivalent job resumes where blacks were called in for an interview 50% of the time less.

that is the problem with libertarianism, in the ideal world this would be fine but prejudice is still rampant and we need to deal with it

Do you actually think AA does anything whatsoever to curb prejudice or racism? Forcing someone to do something they don't want to doesn't stop the problem, it just buries it under a new name. Not sure how much I want to work for someone that dispises me anyway, seems like a pretty shitty work environment.
 

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Calm2Chaos said:
Do you actually think AA does anything whatsoever to curb prejudice or racism? Forcing someone to do something they don't want to doesn't stop the problem, it just buries it under a new name. Not sure how much I want to work for someone that dispises me anyway, seems like a pretty shitty work environment.

what if the CEO is non prejudiced but his human resources director (in charge of hiring practices) is?. What do you think keeps him or her in line? Do you think the CEO of a large company personally reviews resumes for every position in his or her company? My offiice manager is an excellent case. She is prejudiced but fantastically smart and innovative.(She is too professional to show it around the office but I know her personally.) When an opening opens up and she prescreens people she knows how I feel and she knows AA will be looking over her shoulder. I actually had a hispanic try to sue my office using AA but she lost because both my office manager and I proved she did not have the qualifications with a comprable white person. The lawyer actually said AA helped me because its injunction is very specific. ( I personally cannot screen all resumes of the 80 postitions in my office and company. )
 

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I voted yes. Of course people shouldn't get a job or admission to school because of their race. Race does play an issue though for some employers. That is what brought affirmative action about. It is not a perfect solution. I worked for a company that had quotas to meet so if a position was between equally qualified people, the minority got the position. This is not fair. That said, I think that racism excluding minorities from getting jobs outweighs that. The world isn't fair. Good looking people will get the job over an equally qualified ugly person. I don't advocate ugly (not that they are a minority) quotas. I just see it as the best attempt at leveling the playing field for minorities. Like Bandaidwoman said, people with "black" sounding names are 50% less likely to be interviewed.
 

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OF COURSE reverse-racism programs, affectionately called "affirmative action" by their fans, are quota systems. They may not have quota's defined explicitly, but once the legal hacks and the activist judges get done, it invariably turns out that the only way to determine if the RR program is "effective" is by counting heads and looking at skin, or religion, or whatever the scam is supposed to be.

====

Reminds me of a tale a former employer told about his father, who owned a small factory. In the early 70's a group of poverty pimps came to him and told him that he didn't have a racially balanced workforce and that if he didn't adjust things so that he had twelve blacks on the staff, they'd shut him down in court.

The owner thought a bit, and called his secretary in. "I want every black employee in my office, NOW!"

Once all the staff was culled, there were 13 black employees in the boss's office. He looked at them, jerked a thumb at the poverty pimps, and said "these clowns say I must have 12 black employess. There's 13 of you. Which one of you should I fire?"

The thirteen employees didn't react sympathetically to the suggestion, and they properly directed their ire against the poverty pimps, who left. No one was fired.

An apocryphal tale, with absolutely no referential grounding, but amusing.
 

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:
OF COURSE reverse-racism programs, affectionately called "affirmative action" by their fans, are quota systems. They may not have quota's defined explicitly, but once the legal hacks and the activist judges get done, it invariably turns out that the only way to determine if the RR program is "effective" is by counting heads and looking at skin, or religion, or whatever the scam is supposed to be.

====

Reminds me of a tale a former employer told about his father, who owned a small factory. In the early 70's a group of poverty pimps came to him and told him that he didn't have a racially balanced workforce and that if he didn't adjust things so that he had twelve blacks on the staff, they'd shut him down in court.

The owner thought a bit, and called his secretary in. "I want every black employee in my office, NOW!"

Once all the staff was culled, there were 13 black employees in the boss's office. He looked at them, jerked a thumb at the poverty pimps, and said "these clowns say I must have 12 black employess. There's 13 of you. Which one of you should I fire?"

The thirteen employees didn't react sympathetically to the suggestion, and they properly directed their ire against the poverty pimps, who left. No one was fired.

An apocryphal tale, with absolutely no referential grounding, but amusing.
Nice tale yes indeedy....... But once again, AA is not a quota so the boss would have won in court.

This is exactly what the hispanic that sued my office thought (I have no hispanics despite a community with a high percentage of them). I did not hire her because she was not qualified compared to the black or white equivalent resume. So AA saved my ass.
 

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bandaidwoman said:
Nice tale yes indeedy....... But once again, AA is not a quota so the boss would have won in court.

This is exactly what the hispanic that sued my office thought (I have no hispanics despite a community with a high percentage of them). I did not hire her because she was not qualified compared to the black or white equivalent resume. So AA saved my ass.
Without Affirmative Action and all the other unconstitutional racially motivated laws, what grounds would the complainant have had to sue?

Can someone now explain where on earth the government gets the authority to tell private individuals who they can and cannot hire?

Ground your answer in stated assumptions, please.
 

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Can someone now explain where on earth the government gets the authority to tell private individuals who they can and cannot hire?
Sure, it's called civil rights. It's called equal opportunity. It has something to do with everyone having an equal chance to persue life, liberty, and happiness.
 
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